How Fast an Horse can Go?

[Dr Divago]

Hi all

everytime my PC will need to travel (and they travel a lot... they started on Aarn and now are in Kirkovy...) i use Traveling Table from FH as a guideline, very very very rough guideline 'cause sometime i prefer using dramatic/narrative time "ok you get two week to go here"

 

btw, in FH it says horse will travel at 5.5 km/h on plain road, and gallop for 15 km/h

googlin here and there i found a really different traveling pace for _real_ horses:

about 3-4 mph (is roughly 5-7 km/h) for walk and 30-50 mph (much more ten times!!) for gallop, really dependent on horse race, fatigue, rider, etc

 

now, i don't ask for a gritty realistic way to define traveling time BUT it seems really not valid table :\

i checked on 5 edition FH (i own) and also on 6th edition FH from my mate, and it looked really similar... i mean identical (also the example are identical u.u)

 

so... did someone found a better way to calculate traveling time?

[Ternaugh]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Horses can usually walk (at the listed speeds for Hero) for extended periods, or can trot at about 8 MPH (13 KPH) for hours. Horses can canter and gallop for much shorter periods (measured in minutes, usually--it's why horse races are the way they are).The daily averages listed in Hero are about right, considering that time must be taken to allow the horse to eat and rest.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait

 

JoeG

[Dr Divago]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

yeah the "walk" rating (5,5 km/h) is good

is the "gallop" (15 km/h) that's not good, in my opinion

 

i need to know... how fast a courier can go to send a mail/package to his lord? how fast can go a fugitive? can i escape from 9 horse riding wraith while wearing a deadly wounded little halfling to an elfic safe heaven?

 

plus, in a truly fantasy world where are wizard and magic steed, griffon riding paladins and like, the table is pretty useless x_x

 

i'm building a spreadsheet where i calculate max speed (for day, hours and like) for some riding.

something like:

walk - half movement at SPD 2

fast walk - full movement at SPD 2

trot - half nocombat movement at SPD 2

run - full nocombat movement at SPD 2

gallop - full nocombat movement at full SPD

all speed in km/h

 

then modifier:

for more than 4 hour trip -> reduce by 30% ('cause stop for eating, rest, etc)

for more than 1 hour trip -> reduce by 10% (minor stop than 4 hour trip )

nightime -> reduce by 50%

 

also

good terrain: unmodified

plain terrain: reduce by 10%

rough terrain: reduce by 40%; maybe you cannot gallop or run

very rough terrain: reduce by 70%; most of time you can only walk, some veichles cannot go

 

and the also rules like:

walk - max 8 hours; 1 LTE/hour from 8-10 hours;

quick walk - max 4 hour; 1 LTE /hour until 10th hour; then 2 LTE/hour

trot - max 1 hour; then 1 LTE /hour until 8 hour; then 3 LTE/hour

run - 1 LTE for first hour; then LTE cost double every 2 hour (ie 2 LTE/hour until 3rd hour, 4 LTE/hour until 5th hour, etc)

gallop - 1 LTE for first hour; then LTE cost double every hour (ie 2 LTE for 2nd hour, 4 LTE for 3rd hour, 8 LTE for 4 hour, etc)

 

of course, LTE is for Long Term Endurance and gallop for a long means "dead horse"... u.u

(but special fantastic trained horse could really gallop for a long while)

[McCoy]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

i need to know... how fast a courier can go to send a mail/package to his lord?

Are remounts available?

 

how fast can go a fugitive?

Can he steal remounts?

 

can i escape from 9 horse riding wraith while wearing a deadly wounded little halfling to an elfic safe heaven?

YECCH! Never mind the wraiths, can you escape the Fashion Police? Not to mention the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Halflings.

[Ternaugh]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

yeah the "walk" rating (5,5 km/h) is good

is the "gallop" (15 km/h) that's not good, in my opinion

 

i need to know... how fast a courier can go to send a mail/package to his lord? how fast can go a fugitive? can i escape from 9 horse riding wraith while wearing a deadly wounded little halfling to an elfic safe heaven?

 

plus, in a truly fantasy world where are wizard and magic steed, griffon riding paladins and like, the table is pretty useless x_x

 

i'm building a spreadsheet where i calculate max speed (for day, hours and like) for some riding.

something like:

walk - half movement at SPD 2

fast walk - full movement at SPD 2

trot - half nocombat movement at SPD 2

run - full nocombat movement at SPD 2

gallop - full nocombat movement at full SPD

all speed in km/h

 

then modifier:

for more than 4 hour trip -> reduce by 30% ('cause stop for eating, rest, etc)

for more than 1 hour trip -> reduce by 10% (minor stop than 4 hour trip )

nightime -> reduce by 50%

 

also

good terrain: unmodified

plain terrain: reduce by 10%

rough terrain: reduce by 40%; maybe you cannot gallop or run

very rough terrain: reduce by 70%; most of time you can only walk, some veichles cannot go

 

and the also rules like:

walk - max 8 hours; 1 LTE/hour from 8-10 hours;

quick walk - max 4 hour; 1 LTE /hour until 10th hour; then 2 LTE/hour

trot - max 1 hour; then 1 LTE /hour until 8 hour; then 3 LTE/hour

run - 1 LTE for first hour; then LTE cost double every 2 hour (ie 2 LTE/hour until 3rd hour, 4 LTE/hour until 5th hour, etc)

gallop - 1 LTE for first hour; then LTE cost double every hour (ie 2 LTE for 2nd hour, 4 LTE for 3rd hour, 8 LTE for 4 hour, etc)

 

of course, LTE is for Long Term Endurance and gallop for a long means "dead horse"... u.u

(but special fantastic trained horse could really gallop for a long while)

 

From the Pony Express article, it's noted that stations with fresh remounts were about 10 miles (16 km) apart, roughly the distance that a horse could gallop without tiring. So your LTE for Gallop should probably be measured in LTE per x minutes, not hours. Anything above trot should rapidly tire out a horse, and really shouldn't be used to calculate a day's travel time.

 

JoeG

[Dr Divago]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

So your LTE for Gallop should probably be measured in LTE per x minutes' date=' not hours. Anything above trot should rapidly tire out a horse, and really shouldn't be used to calculate a day's travel time.[/quote']mmmhhh ok

i'ìm trying to figure out a "general rule" to be used with all (almost) mounts and veichles, not just the horse, but including grypphons, dragons, flying ship, etc

 

mmhhh ok

i'm seeing a horse could gallop for 20-30 minutes before getting _really_ tired

and run for a little more (30-45 minutes, maybe an hour if a good horse, no more or he'll die)

 

seeing horse get 40 END, seems to me the LTE rule is'nt good for it

btw, i don't like to be "all ruling" about it... so i need to check another rule about it x_x

i just whant:

- walk possible for 8 hour, you can force pace to 10 hour with little effort and more with really big effort

- fast walk (aka forced pace) and trot for half the time of walk, and going more than 8 hour will be really tiring

- run for a while, an hour and you get really tired. more and you probably will go down

- gallop for a very little while, good to escape, to run away from a bad guy or just to go in the city before evil dragons arrives bursting flame here and there. gallop is not good for travel, ofc.

 

i'd like the LTE rule so encumbered guys get fatigued more, you can force pace, and you can make some differences: vholzian horses got more END so could travel more, dragons got a lot more END so could travel very long, ships got no END so could travel all day long, etc.

btw, i don't think the game will be "the long run" so i need only a quick and dirty table to calculate how far and how long could they travel to get from city A to city B. and hopefully, back in time to stop evildoers doing nasty things to the city...

[Dr Divago]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

hello again

i was thinking about an omnicomprehensive rule with lot of exception covered, special situation, and heavy calculation for LTE, riding skill roll, animal empathy, and like...

then i thought... "why i'm doing this? i can't use a simple rule of thumb for it?"

 

and then the solution: a simple easy-peasy table to valuate how much a mount can go, and how long an army can march.

 

rule 1: every mount (or people) can go for a fixed amount of time without tiring.

rule 2: a sentient being can overcome this fixed mount and go spend LTE to go for another fixed time

rule 3: a non sentient being (mount) can be forced to overcome this, by riding roll, animal empathy, pre attacks, etc. mobs and army count as "non sentient" being

rule 4: a full trained mount can go up until 10 LTE point, then you need another riding skill roll (w -1/LTE) and another one everytime you lose another LTE again

rule 5: a non trained mount can go up until 5 LTE and then skill roll w -2/LTE

rule 6: a skill roll is needed even to made the mount (army, mob) go on the day after, if there still are LTE. a tired horse does'nt

 

walk - max 8 hours/day. up until 12 hours with -1 LTE/20 min

fast pace - max 4 hours/day. up until 8 hour with -1 LTE/20 min

trot - max 4 hours/day. up until 8 hour with -1 LTE/15 in

run - max 1 hour/day. up until 2 hour with -1 LTE/5 min

gallop - max 20 min. up until 1 hour with -1 LTE/min

 

and again, long trip are -30% traveling time, night is -60% (or -30% if you AND your mount can see in the darkness) etc

[Peregrine]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Speed of plot?

[Old Man]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Don't forget time to unsaddle/resaddle, brush down, feed, and water the thing at either end of the trip, and at each stop.

[Ice9]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

i'ìm trying to figure out a "general rule" to be used with all (almost) mounts and veichles, not just the horse, but including grypphons, dragons, flying ship, etc

There's a pretty big difference there. You've got at least three categories:

* Horses (and the like)

* Flying Stuff (generally similar to horses, but could potentially glide in good weather at a lesser endurance cost)

* Non-Living Stuff (such as flying ships, which could go all day and night)

 

The last category probably doesn't need any specific rules beyond the normal ones: km/h = SPD * NCM * 0.3

[Dr Divago]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

There's a pretty big difference there. You've got at least three categories:

* Horses (and the like)

* Flying Stuff (generally similar to horses, but could potentially glide in good weather at a lesser endurance cost)

* Non-Living Stuff (such as flying ships, which could go all day and night)

mmmhhh i had no thought about gliding flying mount

and the paladin got a hyppogrph so could really happens

(no... seriously... i don't think hyppogryph could glide...)

[Badger]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Are remounts available?

 

 

Can he steal remounts?

 

 

YECCH! Never mind the wraiths, can you escape the Fashion Police? Not to mention the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Halflings.

 

 

There's a Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Halflings......umm, oh crap!.......Ummm *points at McCoy* He did it! *flees*

[Old Man]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Yeah, I'd be more interested in joining the Society for Performance of Cruelty to Halflings...

 

...and Ewoks.

[dmjalund]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Yeah, I'd be more interested in joining the Society for Performance of Cruelty to Halflings...

 

...and Ewoks.

♬♫ Short people, got no reason.. ♬♫

[alms66]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

It depends a whole lot on what u consider a "horse"?

 

Is it shoed? Much advantaged.

Is it bred over thousands of years for strength and endurance? Much advanced.

 

Basically, if you take a stone age horse and a stone age man, the horse is worthless in long distance running, change those assumptions and you change the answer.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

It depends a whole lot on what u consider a "horse"?

 

Is it shoed? Much advantaged.

Is it bred over thousands of years for strength and endurance? Much advanced.

 

Basically, if you take a stone age horse and a stone age man, the horse is worthless in long distance running, change those assumptions and you change the answer.

 

That's it. I'm putting out a contract on David Brin. "Persistence hunting" is a myth. A very, very persistent myth. Stone Age men didn't run horses down any more than modern men can. Notice that's a link, by the way.

[baronspam]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

That's it. I'm putting out a contract on David Brin. "Persistence hunting" is a myth. A very' date=' very persistent myth. Stone Age men didn't run horses down any more than modern men can. Notice that's a link, by the way.

 

Persistance hunting is very real, and practiced today in africa by certain groups.

 

That isn't to say it isn't a very misunderstood practice. The key to peristance hunting isn't speed, or even endurance, its heat. Let me explain.

 

Humans are wonderfully adapted at thermoregulation. We have very little hair compaired to most primates, and can cope with high temperatures via sweating much better than most other large mammals. Persistance hunting isn't so much about getting animals tired, its about giving them heat exhaustion. The few groups that still practice this in africa typically do so in the hottest part of the day. They don't outrun animals, but they track an animal and don't let it rest, typcially for a period of 2 to 5 hours. No human can outrun antelope, but by keeping after it, not letting it rest or drink, over time a human can win the battle to deal with the heat The antelope can only sprint away so many times before it needs an extended break to cool down. If it doesn't get it, a hunter eventually can walk up and spear it with no more difficulty than spearing a hay bale.

 

I don't know the David Brin reference you are pointing to, the only book of his I ever read had a talking chimp and Aliens that live in the sun. So maybe he go it drastically wrong, I don't know. But persistance hunting is a real, living practice among extant ethnic groups in africa today, so it certainly is not myth.

[alms66]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Persistance hunting is very real, and practiced today in africa by certain groups.

 

That isn't to say it isn't a very misunderstood practice. The key to peristance hunting isn't speed, or even endurance, its heat. Let me explain.

 

Humans are wonderfully adapted at thermoregulation. We have very little hair compaired to most primates, and can cope with high temperatures via sweating much better than most other large mammals. Persistance hunting isn't so much about getting animals tired, its about giving them heat exhaustion. The few groups that still practice this in africa typically do so in the hottest part of the day. They don't outrun animals, but they track an animal and don't let it rest, typcially for a period of 2 to 5 hours. No human can outrun antelope, but by keeping after it, not letting it rest or drink, over time a human can win the battle to deal with the heat The antelope can only sprint away so many times before it needs an extended break to cool down. If it doesn't get it, a hunter eventually can walk up and spear it with no more difficulty than spearing a hay bale.

Yeah, he's got it right there. In addition, modern man is wearing modern shoes which change the natural running gait of a human being considerably and actually weaken a human's natural ability at running - they cause tons of injuries in runners because of this. I don't know who the hell David Brin is either, and I don't have any internet links to point to, but what I do have is a stack of scientific magazines and books on my shelves that all point to the fact that without the past 6000-8000 years of animal husbandry (breeding for the traits we wanted out of horses - better strength, size and endurance), plus without the addition of horse shoes (which allow horses to traverse terrain they normally wouldn't be able to), horses were easily hunted down using the persistence hunting methods still in use in Africa today. Humans are the most efficient natural long distance runners due to their superior ability to shed heat, as stated above - no other animal has that. NONE. Humans can and do outrun everything - eventually.

[The Overseer]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Except maybe lions and tigers and bears.. Oh my!

 

Not so much outrunning as running away from though =)

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Yeah' date=' he's got it right there. In addition, modern man is wearing modern shoes which change the natural running gait of a human being considerably and actually weaken a human's natural ability at running - they cause tons of injuries in runners because of this. I don't know who the hell David Brin is either, and I don't have any internet links to point to, but what I do have is a stack of scientific magazines and books on my shelves that all point to the fact that without the past 6000-8000 years of animal husbandry (breeding for the traits we wanted out of horses - better strength, size and endurance), plus without the addition of horse shoes (which allow horses to traverse terrain they normally wouldn't be able to), horses were easily hunted down using the persistence hunting methods still in use in Africa today. Humans are the most efficient natural long distance runners due to their superior ability to shed heat, as stated above - no other animal has that. NONE. Humans can and do outrun everything - eventually.[/quote']

 

 

This is nothing but a very persistent myth. The link already posted will take you to the Wikipedia article on the most prominent "man versus horse" race, but it is far from the only one. You can follow up by Googling "man versus horse," or just look for similar threads in this very forum, because this keeps coming up. I blame novelist David Brin for that, but this meme sure has taken on a life on its own on the interwebs.

 

Again: horses run further, faster, and longer than humans, sweat just fine and also lather, a trick that doesn't work for bipeds, and have never been taken by "persistence hunting," for the simple reason that (humans) do not do it. There are animals that do do it, and they most definitely do not look like humans. Specifically, they look like Fido, for the perfectly good reason that that is how evolution designs a persistence hunter.

 

As far as I know, the notion that human beings might have been persistence hunters was first popularised by an anthropologist working in Mexico who was characterising what he believed to have been an extinct practice. He then waved at Khoi hunters of the Kalahari and described their normal practice of following animals that they'd already shot/staking out watering holes as being like persistence hunting.

 

Of course, human beings are, above all, intelligent hunters. That's our edge, and most definitely not our running ability. (Again, ask Fido to show you how running is done some time. Once you can outrace your dog, you can move up to a horse.) Since people are intelligent, they have never hunted by chasing horses.

 

As for the "running shoes bad" thing, I'm not quite sure what to say. Other than that if you can prove your point, the check from Man United alone will ensure that you never have to work again.

[Old Man]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

This is nothing but a very persistent myth. The link already posted will take you to the Wikipedia article on the most prominent "man versus horse" race' date=' but it is far from the only one. You can follow up by Googling "man versus horse," or just look for similar threads in this very forum, because this keeps coming up. I blame novelist David Brin for that, but this meme sure has taken on a life on its own on the interwebs.

 

The meme predates the interwebz. I've been hearing it for decades. One of the sayings in my family is "How does an Apache catch a horse? He walks." (Not that that makes it true, but my point is that the idea has been around for a very long time.) My understanding is that capturing horses took days, not less than two hours as that man vs. horse "marathon" would suggest.

[Old Man]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

As far as I know, the notion that human beings might have been persistence hunters was first popularised by an anthropologist working in Mexico who was characterising what he believed to have been an extinct practice. He then waved at Khoi hunters of the Kalahari and described their normal practice of following animals that they'd already shot/staking out watering holes as being like persistence hunting.

 

There is video evidence of Kalahari persistence hunting on youtube. Perhaps it is faked, but I am not one to accuse David Attenborough of poor factchecking. I note that Kalahari hunters aren't hunting horses, though.

[Markdoc]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Persistance hunting isn't a myth - the San of the kalahari still do it.

 

What is a myth is that persistence hunting involves "running your prey down". It doesn't.

 

The San hunt their prey over extended periods, most of which is spent walking and tracking, not running. Louis Liebenberg hunted with the San and tracked their hunts with GPS tags. The speed of these hunts varied mostly between 4 and 6 km an hour. Not exactly a scorching pace. The trick is not sustained speed, nor "superior heat regulation" - those really are myths. Plenty of animals sweat and plenty of animals are better adapted to move for prolonged periods in hot climates. A camel can cover 100 km in scorching weather in two days - and then turn around and do it again, no bother. A human who tried to match that pace under those conditions would die.

 

It's not about heat, either: as far as we can tell, neolithic peoples in northern probably also practiced persistence hunting. Hint: post glacial siberia was not a warm place. Likewise, the San hunt winter and summer - and in winter, the Kalahari has a mild, gentle climate during the day and is often freezing at night.

 

Persistence hunting is all about persistence, just like the name implies. Hunts can take place over many hours. The hunters are prepared. They carry food, and water (or drink as much as they can beforehand), and can eat and drink on the move. They know the land and drive their prey away from water, eventually either wearing it down to the point they can get close enough to wound it, or simply cutting it off as it circles back towards water or the rest of the group. They work in teams, so that some can rest while the others harry the animal. They also can identify the animal by it's tracks and plan their hunt accordingly. If they don't kill on first contact, they keep tracking (that's why the San use poison arrows - even a light wound will weaken their prey). As long as they don't lose it, or they don't run out of food and water themselves, they will eventually catch it ... if they persist.

 

And ... if the animal is slow enough, and water-requiring enough for persistence hunting to work. Many animals are simply too fast and too durable for them to catch by persistence hunting so they are stalked and shot from ambush or caught with snares. The San only try this trick on certain species, and they vary their approach with the season. Steenbok, duiker, and gemsbok are chosen for persistence hunting in the rainy season because the San say wet sand forces open their hoofs and stiffens the joints (and that's not as dumb as it sounds - I've seen myself gembok and impala with split hooves from running on river-beds: they don't live long before something - usually baboons or hyenas - gets them). Kudu, eland, and red hartebeest are chosen for persistence hunting in the dry season if they can be forced into sandy areas because they tire more easily in loose sand. Kudu bulls tire faster than cows because of their heavy horns. Kudu cows are are chosen for persistence hunting only if they are pregnant or wounded (otherwise they can outlast the hunters too easily). Animals weakened by injury, illness, or hunger and thirst are pursued any time of year. The best time for the persistence hunt is at the end of the dry season (October/November), when animals are poorly nourished and water sources few.

 

Even so, they often fail. Liebenberg's observations indicated that the San caught an average of 25 kilos of meat per day hunting with dogs, vs 5 kilos per day with persistence hunting.

 

David Brin didn't originate the idea of persistence hunting - anthropologists did. Brin's sin was to promote the idea that humans could outrun any animal and that they were able to do that because of miraculous cooling powers possessed by no other animal. These days, though the primary sinners in promoting that idea seem to be sites that sell running gear. Neither idea is true, and serious study of the idea by anthropologists confirms this, as do human vs horse races. The Tevis cup for example, is a 100 mile horse race across the Sierra mountains. Horses routinely turn in 14-15 hour times and they could do it faster if they were pushed. The fastest humans manage the same course in about 23 hours and they can barely move at the end. Somewhat flatter - but even hotter - is the Sultan bin Zayed endurance race. 240 kilometres, over 3 days: an 80 kilometre race each day. The last race was won in just over 10 hours. Across sand. In temperatures reaching 30 degrees (over 100 F). The shorter Al Jaber Ladies Challenge, is only 90 kilometers - the winning horses take a touch over 3 hours. Anyone who thinks humans can touch those sort of speeds, is, quite frankly, utterly delusional. Short races or long, mountains or flat terrain, hot weather or cold, the championships for speed and endurance belong to quadrupeds, and that's all there is to it. There's no speculation involved: we have the numbers.

 

cheers, Mark

[Querysphinx]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

Back when I had a horse, I usually caught him by rattling a bucket. I have more willpower to resist the oats than he did.

 

I will point out that one does not necessarily have to put shoes on horses to improve their performance. I've had better luck, even on hard rocky ground with a good rounded trimming. No more tender feet, yay! Too much shoeing, on the other hand, can really tear up the hooves.

[Old Man]

Re: How Fast an Horse can Go?

 

I understand there have been recent developments with polymer shoes epoxied on to the hoof, that are better all around than the steel type that's been in use since metal was invented.