Spells in MUltipowers?

[Michael Hopcroft]

One of the conversions floating around the boards uses a Multipower system to give mages their spells. Is this a good way to use a Multipower in a fantasy game, or does it make mages prohibitively powerful (in that nobody wants to play anything else)?

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I was actually thinking that one way to reign it in would be to have the Requires a Roll then attack it to the "magic" skill at a -1 per 5 active points. That way, they can have a zillion spells, but regardless of how many spells they actually know, they would have to "work harder" to fire off a more powerful spell.

 

Also, if it looks like spells are still way too powerful, slap the "increased END" limitation on the multi-power.

 

What do you all think?

[Old Man]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Well, something must be done. Depending on the multipower, the mage is getting either 80% or 90% off the cost of his spells. It is very easy to get 40AP spells down to 1 point in an ultra slot. I can do a lot of damage to the campaign with a dozen 40AP spells. Yes, I also have to pay for the pool and the skill roll, but that just encourages me to buy as many slots as possible in order to get the most out of that point investment.

 

Just for grins, here is the multipower from the last FH multipower mage I played, a necromancer:

 

---

13 40pt. sorcery multipower (-0.5) requires a skill roll (-0.25) incantations (-0.25) gestures (-0.25) concentrate 1/2 DCV (-0.5) full phase to cast (-0.25) not on holy ground

 

1u 37 weaken: 3d6 suppress str, continuous, 0 end

1u 37 strike blind: 5d6 flash, 1 hex area

1u 39 poltergeist: 26 str. telekinesis, affects whole object

1u 37 theft of life: 1.5d6 transfer body to end (25), usable at range (+1/2)

1u 30 detect magic: discriminatory, analyze, ranged, targeting

1u 38 animate dead: summon 1x 85-point zombie (17), expanded class: based on corpse (+1/4) slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 40 unlife regeneration: 4d6 simplified healing

1u 40 summon: 4x 50-point demon, slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 37 feeblemind: 5d6 suppress int, 0 end

1u 32 sense life: detect living creatures (10), discriminatory (5) analyze (5) ranged (5) targeting (10)

1u 37 strength of the damned: 5d6 succor str, 0 end

1u 5 shadow walk: teleport 1" (2) safe blind (+1/4) megascale 1" = 1000 km (+1) full turn to cast (-1/2)

1u 37 glimpse of the abyss: aid 3d6 to end, fade 1/turn

1u 40 foul gust: 35" leaping, accurate (40)

1u 40 spirit form: desolid

---

[Markdoc]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I use multipowers for mages (also for non-mages) in my game and it hasn't been an issue.

 

There's some caveats, though: all spells cost Mana (Long Term Endurance) so the mage wears himself out with constant spell casting: if he casts spells when out of END, he takes BOD, so it is literally possible to kill yourself by casting too many spells. In addition, all spells require a skill roll (-1/10 points) a full phase and concentration (1/2 DCV). Many styles of magic - but not all - also require gestures and incantations

 

That makes mages very powerful (they're stacking a minimum of -2 on their multipower) but also fragile: it's hard to cast successfully when someone is right in your face. In addition, I (as GM) make up all the spells and control access to them, usually via in-game restrictions: you can't learn "fireball" if you get your magic from the temple of the sea goddess (a source of irritation to one player in my game: she's had to settle for drowning foes one by one by making water in their lungs ) That stops them optimising their multipowers with a perfect defence/attack/other combo ... or at least makes it harder.

 

So here's the multipower from the most power (in active points) mage in my game. He gets his magic through the cult of the local fertility/sea goddess and thus has a mix of weather, divination and body-affecting spells, as her areas of influence are secrets, the weather - especially sea weather and fertility.

 

23 Cult spells: Multipower, 64-point reserve, (64 Active Points); all slots Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼)

1u 1) Aid the Injured: Healing 1 BODY, Usable By Other (+¼), Persistent (+½) (17 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 ¼), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 2

Notes: This spell can be used to dramatically increase the healing rate of the target, restoring 1 BODY for each turn the spell is in effect. However, this a dangerous spell because the damage is not actually "healed" - it is transferred to the caster, who must then heal himself. The caster spends the number of END needed to maintain the regeneration for the required number of turns at the time the spell is cast. Restoring a large amount of BODY in this manner can be quite exhausting to the caster, in addition to the damage suffered by the caster.

1u 2) Breathe Underwater: LS (Safe in High Pressure; Safe in Intense Cold; Self-Contained Breathing), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (26 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 3

Notes: The caster casts this spell on a group of people that he wishes to enchant. If the spell is cast successfully, the entire group of people will be able to breathe underwater as long as they stay close to the mage. Not only does the spell allow the characters to breathe underwater but it also protects them from the crushing pressures and cold temperatures found at deep depths.

1u 3) Calm Air: Change Environment 8" radius, Mobile (+½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -¾), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼)

Notes: Within the 8" radius where this spell is cast, the air around the Wizard becomes calmed and disturbance by outside winds is all but eliminated. The calm air remains centered on the caster even when he is moving. This spell has almost no effect on power based winds.

2u 4) Calm: Change Environment 32" radius, Mobile (+½), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (60 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -¾), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼)

Notes: This spell is useful for smoothing choppy seas around the ship, or settling harsh crosswinds. Rain will continue, but the effects of storm winds, gusts, violent waves, currents and rapids, natural lightning and other such phenomena will cease. The radius of this spell is large enough to aid several ships if they are close together.

1u 5) Create Ka: Duplication (creates 133-point form), Cannot Recombine (+0), Usable By Other (+¼), Altered Duplicates (100%; +1) (60 Active Points); Gradual Effect (1 Day; -1 ¾), OAF Bulky (Focus (drop of blood from person to be duplicated and tub of clay); -1 ½), Free-willed (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼)

Notes: This spell creates a copy of an individual from a man-shaped mass of clay and a drop of blood from the individual to be duplicated. The Ka takes a day to grow and when complete, is not under any compulsion. It is entirely free-willed, but at least at creation, it will share the memories and mindset of the individual it was created from. Over time, however, it may diverge from the original. The Ka is born entirely naked and has no possessions.

1u 6) Detect Magic: Detect A Single Thing 17- (Unusual Group) (7 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: The caster simply views an object closely (it must be within 1"). If it is indeed magical, the object will seem to the caster to glow. The spell reveals no information about the nature or power of the enchantment.

1u 7) Detect Magic: A Large Class Of Things 13- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze (20 Active Points); Conditional Power Requires Mana (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼), Costs END to cast (-¼)

Notes: This spell allows the caster to handle an object and deterine if it is magical. He can deterine the type of magic and its strength and possibly even the specific spell on it, but he will not gain knowledge of any activation words or rituals needed (if any) to activate or control the magic.

1u 8) Detect Weather Manipulation: Detect A Single Thing 13- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory (8 Active Points); will not function indoors or in closed environments (-1), Costs Endurance (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: With this spell, the caster may determine if the surrounding weather conditions are the result of natural causes or magic. Furthermore, if magic is being used to manipulate the weather, the caster can determine what kind of magic is being used and how powerful it is.

1u 9) Discover Flaw: Find Weakness 11- with All Attacks (30 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 3

Notes: The caster of this spell has the ability to see the forces which protect an enemy and to analyze those protective powers to the fullest. There is no room for error in the practise of magic, and this spell will make sure the same goes for the battlefield.

2u 10) Dispel Magic: Dispel 12d6, any Magic power one at a time (any single magic spell; +¼) (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 4

Notes: When this spell contacts any target bearing some form of dweomer, it will attempt to remove it. Magic items that are quenched by this spell lose their power permanently.

1u 11) Enhanced healing (Regeneration): Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Persistent (+½) (20 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 20 Minutes (-2), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Self Only (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼), Costs END to cast (-¼)

Notes: This spell enables the caster to augment his own natural healing ability, so that they heal 3 BOD in an hour.

1u 12) Fog Bank: Darkness to Sight Group 1" radius, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +¼) (12 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Limited Power Won't work in very dry conditions (-¼), Limited Effect Normal Sight, IR Perception (-¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: The caster causes the moisture to condense out of the air around a target, causing an extremely thick cloud to form which blocks normal sight and vision that relies on heat.

1u 13) Know Moon: Detect A Single Thing 13- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Range (13 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: This spell allows the caster to know the direction and current phase of the moon. This in turn will allow him to know the approximate period of the month within a day or two. If he can determine the time of the day, then he will also be able to orientate himself. Finally, he can determine the current state of the tides and the effectiveness of lunar magic.

1u 14) Levitate: Flight 5", Usable By Other (+¼), Ranged (+½) (17 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Levitation (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½) END: 2

Notes: When this spell is cast, the target is surrounded by a rushing wind and is able to gently climb and descend, but not move horizontally. The user must concentrate intensely to maintain this power

2u 15) Mirror Twin: Extra-Dimensional Movement (to Mirror Space) plus transdimensional clairsentience (Single Dimension), Custom Adder, Position Shift, Usable By Other (+¼) (62 Active Points); OIF Fragile (Focus (any Mirror); -¾), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Costs END to cast (-¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 6

Notes: This spell allows the caster (or one other) to enter a mirror. Once there they are in "mirror space" a timeless, spaceless zone where nothing exists except millions of tiny windows: mirrors looking back into the real world. The spell includes a transdimensional vision spell, so that people in Mirrorspace can see into the real world. A person in Mirrorspace can see out of any mirror, but there is no geographical arrangement, so any given mirror might look anywhere. However if the person "knows" a mirror - ie: they have seen it in the real world - then they can look out from it. However there is one catch. Time and space do not exist in mirrorspace - only mind. That means that a person there does not physically age or change. However it also means that they canot cast spells or manipulate any objects they may have brought with them. That means the only way out of Mirrorspace is for someone in the real world to voluntarily enter the mirror and swap places with the person in Mirrorspace: hence the name of the spell. It is said, however, that certan non-euclidian entities can enter (and leave) mirrorspace at will.

2u 16) Neutralize Poison: Dispel 17d6, any [special effect] power one at a time (all poisons and venoms; +¼) (64 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 ¼), No Range (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 6

Notes: This spell allows the caster to neutralize any natural poison or venom.

2u 17) Rain Storm (Part 1): Suppress 2d6, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +¼), Costs END Only To Activate (+¼), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +½), Custom Modifier (All Fire Powers; +2) (40 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 ½), Custom Modifier (Will not function in Enclosed Environments; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 4

Notes: This spell allows the caster to cause a torrential downpour in the area around the caster. These rains quench the flames of any fires in the area. The rains take a minute to summon and are accompanied by boiling dark clouds which assemble above the caster with unnatural speed. The rain will last as long as the caster concentrates on it

- 18) Rain Storm (Part 2): Change Environment 1" radius, -2 to Sight Group PER Rolls, -1 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Multiple Combat Effects, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +¼) (20 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 2

Notes: This slot is the second part of the rain storm spell and is automatically activated when part 1 is cast. The torrential downpour makes it harder to see, and all dexterity rolls for things such as climbing, balancing etc, plus all distance combat rolls are at -1

1u 19) Safe Shallows: Active Sonar (Hearing Group) (15 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: Shallows can be treacherous things, hiding rocks and sand bars, which can run a ship aground. The Safe Shallows spell exists so the wizard can sense the sometimes labyrinthine routes of submerged topography. It is equally effective when navigating through thick fog, dark rivers, and other conditions when plain sight is useless.

1u 20) Seek Mind: Mind Scan 6d6, +5 ECV (40 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 ½), Concentration (0 DCV; -½), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Requires Mana (-½) END: 4

Notes: A mage casting this spell may seek out a mind familiar to him. Seek Mind tends to give only vague hints about where the individual is, although a particularly lucky magician may be able to find out more.

1u 21) Water Sense: Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group), Discriminatory (27 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 3

Notes: This spell allows the Wizard to sense movements and density fluctuations in the surrounding water. This form of vision allows him to see, even in total darkness, the types of creatures moving through the water nearby, the strength and direction of currents, and any fresh or salt water influx.

1u 22) Wave Rider: Swimming +10" (12" total) (10 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Costs END to cast (-¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: With this spell, the caster gives the target the power to move swiftly though the water with the grace of a dolphin.

1u 23) Weather Vision: N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (10 Active Points); Custom Modifier (Only to see normally in poor weather conditions; -1), Costs Endurance to cast (-¼), Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 1

Notes: This spell allows the caster to see normally in any kind of weather. Thus the user can see through conditions such as fogs and heavy rains without difficulty. Many Weather Mages learn this spell so that they are not hampered by their own spells.

1u 24) Wind Control: Telekinesis (10 STR), Explosion (+½) (22 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-½), Extra Time (Full Phase, -½), Requires Mana (-½), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼) END: 2

Notes: This spell allows the caster to create and control winds. These winds are very powerful and are even capable of lifting a fully sized man into the air.

 

This character is an important part of the group, and has saved the whole group many a time, but in no way dominates play.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Just for grins, here is the multipower from the last FH multipower mage I played, a necromancer:

 

---

13 40pt. sorcery multipower (-0.5) requires a skill roll (-0.25) incantations (-0.25) gestures (-0.25) concentrate 1/2 DCV (-0.5) full phase to cast (-0.25) not on holy ground

 

1u 37 weaken: 3d6 suppress str, continuous, 0 end

1u 37 strike blind: 5d6 flash, 1 hex area

1u 39 poltergeist: 26 str. telekinesis, affects whole object

1u 37 theft of life: 1.5d6 transfer body to end (25), usable at range (+1/2)

1u 30 detect magic: discriminatory, analyze, ranged, targeting

1u 38 animate dead: summon 1x 85-point zombie (17), expanded class: based on corpse (+1/4) slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 40 unlife regeneration: 4d6 simplified healing

1u 40 summon: 4x 50-point demon, slavishly loyal (+1)

1u 37 feeblemind: 5d6 suppress int, 0 end

1u 32 sense life: detect living creatures (10), discriminatory (5) analyze (5) ranged (5) targeting (10)

1u 37 strength of the damned: 5d6 succor str, 0 end

1u 5 shadow walk: teleport 1" (2) safe blind (+1/4) megascale 1" = 1000 km (+1) full turn to cast (-1/2)

1u 37 glimpse of the abyss: aid 3d6 to end, fade 1/turn

1u 40 foul gust: 35" leaping, accurate (40)

1u 40 spirit form: desolid

---

 

This highlights the issue I often see for MP spellcasters. Every spell is brought to the AP limit of the framework (one exception in all of the slots above - and why not slap some Extra Mass on the Teleport, since it won't cost anything anyway).

 

Why should I build the Foul Gust, for example, to be 20" Leaping when I have the points to make it 35" instead? All spells end up at the same power level as a result. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on the effect you are looking for in your game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

One things about Spell Multipowers is that it makes spell costs similar to Martial Maneuver costs.

 

It all depends on how you want to set up magic in the campaign too. The temptation is to simply push all spells to the AP Max of the MP, which really makes it feel like Supers In Fantasy sometimes. There are a number of methods to handle things like this:

 

1) Spell Lists, spells are set, if you have a 30pt, 50pt, or 100pt MP it doesn't matter - Mages Missile will always be just a 1D6KA.

2) Spell slots require Flexible Slots, no Fixed Slots. Increases cost, but will reduce the swiss-army-mage

3) Standard Spell Limitations: Genstures, Incantations, Requires A Roll, & Expendable Focus requirements can really pull magic users back from the realm of overpowering, add in Extra Time (Full Phase) and you do it even more.

4) "Spell Levels" - goes with Spell Lists well, spells increase in power in set steps of AP Power, no in between steps and the MP increases in set increments.

 

Or combine aspects of the above. And always feel free to say "That spell doesn't exist in this campaign"

[Old Man]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

This character is an important part of the group, and has saved the whole group many a time, but in no way dominates play.

 

That's because he's built inefficiently. Three Change Environments? Five Detects? Detect phase of the moon--really? And a TK that could be 24 STR for no additional points. No Aids, no Succors, no strong movement powers--not even a force field.

[Old Man]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Why should I build the Foul Gust, for example, to be 20" Leaping when I have the points to make it 35" instead? All spells end up at the same power level as a result. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on the effect you are looking for in your game.

 

I consider that to be a feature, since I've seen an awful lot of artillery piece mages without it--characters that dump all their points into a force field and a big RKA and call it good. The MP encourages players to flesh out the spellbook some, just to get maximum usefulness out of the MP point investment.

 

Unfortunately, you then encounter the fundamental flaw with Hero As A Universal System, which is that powers aren't costed right for fantasy. Buying that Force Field up to 40 points is kind of a problem.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Unfortunately' date=' you then encounter the fundamental flaw with Hero As A Universal System, which is that powers aren't costed right for fantasy. Buying that Force Field up to 40 points is kind of a problem.[/quote']

 

For some fantasy games that could be perfectly acceptable.

 

I disagree completely with your statement. Things are costed against each other - you just have to know what limits to set for any one given Hero Game and stick to them. There's no reason that the "largest defense" has to cost a lot of points.

 

I think too many people get stuck in the thought-process that "I have 50 Points, I must use all 50 Points" instead of actually reasoning from effect and building to campaign parameters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

For some fantasy games that could be perfectly acceptable.

 

I disagree completely with your statement. Things are costed against each other - you just have to know what limits to set for any one given Hero Game and stick to them. There's no reason that the "largest defense" has to cost a lot of points.

 

I think too many people get stuck in the thought-process that "I have 50 Points, I must use all 50 Points" instead of actually reasoning from effect and building to campaign parameters.

 

While I generally agree with your comment, if the Multipower Mage has a 50 AP pool, and his other spells are all 50 AP, why would he not build the added spell to the same 50 AP? Particularly, if each slot costs only 1 point regardless of the AP of the slot, why build a +6/+6 Force Field? Now, form, I'd be more inclined to build that Force Field, but buy it outside the MP so it's available when I want to use the other 50 AP multipower slots.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

It all depends on the campaign. How the campaign is built to work, how magic works (or any other SFX), campaign parameters.

 

Build Philosophy is, IMO, a useless set of arguments without the campaign in question being defined.

 

Why wouldn't you build the force field spell outside the MP? Because you can't buy spells outside Spell Multi-Powers.

Why isn't it all 50AP? Because the campaign has a limit on defenses.

[azato]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

For my soon to be launched campaign I am trying something which I am curious to see how ti will work out.

* Multi-powers are built on "levels" Level 1 goes up to 30 AP. LEvel 2 is from 31 AP to 60 AP.

* There are different Categories of lists...Elemental, Life, Meta ETC

* For each Category you need to buy a separate Multi Power.

* I am running magic skill rolls for mages and ego skill rolls for those who come by it "naturally".

* Increased skill levels in magic will run similar to Combat Skill levels.

* I make the spell lists.

* While there are spells to protect vs different types of magic and elemental stuff...There will (probably) be no magic spell that will directly protect against physical attacks (there are walls that can be generated, but not "armor spell")

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I can see a D&D style game where starting wizards get a small MP for their magic and they can put their earned XP into growing it and adding spell slots. But it probably wouldn't work very low because experience growth in Hero is rather slow by comparison to what it is in D&D style games. (Which is part of Hero's charm when you think about it the right way.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I use the Multipower method in my own games, and it tends to work out very well. I like to have games where mages can grow in power considerably and I feel that a Multipower handles this best. I also like mages to be able to gain new spells fairly frequently and the significantly reduced cost of spells in Multipower slots helps to facilitate this.

[Markdoc]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

This highlights the issue I often see for MP spellcasters. Every spell is brought to the AP limit of the framework (one exception in all of the slots above - and why not slap some Extra Mass on the Teleport, since it won't cost anything anyway).

 

Why should I build the Foul Gust, for example, to be 20" Leaping when I have the points to make it 35" instead? All spells end up at the same power level as a result. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on the effect you are looking for in your game.

 

I view it as a bug - one reason I suggest GMs build the spells is to prevent precisely this effect!

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

One things about Spell Multipowers is that it makes spell costs similar to Martial Maneuver costs.

 

Ayup. I allow characters to have non-magic power frameworks (and most non-spellcasters PCs in my current game do) to take advantage of precisely that fact.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I can see a D&D style game where starting wizards get a small MP for their magic and they can put their earned XP into growing it and adding spell slots. But it probably wouldn't work very low because experience growth in Hero is rather slow by comparison to what it is in D&D style games. (Which is part of Hero's charm when you think about it the right way.)

 

Actually - from experience - it works fine at low levels simply because - as you noted in another thread, you can do a lot with just a few points. If you have a 20 point MP with the usual "mage" limitations, 1Xp gets you a new spell. And if the game is running at low points, then even low powered magic is incredibly useful. One of my favourite archetypes for FH is the fighter or rogue with a small spell multipower or VPP, simply because it gives you so many extra options.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

It all depends on the campaign. How the campaign is built to work, how magic works (or any other SFX), campaign parameters.

 

Build Philosophy is, IMO, a useless set of arguments without the campaign in question being defined.

 

Why wouldn't you build the force field spell outside the MP? Because you can't buy spells outside Spell Multi-Powers.

Why isn't it all 50AP? Because the campaign has a limit on defenses.

 

All true. The character is simply forced to buy the pool up by the small Force Field AP (reduced for the common spell limitations) and pay a "character tax" of 1 point to add the FF slot. Of course, having done that, may as well have a spell or two boosted to the full MP pool for use when the FF isn't needed, or when the extra boost is crucial.

 

Or just wear armor rather than use a force field/spell for defenses.

 

I view it as a bug - one reason I suggest GMs build the spells is to prevent precisely this effect!

 

Definitely a solution. Can be frustrating for the player to realize he can almost never use all the points in the pool (whether as a single spell or a group of spells working at the same time).

[Markdoc]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Definitely a solution. Can be frustrating for the player to realize he can almost never use all the points in the pool (whether as a single spell or a group of spells working at the same time).

 

That hasn't been a problem. Generally the MP is big enough to hold the largest spell, so when the pool is used for that, by definition it's maxxed out - and using several smaller spells simultaneously often soaks up the whole pool.

But I think the major reason it hasn't been a problem is that the mindset is different. Spells are presented - and used - as discrete entities, so the player is "Casting water breathing" not "Using my pool to get some life support". This is even more true when using a system like mine where spells are - by definition - ultras. If you have a 40 point ultra slot in a 40 point MP, it locks out the whole MP even if you are only using it at a reduced power.

 

cheers, Mark

[phookz]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Thread resurrection. Mark brings up a vital point that I think many have overlooked. Buying every slot as a fixed/ultra slot at the maximum points for the pool effectively locks out the pool to one spell at a time.

 

On top of this, I think the primary reason that players don't always buy to maximum point values is GM oversight. With great power comes great responsibility, and that responsibility is to stay within campaign guidelines, and it falls on the shoulders of GMs and players alike. Campaign guidelines go beyond active point limitations, and I like Markdoc's approach of controlling the creation of spells. I would rep him but can't seem to figure out how to do it on the mobile version of the forums. I'm not saying that GM defined spells are right for every campaign, but it can be a very effective way to contol power inflation.

[Moondrake]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

The main concern with MPs at fantasy level seems to be balance of power. But that isn't just a problem with power frameworks, it can be a problem with many aspects of the game. In our group there are four basic ways we manage this issue.

1. Caps. Some of the GMs set caps in advance on the major game elements. I personally prefer this approach as I like to build my character to fit the game rather than trying to retrofit later. This generally includes an AP cap on powers, a cap on combined CV and a cap on DEF.

2. GM review. The GMs review the characters prior to play and ask the players whose characters are poorly balanced to make changes.

3. Sliding scale. The GM builds challenges along a sliding scale and characters have an opportunity to take on opponents similar to their power level. This works best when you are pitting teams against one another, the concept of a personal nemesis on the enemy team is an adventure trope. It works especially well when the enemy team is built with the PCs in mind, flirty opposite for the rogue, honorable one for the knight, a worthy opponent for the martial artist, a cipher for the mage, a trickster for the thief.

4. Peer pressure. Play a wombat if you like but nobody's giving you any props for winning a fight when you are playing a combat monster. You want glory, you have to earn it the hard way.

Most of our games employ a blend of these things, and still there are balance issues. But by and large we generally have a pretty well-balanced PC group.

[Ice9]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

I haven't had many balance problems with Multipowers, but they do have certain issues when used for spells. The biggest, in my opinion, is that limitations hardly matter.

For instance, if I have these spells:

 

Binding Agreement - Mind Control 10d6, Extra Time (1 minute), Incantations (must lay out agreement), Conditional Power (target must agree voluntarily)

Just Do It - Mind Control 10d6

 

Then the first one should definitely cost less points (or be more powerful) than the second. But in a Multipower, it's only going to cost 3-4 points less, at most. And that's not good, because I find spells of the first variety often more interesting, and I'd like to encourage their use. Sure, you can build them that way whether it saves you points or not, but I don't want players to be effectively penalized for picking interesting power limits.

[Old Man]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

Granularity is definitely a problem, and it's the reason why I favored using elemental controls instead of multipowers for FH. (I guess that would be Unified Power now.) I've expounded at length on this subject in other threads, but ECs give almost a 50% cost break to spells, whereas multipowers work out to an 80-90% cost break. The unimportance of limitations is a result of that huge cost break.

 

That said, limitations do matter in multipowers when applied to the MP itself. Unfortunately what you get then is homogenization where every spell in the framework has almost exactly the same limitations, which may or may not be desirable.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

In some cases the uniformity and homoginization of Limitations helps define the flavor of magic, and is desired.

 

All mages must speak their spells, or all maged burn up portions of magic powders to cast magic.

 

In many cases you may not get a choice on having Limitations and the difference of "not having" and "having" is a non-topic, removing the "but the slot is no cheaper with them..." argument completely.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Spells in MUltipowers?

 

If you want to encourage different limitations on different spell slots in a Multipower, put a Variable Limitation on the pool cost but let each slot define that limitation separately. I am pretty sure this is not legal strictly speaking, but I have had a number of characters in my campaigns with just such a set-up and I find it works well. It keeps the Multipower from being too cheap since the Variable Limitation only gives you half as much limitation point-wise and forces players to be creative about defining their spells.