Enraged Pricing

[Ockham's Spoon]

I just wanted to get some feedback on how people would define this Complication and how many points it would be worth.

 

So we have a character possessed by a supernatural force that grants his powers. But it also causes him to lose control sometimes. The player wants to represent this loss of control on two levels. Most of the time the character is still in partial control, so this is just Enraged. But sometimes he totally loses it and goes Berserk. His initial build is this:

 

Enraged 8- when BODY taken, Recover 14- for 10 pts (this is likely to be a Common circumstance as the character has minimal resistant defenses in a world with a fairly high proportion of Killing Attacks)

 

Berserk 8- when Enraged, Recover 14- for 15 pts (and Uncommon circumstance)

 

Now this doesn't quite sit right with me, with the nested Berserk provided more points than the Enraged. So does this seem copacetic to you? If not, how would you structure it?

[Christopher]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Beserk is a more extreme Enraged. It's normal enraged + has to attack allies.

That's why it is more worth, so just give him the points for the difference between Enraged and Berserk (5 Points) for the Berserk on top of enraged.

 

And it could all be easier, if he just had a "enraged" alternate form.

 

Edit: Berserk is listed at +10, but since he can avoid becomming Berserk by not becomming enraged it's one of the chases where it is less likely to kick in (like with Multiform and Distinctive Features).

[Lucius]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I just wanted to get some feedback on how people would define this Complication and how many points it would be worth.

 

So we have a character possessed by a supernatural force that grants his powers. But it also causes him to lose control sometimes. The player wants to represent this loss of control on two levels. Most of the time the character is still in partial control, so this is just Enraged. But sometimes he totally loses it and goes Berserk. His initial build is this:

 

Enraged 8- when BODY taken, Recover 14- for 10 pts (this is likely to be a Common circumstance as the character has minimal resistant defenses in a world with a fairly high proportion of Killing Attacks)

 

Berserk 8- when Enraged, Recover 14- for 15 pts (and Uncommon circumstance)

 

Now this doesn't quite sit right with me, with the nested Berserk provided more points than the Enraged. So does this seem copacetic to you? If not, how would you structure it?

 

I've written it up that way, but I was uneasy about it. Maybe I should give it more thought. The thing is, however it's written, you want to make sure to preserve the concept

 

If X, then: roll for Enraged, then

 

After each phase Enraged, roll for Berserk

 

the cost should come out, if possible, somewhere between

 

If X, then: Roll for Enraged

 

and

 

If X, then: Roll for Berserk

 

I wonder what Hugh Neilson would say?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If Lucius Alexander, then: Palindromedary Tagline

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I don't personally see a problem with it. The first time he hauls off with lethal force on the teammate who happens to be standing next to him, that'll be worth 15 points.

 

Or an innocent civilian or police officer, of course ... at which point, the character will probably be in jail, and the new guy will hopefully have a trifle more self-control.

[Christopher]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I don't personally see a problem with it. The first time he hauls off with lethal force on the teammate who happens to be standing next to him' date=' that'll be worth 15 points.[/quote']

There is ideed a problem with that. As you say he has no defenses to speak of, while not enraged. I hope his demon kick in when he goes, otherwise he may not live long...

And who would actually want to be near somebody like him, when he could always kill everybody in the group?

Also a common activator may simply be too unfitting for a PC.

[Lucius]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I don't personally see a problem with it. The first time he hauls off with lethal force on the teammate who happens to be standing next to him, that'll be worth 15 points.

 

Or an innocent civilian or police officer, of course ... at which point, the character will probably be in jail, and the new guy will hopefully have a trifle more self-control.

 

Might not be Champions. For all we know, it could be Fantasy Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I, when we first saw the thread, thought it would be about having Enraged: When overcharged for a good or service

[Lucius]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Don't call my name in battle, stand away

For I will never hear you, but another creature may.

It never sees a friend, but only foes;

Just count the bodies lying where this taken body goes

 

 

Don't call my name in battle, it's not wise;

Do not distract me when you see a new soul in these eyes

For when the War God fills this flesh I wear

I am no more your friend, I am the spirit of the Bear.

 

 

Don't call my name in battle, wait the time

Until you see me fall and rise, with eyes you know are mine.

And then perhaps we'll rest and talk of home;

 

But you'll not be surprised to see how much I walk alone.

 

"Don't Call My Name in Battle" by Heather Alexander

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes even the palindromedary is impressed by how much stuff I have by heart

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Might not be Champions. For all we know, it could be Fantasy Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I, when we first saw the thread, thought it would be about having Enraged: When overcharged for a good or service

 

I'd still suspect the results would be the same.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I'm with Crosshair Collie; I think it's priced about right. Berserk is worth more for a reason, just because you've defined the 'Berserk' Condition as "Already Enraged" does not make it worth less than the Enraged itself.

 

It may look odd that the secondary condition is worth more than the primary condition; but, the secondary condition denotes an almost total loss of control of the Character.

 

You probably wouldn't find it a problem if you redefined the conditions to something like; Enraged "When half their STUN is gone" and Berserk "When Half their STUN and Half their END is gone" ... also nested conditions. Hugh will probably come along and have the patience to work out all the probability math behind it; Me, I eyeball that and believe it will play out as it looks like it will, Enraged will cause issues - Berserk will cause real problems.

 

Overall, it's 25 Points in Complications that will most likely be worth that amount.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I just wanted to get some feedback on how people would define this Complication and how many points it would be worth.

 

So we have a character possessed by a supernatural force that grants his powers. But it also causes him to lose control sometimes. The player wants to represent this loss of control on two levels. Most of the time the character is still in partial control, so this is just Enraged. But sometimes he totally loses it and goes Berserk. His initial build is this:

 

Enraged 8- when BODY taken, Recover 14- for 10 pts (this is likely to be a Common circumstance as the character has minimal resistant defenses in a world with a fairly high proportion of Killing Attacks)

 

Berserk 8- when Enraged, Recover 14- for 15 pts (and Uncommon circumstance)

 

Now this doesn't quite sit right with me, with the nested Berserk provided more points than the Enraged. So does this seem copacetic to you? If not, how would you structure it?

 

My ears are burning...thanks for the kind words!

 

Without mathing out the probabilities, Berserk 8- when BOD taken, recover 14- would be 25 points, right? [10 points more than the first Enraged]. It seems like that second chance to avoid going Berserk should reduce the value of the complication below a straight Berserk if takes BOD. Clearly, the possibility he might go Berserk while Enraged indicates it should be worth more than Enraged alone. The only middle spot is 20 points, so I'd be inclined to fold the two into one and make it a 20 point complication.

 

I guess we could go APG and make the Berserk "When down BOD" 25 points, "Only when Enraged" as a limitation. The Enraged condition could end, he could roll 14- to not be enraged, and he would still be Berserk, unlike the APG limited version above.

 

How often will he be enraged? He gets enraged 25% of the time if he takes BOD, but when does he start getting those 14- breakout rolls? Normally, it's "when the condition ends", isn't it? Is that going to be "the next phase he doesn't take BOD", "when the attacker who did BOD is down", "when that combat is over" or "when all his BOD is healed"? The duration of the Enraged has a pretty significant impact on the frequency of the Berserk.

[Christopher]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Afaik you get the Breakout Rolls whenever you dispatch an enemy, run out of END, someone tries to snap you out of it...

At least that's what 6E1 says about Enraged.

 

Overall we need to know more about how exactly the going form "Normal to berserk" and form "Berserk to Normal" should work for this character.

[casualplayer]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I just wanted to get some feedback on how people would define this Complication and how many points it would be worth.

 

So we have a character possessed by a supernatural force that grants his powers. But it also causes him to lose control sometimes. The player wants to represent this loss of control on two levels. Most of the time the character is still in partial control, so this is just Enraged. But sometimes he totally loses it and goes Berserk. His initial build is this:

 

Enraged 8- when BODY taken, Recover 14- for 10 pts (this is likely to be a Common circumstance as the character has minimal resistant defenses in a world with a fairly high proportion of Killing Attacks)

 

Berserk 8- when Enraged, Recover 14- for 15 pts (and Uncommon circumstance)

 

Now this doesn't quite sit right with me, with the nested Berserk provided more points than the Enraged. So does this seem copacetic to you? If not, how would you structure it?

 

First I would look at the player and say "Do you really want to play a mad dog that will have to be put down?" This character is going to throw super temper tantrums every game, in the enviroment you describe, until someone takes him over their knee and paddles his backside.

 

But as it sits the character design is suspicious. He's trying to get points for a circumstance that will happen virtually never (rolling 8- after rolling 8- after taking BODY but before Recovering on 14-) and also redundant ways to Recover (14- to no longer be Berserk and 14- to no longer be Enraged, no longer qualifying to be Berserk.) I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there is a whole suite of abilities for this character bought Only when Enraged.

 

Enraged is redundant unless your players have tendencies towards restraint, and this character concept doesn't scream restraint. If it's Phasers On Full every shot against every adversary then they already have every day Everyman Enraged. No points for you.

 

I would probably ditch the Enraged in favor of a Psych Comp Hostile or Cranky or Aggressive, set to no more than Common and Strong. Any higher and every game is going to be dealing with this guy's issues. Maybe let the character top it off with an extremely rarely occuring Berserk that can be foreseen and prevented.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Thanks everyone for the input. Just to clarify, this is for a 6e Champions campaign, 375pt starting characters. Think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is introduced to the X-men by Cthulhu. The PCs are all "reformed" monsters of one sort or another. The particular character in question is a late-comer and has not been introduced yet, but I wanted to get some feedback before that happened. I am not a fan of Berserk for PCs generally, but I admit it fits the tone of this campaign so as long as the player understands the potential consequences I am willing to let him have it.

 

I think casualplayer nailed my misgivings about this build. By the rules, since his Berserk is "Uncommon" while the Enraged is "Common", having them separate seems book legal, but it doesn't quite gel because the Berserk trumps the Enraged when it activates so it doesn't quite behave like two separate Complications.

 

Hugh's suggestion of putting the limitation on the Berserk is good. Perhaps the +10 points for Berserk should be limited by its own activation roll, or perhaps it would only kick in when a sufficient amount of BODY is taken.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

As built, I don't think snapping out of Enraged snaps him out of Berserk. IIRC, you don't get a roll to snap out of Berserk until the triggering condition is eliminated. So, as long as he stays Enrgaed, he can't cease being Berserk. Once he breaks out of Enraged, he would still need to roll to break out of Berserk.

[Christopher]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

As built' date=' I don't think snapping out of Enraged snaps him out of Berserk. IIRC, you don't get a roll to snap out of Berserk until the triggering condition is eliminated. So, as long as he stays Enrgaed, he can't cease being Berserk. Once he breaks out of Enraged, he would still need to roll to break out of Berserk.[/quote']

I thought it works this way:

When condition X happens and he is normal, he has to roll for Enraged (and becomes enraged if he makes it).

When condition X happens and he is enraged, he has to roll for Berserk (and bescomes Enraged+Berserk or just Berserk when he makes it).

 

When he's berserk+enraged and get's an breakout roll, he makes the roll to "cool down" to enraged (he's still mad, but can at least chop some items instead of his allies)

When he's only enraged and get's an breakout roll, he makes it to become normal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I wouldn't even let him get a breakout roll for Enraged until he stopped being Berserk; come out in the reverse order he went in.

 

When combat is over/lack of visuble threats the he can unBerserk; then he can unEnrage and go back to Normal. That's hiw I'd play this set up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

To me, how it will play must factor in to the pricing. From one extreme that he snaps out of Berserk if he snaps out of enraged, to the other where he can't roll to end the Enraged until he successfully ends the Berserk lies considerable middle ground.

[Greywind]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Usually middle ground that was destroyed during the berserk...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Usually middle ground that was destroyed during the berserk...

Ha!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

What are the player's ideas for what the Breakout conditions are? aside from "combat ends" that is.

 

Can his little sister cause his mind to come back, allowing him to break out of the rage? There a drug that counteracts the adrenaline overload? A rainbow in the sky suddenly make the character stare in wonder and calm him down? What's the Enraged (and subsequent Berserk) actually represent? Is this a Hulk Out situation, or a Foaming-At-The-Mouth mad warrior?

 

Knowing more about the players expectations, and descriptions of the Special Effects of both conditions will help decide exactly how the character will go into and out of these conditions.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

The player's concept for this Complication is just that he is possessed by an evil spirit bent on destruction. Mostly he controls the spirit and uses its power to be heroic, but sometimes he slips a bit (Enraged), sometimes the spirit takes full control (Berserk). A mentalist might help him reestablish control, but there don't happen to be any PC mentalists. I would give an extra recovery roll if he did something contrary to a Psych Complication, but by then the damage is done.

 

On the surface the idea that he can't recover from Enraged until he has already recovered from Berserk works from a balance standpoint. There are two reasons I don't like the build like this.

 

First, the Berserk is just a more extreme reaction to the Enraging event. So it makes sense that if he takes some BODY to go Enraged, that taking more BODY would trigger the Berserk. The build I noted in the initial post doesn't do that, but the Berserk with limitations that Hugh suggested could, which makes the build conform better to the concept. Also one could even envision him calming down from Berserk, remaining Enraged, and then going Berserk again before recovering from Enraged. That kind of yo-yo behavior makes more sense if character takes additional damage rather than a random dice event, which again is better represented by a Berserk with limitations.

 

Second, one of the recovery triggers for both Berserk and Enraged is running out of END, which makes sense, but at that point the character isn't doing much anyway, which limits the danger from either Complication at the same time so having to recover from the Berserk first becomes less of an issue. If I let him burn STUN to keep going and he knocks himself out, then he is really out of the fight.

 

The nested Berserk/Enraged build isn't terrible I don't think, but the Enraged + Berserk with limitations gives much better flavor and is perhaps a bit more balanced.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I think, perhaps it just needs some adjustment.

 

If he's wrestling with the evil spirit - then taking Body allows the spirit to slip in some control with onrush of pain. After that - I would change the Berserk Condition to "loses an EGO Fight With the spirit" - every phase the character is Enraged both the Spirit and the Character make EGO rolls (or, if you don't want to have stats for the spirit, just an EGO Roll from the Character with a negative modifier based on exactly how much Body was lost). Once the character loses that then the Spirit can try and fully take over: the Berserk Roll comes into play.

 

Once Berserk the Character will want to take control back of his body, another EGO Roll/Battle takes place, once the Character wins then they can try and remove the Berserk State (regain control); if that succeeds they can continue to push the evil spirit back down (more EGO Rolls) until they win and the Roll to end the Enraged State takes place.

 

I like the concept overall, and think it can work.

[casualplayer]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

Second' date=' one of the recovery triggers for both Berserk and Enraged is running out of END, which makes sense, but at that point the character isn't doing much anyway, which limits the danger from either Complication [i']at the same time[/i] so having to recover from the Berserk first becomes less of an issue. If I let him burn STUN to keep going and he knocks himself out, then he is really out of the fight.

 

If the player is crafty he has an offensive power with some crazy xEND multiple that empties his tank within a phase or two so that he doesn't get too out of control. Otherwise once word gets out about this guy's hair trigger every henchmans' instructions are going to be "Shoot Mad Dog first and escape during the chaos."

 

I had a player character, appropriately named Rage, in my first long-lasting group of players. He was an exceptionally gifted martial artist, except for when he lost his temper, dumped all his levels into OCV and got his clock cleaned by the level-headed. He spent XP to buy down his Enraged/Berserk to a much more manageable Psych Comp Tempermental and now goes by the name of Ronin.

 

Enraged/Berserk is supposed to be a Complication and if it doesn't complicate the player character's life then it's a gift. If this PC has lethal attacks then he's going to be on the wrong side of Justifiable Homicide in short order.

[Christopher]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

If the player is crafty he has an offensive power with some crazy xEND multiple that empties his tank within a phase or two so that he doesn't get too out of control. Otherwise once word gets out about this guy's hair trigger every henchmans' instructions are going to be "Shoot Mad Dog first and escape during the chaos."

[...]

Enraged/Berserk is supposed to be a Complication and if it doesn't complicate the player character's life then it's a gift. If this PC has lethal attacks then he's going to be on the wrong side of Justifiable Homicide in short order.

"An Enraged character typically uses his most familiar or often-used offensive Power at full strength while Enraged[...]" 6E1 422

So unless he uses that X times END attack as this, he can't use it while enraged. And the GM can rule that he doesn't want (or have the decision space) to choose that attack over antoher one (that allows him to do more damage in the long run).

I think the closest thing to compare Enraged with, is a Mind Control at EGO+20.

While berserk is more an EGO+30.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Enraged Pricing

 

I think, perhaps it just needs some adjustment.

 

If he's wrestling with the evil spirit - then taking Body allows the spirit to slip in some control with onrush of pain. After that - I would change the Berserk Condition to "loses an EGO Fight With the spirit" - every phase the character is Enraged both the Spirit and the Character make EGO rolls (or, if you don't want to have stats for the spirit, just an EGO Roll from the Character with a negative modifier based on exactly how much Body was lost). Once the character loses that then the Spirit can try and fully take over: the Berserk Roll comes into play.

 

Once Berserk the Character will want to take control back of his body, another EGO Roll/Battle takes place, once the Character wins then they can try and remove the Berserk State (regain control); if that succeeds they can continue to push the evil spirit back down (more EGO Rolls) until they win and the Roll to end the Enraged State takes place.

 

I like the concept overall, and think it can work.

 

Now that's a nice way to work it, tying it to EGO rolls, which matches the flavor of the character's concept that much more.