Archery question

[Ockham's Spoon]

I have a practical question about archery for anyone with experience with it.

 

My players often want to collect arrows after a battle, either because they are running low or because the arrows are special in some way and they don't want to lose them. I assume some break or are damaged with use, so they are unlikely to get them all back.

 

So on average, what percentage of arrows can be recovered?

 

Should recovered arrows have OCV penalties because they are slightly warped or have lost a bit of feather?

 

If a character has PS: Fletcher, how many of the damaged arrows is he likely to be able to repair by cobbling together the unbroken bits of otherwise ruined arrows?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Archery question

 

Here's the thing...

 

I have experience with target archery, using a mix of modern and not so modern equipment. This could give you a rough idea of what PC's might deal with in fairly ideal circumstances, such as competitions or maybe some trick shooting scenarios.

 

I can ask the guys I know that hunt how often they break or lose their arrows. Moving targets change the equations. But none of them are using traditional equipment.

 

However, I know exactly zero people that have actually used archery in a combat situation, where shafts could be trampled underfoot or deliberately broken by opponents that have been hit by them...

 

If a character has PS: Fletcher' date=' how many of the damaged arrows is he likely to be able to repair by cobbling together the unbroken bits of otherwise ruined arrows?[/quote']

 

Depends on what's damaged. Swapping out tips/pile is pretty easy, repairing fletching is something every fantasy archer should be able to do. In relative terms, it's about on par with sharpening a sword in the "need to know" category, but harder to actually do. But fletching gets damaged all the time (be it the glue of the feathers)

 

Broken shafts can sometimes be cut down slightly and still be functional, depending on where the break occurs. Making a new nock, when one arm is breaks, shouldn't be too big of a deal.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Archery question

 

Thanks for the input. I kind of figured actual combat would have a higher loss than just, say, deer hunting, although I hadn't thought about the enemy trampling or intentionally breaking arrows.

 

PS: Fletcher sounds like it could go a long way in the recovery of arrows, which would encourage archer characters to buy it, and I am all for rounding out a character with more skills.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Archery question

 

To my mind, a loss of 50% of arrows loosed sounds good -- half of the shot arrows I'd consider usable as-is when recovered. The rest are not usable, but can be used after a bit of work. If the arrowheads are of a hard, non-brittle material, they should be able to be re-cycled most of the time.

 

I could maybe go for rolling a D6: 4-6 means re-usable immediately; 2-3 means recyclable; 1 means a total loss. Something like that.

[Midhir]

Re: Archery question

 

Also unless they are in an area completely bare of ground cover, finding arrows isn't exactly the easy task. Volleys fired into the air to arc down on a group and land sticking pretty much perpendicular to the ground are one thing, but firing straight at a target and missing means the arrow is mostly likely going to be lost in any kind of grass or forested location, with the exception of the odd arrow stuck in a tree here and there.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Archery question

 

Oh, and in an environment with a lot of stone or brick walls, I'd expect fewer arrows to remain whole.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Archery question

 

I'd say that generally, they should be allowed to recover most of their arrows, or else you'll just have characters trying to carry ridiculous amounts of ammunition so they don't run out at a critical moment.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Archery question

 

I'd say that generally' date=' they should be allowed to recover most of their arrows, or else you'll just have characters trying to carry ridiculous amounts of ammunition so they don't run out at a critical moment.[/quote']

 

Define "rediculous"

 

Striking the balance between realism and practicality can be tough at times. All arrows instantly break (ala D&D) prevents players from looking around for lost arrows in the woods for hours, but encourages you to carry a lot more arrows. But most PC's carry a fairly unrealistic number of arrows to begin with. Heck, one of my super archer builds uses multiple quivers and one of my fantasy swordsmen carries a quiver of arrows, despite not owning or using a bow...

 

On that note, one thing that should probably also be considered: this is Fantasy Hero. There are ample opportunities for minor magic and exotic materials to solve most of these problems: making arrows difficult to break (just the SFX of a Recoverable charge or a bow that doesn't use Charges at all), quick to mend (Bonuses to PS: Fletcher or Transform) or easy to find (Detect: Arrows).

 

Obviously, I have no idea what magic level (if any) is present in the Ockham's campaign...

[Christopher]

Re: Archery question

 

Define "rediculous"

D&D 3.0

Bag of holding.

 

There is a special quiver that can hold large amounts of bows, arrows, throwing spears, magic wands and orhter stuff. We even had a player once that had a backfull full with somwhere between 350 to 700 Arrows (one of the Archer Prestige Classes).

 

Don't know what edition you talked about, but 3.0 and 3.5 both have a 50% recovery of normal arrows, no recovery of magic arrows.

But as a Player/GM I once made something: A quiver that enchants normal Arrows with the apropirate Magic Weapon Spell (normal for +1; Higher for long lasting +1 and +2 to +5). It was more expensive than just buying 50 Arrows straight and only 20 were afected per use, but once you fire enough normal Arrows echanted by them...

 

Other ideas is to give them the above recoverarble charges. Or Magic bows that summon their arrows from thin air (just take of the charges limitation). Bag of holding equivalents quivers.

In Elders Scrolls 3: Morrowind you could summon magic weapons, I think a bow with unlimited ammunition was among them.

 

Edit: Just noticed that the Bows in 6E2 are build with recoverable charges already. You chould still let them search and maybe they have to remake the ones that are broken, so only the tip remains (while hunting/gathering in wilderness you can get the materials, while camping you can do the work). But as long as they have the skills and don't needed to flee without chance to return, don't bother to much about the details of such work.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Archery question

 

There is a special quiver that can hold large amounts of bows' date=' arrows, throwing spears, magic wands and orhter stuff.[/quote']

 

Yep, the good ol' Quiver of Ehlonna

 

Don't know what edition you talked about, but 3.0 and 3.5 both have a 50% recovery of normal arrows, no recovery of magic arrows.

 

Actually, Im, probably just misremembering from 3E and beyond. It's been a while

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Archery question

 

Actually' date=' Im, probably just misremembering from 3E and beyond. It's been a while [/quote']

 

3e is 50% recovery, 4e is automatic loss of ammunition. On the other hand, I just houserule that magical bows, crossbows, and slings create their own ammo. I don't feel it's worth the bookkeeping.

 

Oh, as far as 'define ridiculous': "Okay, I've got three quivers on me ... can everybody else carry two spares for me?"

[Old Man]

Re: Archery question

 

Only three quivers? In the days of free encumbrance in AD&D, I saw characters carry five. Plus a shield, and a half dozen backup weapons including a spear, and the obligatory 10' pole.

 

It can be a problem, though, if a character's schtick is archery, to have that be limited by charges. A SPD 4 archer with double fire is burning eight arrows per turn and is all done three encounters in, and now he's useless for the boss fight.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Archery question

 

Only three quivers? In the days of free encumbrance in AD&D, I saw characters carry five. Plus a shield, and a half dozen backup weapons including a spear, and the obligatory 10' pole.

 

It can be a problem, though, if a character's schtick is archery, to have that be limited by charges. A SPD 4 archer with double fire is burning eight arrows per turn and is all done three encounters in, and now he's useless for the boss fight.

 

If you aren't paying points for equipment, then it becomes easy to just not track the arrows; it becomes the equivalent of a Spaghetti Western six-shooter that never runs out of ammo and you never see the guy reload. If you are paying points, it might be better to buy it as Zero END rather than Charges, to just represent "I always have enough arrows; I either recover them, make them, or bought a ****load of them'.

[marc]

Re: Archery question

 

we used to roll

 

x rolled = recovered arrow

y rolled = recovered shaft or arrow tip but counter part is destroyed / lost

z rolled = destroyed or lost arrow

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Archery question

 

To date I have been using the 50% loss rule, although I like the idea of a third are lost, a third are fine, and a third are fixable with a skill or magic; that seems pretty simple and fair. I might take terrain into account to some extent too, but probably only if it suits the situation.

 

This campaign does have magic, but it is not common. Characters do have to keep track of encumbrance, so carrying huge amounts of arrows isn't practical, and although magical toting containers might crop up at some point the group doesn't have anything like that at the moment.

 

My reason for looking at an arrow recovery rate is two-fold. First, since encumbrance is being enforced, the players need to consider how much they are willing to carry, and knowing how many arrows they will likely be able to recover comes into play there. Second, when they get nice arrows (magic or otherwise) they will want to retrieve them if possible, so I needed a rule of thumb for doing so (the event that brought up this question was the heroes getting a quiver of finely crafted arrows with serrated arrowheads that provide 2 Piercing Points per the APG).

 

Thanks all for the input.

[Tasha]

Re: Archery question

 

From a Target Archery Perspective, straight on shooting we lost very few arrows. Though we were in an open field. I did see some arrows do things like burrow just under the grass (and above the soil) to be hidden. Also, the more powerful the bow the further the arrow can/will go. I would rule something like 80% recovery in a relatively open battlefield. Reducing that to as little as 25% recovery in areas with lots of scrubby bushes and other groundcover that is over 12"(.33m) in height due to all of the places that the arrows can hide. You might also want to have the archer make an overall Per Roll with minuses due to cover (ie -0 in an open field up to -6 in a scrubby forest). Most misses that are found will probably be in good or have minor damage (ie fletchings need work, either replacement or straightening). I don't think I would worry about most arrows being damaged unless they hit something. Arrows have hardwood shafts (at least the good ones do), so tend to not break as much.

 

I would assume that 90% of arrows that hit their target will be damaged (Usually shafts broken off) I believe that should also include those shots that hit shields (ie you missed your target by the amount of shield bonus). You should be able to recover the heads as long as they are made of metal and are willing to dig them out of dead bodies.

 

I saw a show that talked about Robin Hood and historical English Yeoman archers. The historian pointed out that the Arrows were very expensive, and that the archer would be very careful about expending them. English arrows had Ash shafts (they found a sunken ship with a hold full of bows and ash shafted arrows).

[The Weapon]

Re: Archery question

 

The arrows that hit would sink in without much damage, except the tip might be blunted/chipped off. Getting them out without breaking the shaft is another matter, it's probably a skill archers would pick up pretty soon. The problem is directly after the hit, when the person usually either falls over or tries to break the shaft. I'd guess breaking the shaft without inflicting a lot of pain would be pretty hard, so most people will just leave it in until they get competent medical help, unless they're really hardcore.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Archery question

 

The setting would play a large role to be sure. Making a PER roll to find lost arrows is a good idea too, although I might want to do it on a bell curve with a single PER roll so they don't have to roll for each individual arrow.

 

I think the likelihood of someone breaking an arrow shaft sticking out of their body depends on the situation. If one were to take a full PHA and use both hands I could see doing so with minimal extra injury, but I don't think most would try it unless the arrow were in the way so they couldn't fight or run without banging it. That is perhaps more complex than I want to go in general, though I might toss it in for color (especially for a case where a troll or something equally big and tough casually snaps the shafts off in irritation).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Archery question

 

The setting would play a large role to be sure.

 

That's very true. How easy it is to re-equip depends on the style of game. A gritty low-fantasy game like, I dunno, Warhammer (never actually played) would likely make recovering arrows harder than a high-fantasy swashbuckling sort of game.