Taking Body from excess Stun

[phoenix240]

Someone posted a houserule that said characters took Body for every so many Stun got past their defenses. A rule like that might reflect the more lethal nature of high end combat in a setting like Image more effectively then baseline Hero System. Does anyone recall that rule or who posted it?

[Beast]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

I could see setting a threshold of 10 to 20 pts of stun does 1 body

or exceeding the targets Con

of course this would only work with attacks that are meant to do body

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

IIRC, it was 1 Body per 20 Stun that got pass Defenses. Any attacks (Maybe not Mental) could cause this Damage but only items and characters subject to Stun Damage took it. I don't recall if there was an Advantage or some other means to have an attack that was truly "Stun Only".

[Christopher]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

of course this would only work with attacks that are meant to do body

The Problem I see with that is that those attacks that are meant to deal Body, are usually only killing attacks. Normal Damage Attacks will either deal that lot of Body due to the good roll or sheer amount of DC, or no body at all. The only other Mayor Stun dealer are Mental Attacks or AVAD's - both only deal Stun only, so they would not be affected either.

There is still the secondary damage from KB though (I think being KB into a "Overhead power line" is a little bit more dangerous than 5 brick walls, that perfectly absorb your KB without damaging you).

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

The Problem I see with that is that those attacks that are meant to deal Body' date=' are usually only killing attacks.[/quote']

 

 

I think he meant unless the Attack is "Stun Only".

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Normal Attacks: 1 Body per 20 Points of Stun Damage that gets passed Defenses. If the attacks rolled Body exceeds the target's Defenses the target takes the lower amount not both.

 

Killing Attacks" 1 Body per 10 Points of Stun Damage that gets past Defenses. If the Attacks Body exceeds the Target's Defenses the target takes the higher amount, not both.

 

 

NND, AVLD and Mental Attacks: 1 Body per 30 points of Stun inflicted.

 

 

These effects are based on the final Stun damage inflicted after all modifiers (hit location, Damage, Reduction, etc).

 

 

"Stun Only" is still a -0 Modifier that removes the chance of inflicting Body.

 

 

"Impregnable" is a new +1/4 Advantage that can be applied to a character's Body characteristic that negates the risk of taking Body from Excess Stun.

 

 

Body lost in the fashion can cause Bleeding and is treated like Normal Damage for this purpose. If Impairing/Disabling rules are in effect Body lost in this fashion can cause them. It is not, however, modified by Hit Location and does not cause Wounding if that optional rule is in play.

 

This sort of rule would probably work best in a setting that was meant to be "grittier" with combat having more lasting repercussions and being somewhat more lethal. Most characters couldn't battle away all day without risk of ever taking Body since they'd be losing a little here and there. If Body lost in this fashion caused Bleeding the risk increases even more. Two typical Champions Bricks could actually kill each other without buying a Killing Attack or continuing to pound on a down opponent which may or may not be suitable for some settings. I think it might be a benefit to my games since they aren't really "four color" and violence should be risky.

[Beast]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

The Blast power and Str both do body normally

it is that most PC and NPC have enough normal def that do not penetrate to do body

pretty much if it can bust down a door ,it would count

 

this of course makes KA's even more worthless

 

The Problem I see with that is that those attacks that are meant to deal Body, are usually only killing attacks. Normal Damage Attacks will either deal that lot of Body due to the good roll or sheer amount of DC, or no body at all. The only other Mayor Stun dealer are Mental Attacks or AVAD's - both only deal Stun only, so they would not be affected either.

There is still the secondary damage from KB though (I think being KB into a "Overhead power line" is a little bit more dangerous than 5 brick walls, that perfectly absorb your KB without damaging you).

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Killing Attacks will still do more Body more often and their Body is applied against Resistant Defenses only. I've never been quite happy with Killing Attacks in Hero System though.

[Beast]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

6th ed Hero system bk 2 pg 104 section C

 

c. Add all applicable forms of Defense — both

Normal and Resistant — together to determine

the character’s total Defense. Subtract

his total Defense from the STUN damage

done by the attack. The remainder is how

much STUN damage he suffers.

 

in a 60pt active game KA's average 14 body vs 12 body for normal attacks

the stun averages are 28 stun for KA's and 42 for normal

and all the def is counted vs the KA stun

 

Standard Def/rDef 20-25/12-18(middle would be 15 rDef)using 25 total Def/rDef

 

so in an average KA 0 body is done and 3 stun gets through(if you only counted rDef 13 stun gets through)

an average normal attack does 0 body and 18 stun

 

If you go with 10 stun getting through causes 1 body you have made KA's moot

in this case the Standard rDef is too high

maybe having the max rDef =to DC would have about the right balance for me ,but then 20+ stun done to get 1 body(and only 1 per hit) would be the right setting

 

Killing Attacks will still do more Body more often and their Body is applied against Resistant Defenses only. I've never been quite happy with Killing Attacks in Hero System though.

[dmjalund]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

of course this would only work with attacks that are meant to do body

unless you want to simulate knockout gases which are dangerous when overdosing

[Christopher]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Killing Attacks will still do more Body more often and their Body is applied against Resistant Defenses only. I've never been quite happy with Killing Attacks in Hero System though.

Also, I still say normal attacks are not designed to do body.

The mere fact that you can't apply Armor Piercing to their Body Damage, only their Stun damage.

Also Penetrating only affects the STUN, not the Body dealt by normal Damage Attacks.

 

So I think the rules say very clearly that normal Damage is not supposed to deal body damage.

 

Of course you can handle it however you want to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Also, I still say normal attacks are not designed to do body.

The mere fact that you can't apply Armor Piercing to their Body Damage, only their Stun damage.

 

Where do you get that? AP applies only half defenses against the attack, as I recall.

 

Also Penetrating only affects the STUN' date=' not the Body dealt by normal Damage Attacks.[/quote']

 

Penetrating KA's can, I believe, select STUN or BOD, but BOD is most common. I'm not sure how, mechanically, one would make BOD from a normal attack Penetrating, which is why I believe the option has never made it into the rules.

 

So I think the rules say very clearly that normal Damage is not supposed to deal body damage.

 

I think they say "Normal damage is more effective at dealing STUN, where Killing damage is more effective at dealing BOD". In a fistfight between two normal people, an above average roll deals BOD.

 

To me, the best way of allowing attacks - normal or killing - to inflict BOD damage on a more routine basis is to address defenses. 6e introduced the #1 best tool ever for creating a more BOD-damage based campaign - Damage Negation. Instead of Supers with 25 defenses, 15 resistant, focus them on Damage Negation. A typical Super might have 6 levels of Damage Negation, and 4 PD and ED, 2 resistant. A 12 DC normal attack will roll 6d6, average 21 STUN and 6 BOD, and get 17 STUN and 2 BOD past defenses. (compared to 42 STUN passing 17 STUN past 25 defenses, but no BOD). A 12DC KA will roll 2d6, average 7 x 2 average multiple = 14 and get 5 BOD, 10 STUN past defenses (as opposed to the 14 BOD and 28 STUN roll that gets no BOD and 3 STUN past defenses).

 

These Supers will feel very Super against normals, who will generally be unable to get damage past their 6 DC's of Negation, but when faced with higher powered opposition, they will bleed.

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

6th ed Hero system bk 2 pg 104 section C

 

c. Add all applicable forms of Defense — both

Normal and Resistant — together to determine

the character’s total Defense. Subtract

his total Defense from the STUN damage

done by the attack. The remainder is how

much STUN damage he suffers.

 

 

And the above is one of the reasons I use some things from 6th and not others.

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

6th ed Hero system bk 2 pg 104 section C

 

c. Add all applicable forms of Defense — both

Normal and Resistant — together to determine

the character’s total Defense. Subtract

his total Defense from the STUN damage

done by the attack. The remainder is how

much STUN damage he suffers.

 

in a 60pt active game KA's average 14 body vs 12 body for normal attacks

the stun averages are 28 stun for KA's and 42 for normal

and all the def is counted vs the KA stun

 

Standard Def/rDef 20-25/12-18(middle would be 15 rDef)using 25 total Def/rDef

 

so in an average KA 0 body is done and 3 stun gets through(if you only counted rDef 13 stun gets through)

an average normal attack does 0 body and 18 stun

 

If you go with 10 stun getting through causes 1 body you have made KA's moot

 

Only Killing Attacks would inflict 1 Body per 10 Stun that gets through (or Body that gets through whichever is higher). Normal Attacks inflict 1 Body per 20 Stun that gets through (or Body that gets through).

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Also, I still say normal attacks are not designed to do body.

The mere fact that you can't apply Armor Piercing to their Body Damage, only their Stun damage.

 

You can't? That something new in 6th?

 

So I think the rules say very clearly that normal Damage is not supposed to deal body damage.

.

 

Normal Attacks inflict Body damage all the time particularly at the Heroic level. "Does no Body" is listed as an option not ther default and every other instance in the rules of an Attack that does no Body by default is explicitedly stated as doing such. The Normal Attacks aren't meant to do inflict Body is a pretty big thing to read into the rules without it being explictedly stated. Characters have been killed by Normal Damage in my games and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

[Christopher]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Where do you get that? AP applies only half defenses against the attack' date=' as I recall.[/quote']

Re-read it. Mixed up Penetarting and AP here.

But since AP counts for DC calculation, you still need an exceptional roll with those 9D6 Armor Piercing to get Body past the halved defenses. Not less exceptional than doing the same with 12d6.

 

Penetrating KA's can' date=' I believe, select STUN or BOD, but BOD is most common. I'm not sure how, mechanically, one would make BOD from a normal attack Penetrating, which is why I believe the option has never made it into the rules.[/quote']

Yes, with Killing attacks you can and have to sellect if Penetrating affects Body or Stun.

The option to apply it to attacks that use "Normal Body Rolled" in the first palce is there - but only GM Option.

And the effect would be clear: The target recieves either the Normal Body Damage Rolled after defenses or the penetrating minimum effect (normal Body Damage Rolled), wichever is higher. So it would basically circumvent the defenses totally (wich is why it is normally not a good idea).

 

I think they say "Normal damage is more effective at dealing STUN' date=' where Killing damage is more effective at dealing BOD". In a fistfight between two normal people, an above average roll deals BOD.[/quote']

When "using average people" means 2 PD and 10 STR, then yes a exceptional roll of those 2d6 would deal some body. But the chances are slim: 5 combinations out of 36 (14 %).

 

These Supers will feel very Super against normals' date=' who will generally be unable to get damage past their 6 DC's of Negation, but when faced with higher powered opposition, they will bleed.[/quote']

I have realised at some point that Damage Negation works less well against Autofire than other attacks. The reason is that it directly negates DC so it's effectiveness is drops when used against attacks with advantages that count for DC-Calculation. Hughs Example (12 DC, 6 DN, 4 PD, 2 rPD), but with a 5 Shoot Autofire:

8d6, Autofire (5; +1/2), 60 AP. After -6 DC you still have: 5x4d6 (30 AP). Each shoot will deal on average 4 BODY and 14 STUN, or 0 BODY and 10 STUN. Five times means 50 STUN (likely a K.O.) and the chance to deal body (after all the chance that one out of 5 deals 1 Body is higher than that a single roll deals body).

Same attack vs. "normal" 25 PD, 15 rPD:

8d6 Autofire (5 Shots). Average roll of 8 BODY, 28 STUN. Wide in the No-Body-Range and only 15 STUN on average.

 

So this would make Armor piercing and Penetrating less usefull (counts for DC-Calculation, but very little gain when affected defenses are low anyway) and value up the "Reduced Negation adder" (you can have a 10d6 Normal Damage attack with 5 times reduced negation for 60 Base Points, so 9 DC go against our example defenses directly).

 

I've had character killed by Normal Damage. Its only really at the Superheroic level where Body from Normal damage beomes kind of a non issue.

Was this damage within the DC range for their Power Level? Or way above, like Environmental effects tend to be? Like I said above: Enough difference (14d6 Blast vs. Standart Heroic defenses) and even Normal damage will deal Body damage - propably enough to kill in two shots.

[Christopher]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

I compared the guideliens a little bit. It seems indeed that lower powered campaigns have higher chance to deal Body damage with Normal attacks (just compare the Maximum DC with the maxiumum normal Defenses).

That is not so true at Standart Superheroic and at Power Superheroic there is sometimes only a slim chance even with a Haymaker (so you can field additional 4 DC beyond the limit).

[Vulcan]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

1 Body per 10-20 Stun? You guys are getting off light.

 

The GM I used to have used 1 Body per 2 Stun. We lost sooooooo many characters that way - usually bricks.

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

Re-read it. Mixed up Penetarting and AP here.

But since AP counts for DC calculation, you still need an exceptional roll with those 9D6 Armor Piercing to get Body past the halved defenses. Not less exceptional than doing the same with 12d6.

 

 

Yes, with Killing attacks you can and have to sellect if Penetrating affects Body or Stun.

The option to apply it to attacks that use "Normal Body Rolled" in the first palce is there - but only GM Option.

And the effect would be clear: The target recieves either the Normal Body Damage Rolled after defenses or the penetrating minimum effect (normal Body Damage Rolled), wichever is higher. So it would basically circumvent the defenses totally (wich is why it is normally not a good idea).

 

 

When "using average people" means 2 PD and 10 STR, then yes a exceptional roll of those 2d6 would deal some body. But the chances are slim: 5 combinations out of 36 (14 %).

 

 

I have realised at some point that Damage Negation works less well against Autofire than other attacks. The reason is that it directly negates DC so it's effectiveness is drops when used against attacks with advantages that count for DC-Calculation. Hughs Example (12 DC, 6 DN, 4 PD, 2 rPD), but with a 5 Shoot Autofire:

8d6, Autofire (5; +1/2), 60 AP. After -6 DC you still have: 5x4d6 (30 AP). Each shoot will deal on average 4 BODY and 14 STUN, or 0 BODY and 10 STUN. Five times means 50 STUN (likely a K.O.) and the chance to deal body (after all the chance that one out of 5 deals 1 Body is higher than that a single roll deals body).

Same attack vs. "normal" 25 PD, 15 rPD:

8d6 Autofire (5 Shots). Average roll of 8 BODY, 28 STUN. Wide in the No-Body-Range and only 15 STUN on average.

 

So this would make Armor piercing and Penetrating less usefull (counts for DC-Calculation, but very little gain when affected defenses are low anyway) and value up the "Reduced Negation adder" (you can have a 10d6 Normal Damage attack with 5 times reduced negation for 60 Base Points, so 9 DC go against our example defenses directly).

 

 

Was this damage within the DC range for their Power Level? Or way above, like Environmental effects tend to be? Like I said above: Enough difference (14d6 Blast vs. Standart Heroic defenses) and even Normal damage will deal Body damage - propably enough to kill in two shots.

 

 

Well within. It's not hard to beat someone to death with a club. I'm really not sure where you're getting Normal Damage was not "meant" to inflict Body. It does regularly on characters and objects. That's like saying characters aren't supposed to be able to break tihngs with their barehands unless they get a killing attack.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

If you really want to be doing more BODY damage, just buy more lethal attacks, either with Advantages or more DC. I don't think there is any reason to give extra bonuses to normal or killing attacks so they can inflict more BODY; that is just going to make things more complicated.

 

The one time I can see this rule coming into play is for NND attacks that are STUN-only, but could still potentially kill someone in real life (knockout gas or a taser or somesuch). Most of the time I would just GM fiat that, but for more realism you might want a house rule for it. I think I would go for something like 1 BODY if the character is stunned by the attack, or possibly 1 BODY for every 6 rolled if they fail a CON roll or something. You would have to play with the numbers depending on how lethal you want it to be. Be careful though; Does BODY is a +1 Advantage on NND attacks for a good reason.

[Tech]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

I tried using this once in the campaign I GM in. The players didn't like it, and after some thought, neither did I as GM. I guess it depends on your players and campaign setting.

[Netzilla]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

The one time I can see this rule coming into play is for NND attacks that are STUN-only' date=' but could still potentially kill someone in real life (knockout gas or a taser or somesuch). Most of the time I would just GM fiat that, but for more realism you might want a house rule for it. [/quote']

 

Personally, I think this kind of thing is better handled with a Susceptibility or Physical Complication as such cases seem to be relatively rare and almost always involve complicating medical conditions.

 

I think I would go for something like 1 BODY if the character is stunned by the attack, or possibly 1 BODY for every 6 rolled if they fail a CON roll or something. You would have to play with the numbers depending on how lethal you want it to be. Be careful though; Does BODY is a +1 Advantage on NND attacks for a good reason.

Another possibility, if you're playing in a sufficiently gritty game, is to simply make more attacks Killing rather than Normal. Quite frankly, smacking someone upside the head with a baseball bat is has a pretty good chance of being lethal; higher than the Hero System generally gives it credit for, anyway. Simply rule that any sufficiently large attack should be built as a Killing attack unless it's expressly designed to be "non-lethal" (like tasers and KO gasses).

[Christopher]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

How I get the impression that Normal Attacks aren't supposed to deal Body in Superheroic games?

- Killing attacks deal more body (on avery 20% as one of the original playtesters remarked), but less stun

- Blast deals a lot more stun, but way less body

- 14 DC vs 20 Normal Defense. That the worst combination shown in the guidelines. The sheer amount of combinations make actually rolling 21 or more Body damage near impossible.

- you can't make the Body of Normal Damage Penetrating, without GM permission.

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

1 Body per 10-20 Stun? You guys are getting off light.

 

The GM I used to have used 1 Body per 2 Stun. We lost sooooooo many characters that way - usually bricks.

 

Yeah. That sounds like overkill (no pun intended). The intention is to make Body damage somewhat more common not to make combat insanely lethal. Characters will have to pace themselves and several combats a day will be more dangerous. On the other end, Characters with CaKs won't be justified in whaling away on lightly armored target secure that they can't really do much if any lethal (Body) damage to them even though their attacks would blow through walls.

[phoenix240]

Re: Taking Body from excess Stun

 

I tried using this once in the campaign I GM in. The players didn't like it' date=' and after some thought, neither did I as GM. I guess it depends on your players and campaign setting.[/quote']

 

What turned you off on the idea?