Cooperative Timeline

[Clonus]

The idea is to create an alternate history, one in which heroes and villains age, unless gifted with attributes that prevent that, and their actions have believable consequences for world history. Let's start it off with a bang.

 

August 31st: During the Gliewitz incident,, Sentinel (a flying brick), swoops in, captures the SS troops carrying out the operation and rescues the concentration camp inmates who were going to be killed and left at the scene. After questioning the troops and concentration camp inmates, he restrains the troops, puts both troops and inmates in a truck, and flies the lot to the Netherlands where he turns them over to the Permanent Court of International Justice. Then he flies back, abducts Adolph Hitler, and flies him to the Netherlands as well.

 

What happens next?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Court_of_International_Justice

[novi]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

I object to the concept that it would be that easy to abduct Hitler. Unless you forgot to mention that only the allies have supers, I'm pretty sure that the Nazi supers would object to such an action.

[clsage]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

I object to the concept that it would be that easy to abduct Hitler. Unless you forgot to mention that only the allies have supers' date=' I'm pretty sure that the Nazi supers would object to such an action.[/quote']

 

You make a valid point...However, at one point in the Superman mythos, he (Supes) did just that: grabbed Hitler and Stalin and dropped them before the World Court at the League Of Nations.

 

That story is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/47477023/Superman-captures-Hitler-Stalin-Look-magazine

 

-Carl-

[Gary Ciaramella]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

That is not the best starting point (in addition to being a bad idea anyhow, killing WWII would remove a really good setting for heroes). You need to start with the first hero... It would seem to me that Sentinel is not the first. I say that because... well in a world without the precedent of Superhero comics, would someone who suddenly have powers, get out of bed one day, give himself a goofy name, and fly off to dismantel the 3rd Reich? There are so many complications to that, I don't even know where to begin.

[clsage]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

That is not the best starting point (in addition to being a bad idea anyhow' date=' killing WWII would remove a really good setting for heroes). You need to start with the first hero... It would seem to me that Sentinel is not the first. I say that because... well in a world without the precedent of Superhero comics, would someone who suddenly have powers, get out of bed one day, give himself a goofy name, and fly off to dismantel the 3rd Reich? There are so many complications to that, I don't even know where to begin.[/quote']

 

While I agree conceptually, historically that is sort of what Clark Kent/Kal El did. Granted, he didn't just wake up with the powers one day but otherwise.......

 

So, if we do choose to go further back with heroes, how far should we go? As far back as the Scarlet Pimpernel? Sir Percy Blakeney, circa 1792? He's one of the archetypical "masked men" IMNSHO. No powers but well within the realm of a Pulp Hero campaigns standards for characters......

 

-Carl-

[Clonus]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

I object to the concept that it would be that easy to abduct Hitler. Unless you forgot to mention that only the allies have supers' date=' I'm pretty sure that the Nazi supers would object to such an action.[/quote']

 

Well Sentinel is a Superman knock-off of course so he'd be pretty hard to stop unless the other guys anticipated what he was going and had made preparations with him specifically in mind, and he hasn't been around for long.

 

 

 

That is not the best starting point (in addition to being a bad idea anyhow' date=' killing WWII would remove a really good setting for heroes). [/quote']

 

I didn't say anything about killing World War II. Something to bear in mind is that the Permanent International Court didn't have any authority to punish criminals. It was an arbitration court for international disputes. Sentinel has the power of a typical Superman knock-off and good intentions, but that doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. (Even if it is basically what Superman did.) The International Court can scold Hitler for his naughtiness and threaten to rain the alleged wrath of the League of Nations down on him but they can't jail him or execute him. Humiliating Adolph Hitler...somehow I don't think that's the basis for a lasting peace.

 

You need to start with the first hero... It would seem to me that Sentinel is not the first. I say that because... well in a world without the precedent of Superhero comics, would someone who suddenly have powers, get out of bed one day, give himself a goofy name, and fly off to dismantel the 3rd Reich? There are so many complications to that, I don't even know where to begin.

 

Well in the real world the Phantom and a boatload of pulp and radio heros like The Spider, The Shadow, The Lone Ranger, Zorro, The Green Hornet et cetera had already been placed in in the public imagination. But hey if you want to propose someone else to be the first high-profile costumed hero, I'm open.

[Christopher]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

Okay, I try it. When you say Superman Clone I asume that includes some superman style vulnerability to a Common SFX (Superman is vulnerable to magic).

 

So it continues:

Hitler was taken before the court, but in the end this changed nothing. The german generals needed to make sure that no neutral investigation could be made, so they launched the invasion anyway. Russia attacked to, as was planned.

Meanwhile politcal actions were made to get Hitler back and Sentinel was needed to guard him. But for one german Soldier, political power play wasn't enough. Frank Müller was fanatically devoted to hitlers cause. Not uncommom amongs the "Wehrmacht" Soldier, but he was also an undetected superhuman with the ability to channel great amounts of electricity. So he flew over to the Court, knocked Sentinel out - suprisingly easy considering the much greater experience of his adversary - and freed Hitler.

The Führer was furios about his abduction and ordered Frank to excute the unconcious Sentinal - who happly obliged. After all Germany was only defending itself against the poland agression, Sentinels unprovoked attack and this "Jew Conspiracy" of a attack that was faked by germany.

 

In the aftermath Frank Frank Müller became the "Leibwächter", hitlers personal Bodyguard.

 

 

Note: if you need Sentinel for a further story, he was just persumed dead but barely survived. the reason he was knocked out is a Vulnerability to electricity.

[Jagged]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

Hitler was taken before the court, but in the end this changed nothing. The german generals needed to make sure that no neutral investigation could be made, so they launched the invasion anyway. Russia attacked to, as was planned.

 

I was thinking something slightly different, what if getting rid of Hitler made things worse?

 

It has been suggested in some serious treatments of the war that we (the Allies) were "lucky" Hitler was incharge, because he overruled his Generals on a number of crucial occasions, that lead to better outcomes for us. For example, during the early stages of the war, the Luftwaffe concentrated all their bombing raids on taking out the RAF. As things got bad for the RAF the Allies started bombing German cities and this, it is believed, lead Hitler to overrule Goring and to direct the Luftwaffe to attack British cities instead. It is also said that during this period the RAF was reduced to one days worth of supplies and had the bombings continued as Goring directed, the RAF would have been effectively destroyed.

 

Apologies if any of this is historically inaccurate, but it makes an interesting hypothesis

[megaplayboy]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

In my alt timeline for my last(and currently slumbering in Ry'leh next to Great Cthuhlu) campaign setting, Hitler and Goring died in WW1, the Mensheviks successfully held off the Bolsheviks(until they themselves were overthrown a few years later by the Rasputin-backed Tsarina Anastassia Romanov), the militarists were thwarted in Japan...and WW2 happened anyway, with Germany becoming fascist under the highly competent leadership of Chancellor Manfred von Richtofen, teaming up with fellow fascist states Russia(led by the Terrible Troika of Romanov, Rasputin and Zhukov), Italy, the New Ottoman Dominion, Nationalist China(no Bolsheviks=no USSR=bad news for Mao and friends), Spain and (ultimately) France(commencing with the Great Betrayal, the ambush and forced surrender of the BEF). They were opposed by the UK, the United States and its American allies, Japan, India, Africa, and the Judeo-Palestinian enclave. The island nation of Atlantis, initially neutral, had conflicts with both sides before ultimately joining the Allies. The war lasted 10 years and included deployments of super-soldiers, intercontinental jet bombers, various superweapons including enormous battleships and airborne aircraft carriers, before culminating in two nuclear exchanges which destroyed several major cities on both sides. An armistice was signed in 1950.

The first proper superhero was a former pulp adventurer, William "Doc" Victor, who developed a secret formula to enhance the human physique. Subjecting himself to this process, he became Major Victory, and later administered a similar formula to thousands of wartime volunteers, giving them the strength of ten men as well as enhanced agility and durability. The Fascists, or "Fashees", developed their own super-soldier program to counter the American Victory Brigades. Major Victory joined up with the demigoddess Princess Victory, Triumph the Victory Hound, American Dream, Blue Bullet, Barnstormer and (infrequently) the Skull to form Team Victory, one of the first real superhero teams. A longer-running association of heroes, the League of World Adventurers, had a schism over the national loyalties of their membership, and split up into the League of World Allies and the European League of Adventure.

On the down side, the war lasted longer, and still had a staggering body count. On the up side, there was no Holocaust(per se, although a couple million political prisoners of varying ethnicities and persuasions died in fascist work camps). Also, the Fascists successfully invaded the British Isles, and the equivalent of D-Day resulted in the liberation of Ireland, Scotland and Wales by the Allies. They were unable, however, to liberate England from Fascist occupation. Eventually Ireland, Scotland and Wales became part of the United States. The Beatles were a group of defectors from Liverpool who became highly successful recording artists, until their death in a suspicious plane crash in 1970.

[Christopher]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

I was thinking something slightly different' date=' what if getting rid of Hitler made things worse? [/quote']

This is absolutely possible. Hitler is often cited for "Stupid Ideas".

Like starting a two front war. Or not properly securing Oil resuorces in Africa. Or using the Me 262 as Bomber instead of Interceptor. Or... (I could really go on. Every single documentary about WW2 contains at least one bad decission by Adolf.)

[BarretWallace]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

This is absolutely possible. Hitler is often cited for "Stupid Ideas".

Like starting a two front war. Or not properly securing Oil resuorces in Africa. Or using the Me 262 as Bomber instead of Interceptor. Or... (I could really go on. Every single documentary about WW2 contains at least one bad decission by Adolf.)

 

I read Ike Eisenhower's WW2 memoir (although I forget its exact title since it's been a while), and it contains one Ike-ism that I'll never forget: "We owe a lot of our success to Adolf Hitler."

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

Okay, what do we need to save here?

 

i) Sentinel's heroism;

ii) World War II.

 

What can we get dispense with?

 

The Holocaust! We need Nazis committing anti-Jewish atrocities and slave labour and such, and a "perverted science" concentration/death camp for super origins. But we can get rid of the industrial scale death camps of the Auschwitz variety. The people who went to Dachau were high profile enemies of the state, not everyday Jews.

 

How do we accomplish this? We have Hitler fall from power and be replaced by a less crazy Nazi leader --Goering. Will WWII develop exactly as it did historically? That's for us to determine. Ditto the fate of the "normal" Jews, Sinta, and Romi that he has saved. Leibwaechter, for his part, will soon be scouring the nether side of Berlin for the anarchist super-terrorists of the Black Brigade, which first strikes on 11 September. On 12 September, the extra-normal champions and heroes of London's Adventurer's Club depart to fight high science other-dimensional air raiders in their distant home across the angles of spacetime. And in Manchuria, the reverberations of the recent defeat at Nomonhan secure final approval for the secret project-within-a-project, Unit 7731. Its fiendish experiments, intended to inculcate wuxia talents in ordinary Japanese soldiers through partial brain transplants and worse, begin 21st September.

 

As for a recovered Sentinel, failure is in his mouth as he laboriously flies back to America in the last week of the month, but he cannot tarry in Europe any longer. Supposed Martian invaders have occupied Lancaster County and are marching on Philadelphia this 15th September, 1939, in their great war machines. The President, aware that the Martians are too much for even the Sentinel to defeat, has asked him to assemble a "Liberty Legion" to oppose them. The first recruit, Philadelphia's pulp era hero, the Hobgoblin, a masked vigilante with a mysterious connection to the President, is already vetting potential members.

 

The Sentinel will never know that his first major superheroic act was actually the greatest victory for justice and humanity in human history.

[Christopher]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

We have Hitler fall from power and be replaced by a less crazy Nazi leader --Goering.

This can be really difficulty. The problem is that the entire Army of Germany, on Land, Sea and the Sky, was not sworn loyal to the country.

It was sworn loyal to Hitler.

 

He made certain that every single soldier, from field-cook to general, had sworn loyality to him and him alone. And they were serious about oaths back then. A lot of people did not help in operation "Walküre" because of that oath, not because they did not wanted him away.

[novi]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

And, just to raise a further problem, the town in question was at the time part of Germany proper. So, with German troops attacking a building on German territory, I don't get where Sentinel has any reason or case to take Hitler to the court. Hell, depending on how gullible he is, he might grab the leader of Poland and drop him off in Amsterdam instead.

 

Also, unless my international law is wrong, the court has no authority to hold a head of state. They dealt only with conflicts between nations, and that would go through the diplomatic corp of nations. And, even if they somehow managed to pin the false flag operation on him, it's not actually illegal - a cases belli for certain, but no real law exists for him to break. So all that can be done is to declare war on Germany. Oh, wait, Britain and France did so anyway in response to the invasion of Poland.

 

Basically, I can see no way in which the scenario you described changes the course of history in any noticeable way, other than to make Sentinal public enemy number one in Germany.

[Christopher]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

What can we get dispense with?

 

The Holocaust! We need Nazis committing anti-Jewish atrocities and slave labour and such, and a "perverted science" concentration/death camp for super origins. But we can get rid of the industrial scale death camps of the Auschwitz variety. The people who went to Dachau were high profile enemies of the state, not everyday Jews.

A different approach, to why the holcaust never happened:

When superpowers emerged, from all the peoples in the german speaking nations, the Jews where those with the most and the best superpowers. And they weren't give a Choice about using them: Effectively Nazi germany held the entire Jew Population as hostages. This is possible, since

a) The Generals needed the Jews and as with hitlers euthanisation/sterilization of disabeled peoples, once enough people complain even he had to follow.

Hitlers own, twisted logic supported using the Jews in warfare - at least until they could reproduce superpowers in Arian Germans

c) Once the war started, even the jews could have had an interested in seing germany winning: The Allies never wanted another "Stab-in-the-back legend" and the Russian where simply out for revenge - and no matter how forced your service was, you help teh germans and your familiy suffers too.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Cooperative Timeline

 

So throw your bandage on the timeline and move it forward, Chris!