LOTR thoughts

[Badger]

On one thread in the NGD, a post got me thinking of some possibly stuff in the Fourth Age.

 

In Gondor, with Aragorn taking over after the War. I was thinking, that if I was a citizen of Gondor, I wouldnt be particularly thrilled. From "my" perspective the kings ran out and abandoned us. While the stewards stuck it out with us. And then some upstart in Aragorn just comes in and gets a crown. Now Aragorn, proved himself in the war. So, "I" wouldnt mind him staying. Maybe even as a general. Just not the ruler.

 

Anyhow, I got to wondering what if a group of Gondorians went into exile in protest of the king's return. Possibly led by a distant relative of the Steward line (because Faramir is obviously out). I am just making idle campaign fodder really. But, this got me brainstorming anyway.

 

I was wondering where they could go. Aragorn is likely wildly popular. So, many places to the west would be out. The east holds longtime bitter enemies. Where could they go as a sanctuary? (werent there "lost" groups of elves and dwarves in the east on the other side of the Easterlings?)

[Nolgroth]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

North. Even though the kingdom of Gondor eventually spreads its influence northward (as I recall), north is the only place that these exiles might find a place to settle. They might even form some sort of kingdom based on the ruins of some previous Numenorean off-shoot kingdom. Honestly though, the 4th Age is almost completely unexplored. Pick a spot.

[Darbor]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

How about south and east? Wherever the people in the boats came from. I think that was south and then east.

[Lucius]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Middle Earth in this period is really very empty, with a lot of wilderness.

 

If nothing else, kicking some tribe of Goblins out is a possibility.

 

However, I have to ask - how unhappy do you have to be with Aragorn as king, to prefer carving a home out of the wilderness or fighting Goblins instead?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if Tom Bombadil has a room for rent

[Barwickian]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I can think of three broad possibilities:

 

(1) Go to be with others of your kind - this would mean Umbar, where the descendants of the losing side in Gondor's Kinstrife (aka the Corsairs) went to live with the descendants of the evil Numenoreans who durvived the fall of Numenor. I think the Corsairs' numbers were fairly heavily depleted in the War of the Ring, but there's bound to be some still there.

 

(2) Strike out on your own - you could go far (east of Mordor or south of Harad) or somewhat closer (Rhovanion or Rhun would probably some have some space, and are reasonably temperate). Hollin or even Arnor could be a possibility, even though Aragorn's Gondor would claim hegemony.

 

(3) Stay and work for change - I can see a lot of fun in a game where they PCs are rebels against Aragorn's rule. They might even be an embarassment to Faramir by working to put him on the throne.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

In his letters, Tolkien says that he'd begun to sketch some stories set in the fourth age under the kingship of Aragorn, but that with the great enemy gone, the antagonists were mainly born from internal strife and division. He wasn't so much a fan of that and set these ideas aside. George R.R. Martin, on the other hand, starts his stories essentially where Tolkien's leave off, though his characters typically exhibit far less unalloyed virtue. I wonder what a succession war in Gondor's extended realms would look like? It would probably isolate men from Elves and Dwarves at the very least, or perhaps there would be new alliances and political lines drawn on the map of middle earth.

[Lucius]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

So, did the Goblins, Trolls, and so forth, just drop dead when Sauron did?

 

Seems to me that even though on a less epic scale, there would still be antagonists around.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Still no palindromedaries, though.

[Savinien]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I ran a game at Herocentral (and sporadically do so with my ftf group) that used this storyline a bit. You can search this forum for details. The plot is extremely convoluted but here is a tidbit: A rebellious group called the Sons of Denethor had a distant relative of the King kidnapped by agents of Herumor (Dark Lord) hoping to start a rebellion and remove the King and return to the age of Wardens. I started my game 250 Fourth Age.

 

The majority of the Sauron/Saruman antagonists were indeed removed by the White Lady and her Riders. Aragorn/Ellendil almost immediately began to go after these threats as well as shore up possible enemies to the East and South. Then, he began to rebuild civilaztion to the North and West.

[Savinien]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Here are two of the aforementioned threads.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/25021

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/43975

 

I started another game more recently set in Helm's Deep. I posited a community consisting mostly of Rohan burgeoning behind the Deeping Wall and trading with Aglarond. The two players played Legendary type figures, one Rohan and the other a Dwarf. We only had a few sessions but fun was had by all.

[Old Man]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

There's still lots of places to come up with more epic antagonists. Angband is presumably sunk but the Tol Fuin isn't, and it was under the control of the Shadow when it was the Taur-nu-Fuin. All sorts of baddies could be roaming around the far north. There are still infestations of wights in Arnor and goblins and giants in the Misty Mountains, and Sauron is thought to have had a hideout east of Rhun, from whence he originally came.

[Barwickian]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

There's still lots of places to come up with more epic antagonists. Angband is presumably sunk but the Tol Fuin isn't' date=' and it was under the control of the Shadow when it was the Taur-nu-Fuin. All sorts of baddies could be roaming around the far north. There are still infestations of wights in Arnor and goblins and giants in the Misty Mountains, and Sauron is thought to have had a hideout east of Rhun, from whence he originally came.[/quote']

 

Mount Gundabad (whence the goblins came for the Battle of the Five Armies) is likely still active. There are presumbaly still dragons in the north. Carn Dum, though long abandoned, may still be a haven of evil. The men of Dunland may be broken, but not gone completely.

 

Am I showing my ICE Middle Earth roots to much? I still have a far greater softspot for playing in 1640TA than the Fourth Age...

 

Having said that, the idea of new strife within Gondor is appealing - and I love the name 'Sons of Denethor', Savinien. Repped.

 

However, Tolkein's point, quoted by Zane, remains: these are enemies of a far lower order than Sauron and the Nazgul.

[The Oz]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Being a person with a 4th Age campaign currently in session (not HERO, sadly) you can also borrow a bad guy from Tolkien, since he never did tell us what happened to the Mouth of Sauron (evil black Numenorean type who spoke to Gandalf and Co. at the Black Gates).

 

I can't really see a serious internal threat to Aragorn's rule; he's just too d*mn nice a guy, and an effective ruler. However, his grandsons or great-grandsons might just be a little more corruptible, especially with the huge costs of rebuilding Arnor sucking money out of the southlands to profit a few Rangers in the north.

[baronspam]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

There were quite a few groups of men who allied with the Dark Lord during the war of the ring. Umbar, the Easterling, the Men of Harad, the hill tribes of Dunland, etc. Considerng they just got a ass kicking at the hands of Gondor/Rohan, they would probably welcome those who wanted to bring about Aragorn's downfall.

 

And as someone else said, there is always the North. Much of Arnor is unsettled or llightly settled. Keep in mind Bree is a major population center for that area. There really are no true cities (maybe the dwarves based on LOTR online, but that is a debatable matter) There are Dwarves in the Blue mountains and Elves near the Coast, but much of it is wild, or very lightly populated, and many of the men of Arnor had at best a vague idea of what was happening in the south, if they had any idea at all. If a well supplied, well funded group showed up on the edges of Breeland or in the lands between the mountain and Mirkwood or somewhere similar and wanted to set up shop, there wouldn't be much to stop them.

[Old Man]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

However, Tolkein's point, quoted by Zane, remains: these are enemies of a far lower order than Sauron and the Nazgul.

 

Sauron was a Maiar, and the most powerful of them, so if you want enemies of that order you need to start looking for other Maiar. We already know one other bad Maiar escaped the destruction of Angband--the Balrog in Moria. There may be others. And we know of the existence of three other Maiar--the remaining Istari: Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. Radagast seems to have disappeared shortly before the events of FOTR. The latter two went East and we have no clue what happened to them, but it's not hard to imagine at least one of them embracing the Dark Side and then turning up after his best buddy Sauron got whacked.

 

Or if you want to get really crazy, you could have another one of the Valar break away and come to Middle-Earth, and then you have a Melkor-level epic bad guy to contend with.

[Manic Typist]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I think an outtake of the movie has Aragorn lopping off the Mouth of Sauron's head during parley. Aragorn really wanted there to be a fight, and perhaps the Mouth was damaging moral?

 

How about a more....neutral, rather than purely evil Maiar? It has its own agenda, but that agenda isn't necessarily to cover the land in shadow.

 

I'm not Tolkien-spert...but I thought Sauron was previously someone else's underling? So....he was perhaps AMONG the more powerful Maiar?

[Nolgroth]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Sauron was Melkor's underling. Melkor being one of the Valar created by Eru (basically God). The Valar were pretty massively powerful and might be equated to the archangels or perhaps the gods of Olympus/Asgard.The Maiar, of which Sauron, Gandalf and the Balrogs are part of are sort of lesser angels. Still powerful, but not as powerful as the Valar.

 

More information can be found at this link.

[Savinien]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I don't want to give up all the details of my setting, but the Sons of Denethor were the creation of a more insidious Evil. The majority of it came from various places on the net, but the SoD were from Tolkien himself. In that next novel he started children of Gondor were actually acting like orcs and popularizing the evils of the Third Age. Where JRRT left off, I took up the mantle.

 

There was also talk of Sauron's daughter.

 

In my campaign, the subjugated of Nurn were happy to be out from under the yoke of Sauron, but old hatreds die hard. I played a lot with all of that, but as the most versed in the lore, the players just took it for what it was as there wasn't a whole lot left of Tolkien's Middle Earth but the locations and the 'history'. I can see Andy's side of enjoying TA more because of that.

[Manic Typist]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I don't want to give up all the details of my setting, but the Sons of Denethor were the creation of a more insidious Evil. The majority of it came from various places on the net, but the SoD were from Tolkien himself. In that next novel he started children of Gondor were actually acting like orcs and popularizing the evils of the Third Age. Where JRRT left off, I took up the mantle.

 

 

Popularizing the evils of the Third Age?

[Badger]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I think an outtake of the movie has Aragorn lopping off the Mouth of Sauron's head during parley. Aragorn really wanted there to be a fight, and perhaps the Mouth was damaging moral?

 

How about a more....neutral, rather than purely evil Maiar? It has its own agenda, but that agenda isn't necessarily to cover the land in shadow.

 

I'm not Tolkien-spert...but I thought Sauron was previously someone else's underling? So....he was perhaps AMONG the more powerful Maiar?

 

He was Melkor (AKA Morgoth) underling till the end of the first Age.

[Badger]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

While it is in my mind. Does anyone know where I can find a map of Middle Earth (the whole thing, not just a section)

[Nolgroth]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

http://www.lords-of-blah.nl/mearth/mearthmap.html

 

http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/

[Badger]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

http://www.lords-of-blah.nl/mearth/mearthmap.html

 

http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/

 

Thanks, I tried another attempt at google late last night and found that 2nd link you mentioned. Studied it a little tonight.

 

Actually, if I went with my orignal idea, I'd say the Iron Hills area would be a perfect place to send them (mostly south and west of them, maybe a little NE, for their destination of occupation). Kind of on the edge of eastern civilization, could leave some interesting diplomacy from the Dwarves in Iron Hills and Rhun to the south. And with it being on the "edge" could leave room from something "mysterious" from the east.

 

Course, a like some of the other ideas (though it goes in directions I didnt think about) so, I'll have to study it a little more.

 

Note: One reason I wanted to look at a map of the whole thing was while I have a good idea from all the various sections of maps they have circulating. I really needed the whole thing to get everything in perspective, if you like.

[Badger]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Sauron was Melkor's underling. Melkor being one of the Valar created by Eru (basically God). The Valar were pretty massively powerful and might be equated to the archangels or perhaps the gods of Olympus/Asgard.The Maiar, of which Sauron, Gandalf and the Balrogs are part of are sort of lesser angels. Still powerful, but not as powerful as the Valar.

 

More information can be found at this link.

 

Well, if I remember right, Tolkien was Catholic, so the angel angle might be where he was going. THough, he had studied a lot on the ASgardians, so you never know. (course now I am envisioning a wierd Sauron-Loki alliance. )

 

Also, this is a good link. I've been looking at periodically (when in a LOTR-ish mood) the last few months.

[Savinien]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

Popularizing the evils of the Third Age?

 

I'll see if I can find the article. But basically the Evil was using propaganda with younger Gondorians and malcontents to 'popularize' bad folks in the Third Age. Sort of like we've done with pirates, bandits, and thieves of bygone days.

 

I don't want to spoil too much in case you were to actually play in a Fourth Age game I was running.

 

Here is a link:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_New_Shadow

[Manic Typist]

Re: LOTR thoughts

 

I'm sorry to say that I've already encountered some information regarding a Fourth Age campaign of yours on the forums. Something about Sauron's daughter manipulating things via mental influence on nobles, trying to stir up a civil war so that she can step in and be the miraculous savior?