Draining Life Support

[quozaxx]

I have had many applicant want to apply the Unified Power Limitation to their Life Support.

 

Unified means (in part) that when you Drain one power, you Drain all the related powers as well.

 

The question is "Can you Drain Life support?" or more accurately "How do you Drain Life Support?"

 

Is it like Desolidfication where you have to Drain all of Life Support?

 

If you have, let's say, Safe Environment, Longevity, and Self-Contained Breathing, how do you Drain those?

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

The ruling that applies to desolidifcation applies to any power with "Fixed Minimum Cost"/"Flat cost" power. (6E1 138, rigth side)

 

Since you can just buy all the LS as one Power (technically all Life Support is just one power), you just apply the Unified to that single power (costing the summ of it's parts) and once Character Points equal to the active Points are drained, all cheases to function at once (but as usual the character knows his powers are being drained, before they are totally lost).

 

At least that what I think. I would propably consider LS not bought as a Focus consider inherent, so only Transform can steal it (like you can't drain Sight or LS: Your normal Atmosphere).

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I've only had two times where an Adjustment power was used against Life Support. I've tried to take it on a case-by-case basis and use common sense in each case.

 

In one case, it was a luck-based Dispel used against a powered-armor character, so it was an all-or-nothing thing. The player rolled high enough, so I said that an erroneous electronic signal caused all of the seals in the powered armor to open.

 

In the other (more relevant) case, the radiation-based PC had a Force Field with linked Life Support (scb, temp extremes, pressure extremes, and radiation). When she got hit with a Drain, I set an order for the LS categories, with them dropping off the end as the power drained enough points from the LS. IIRC, I made the base LS: radiation (because of the SFX), then cold, heat, scb, vacuum, and then high pressure. The attacker had to roll enough effect to drain all of a category before it went away. So if he Drained, say, 5 points, the vacuum and high pressure parts went away but the self-contained breathing stuck around until 8 more points were Drained.

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I've only had two times where an Adjustment power was used against Life Support. I've tried to take it on a case-by-case basis and use common sense in each case.

 

In one case, it was a luck-based Dispel used against a powered-armor character, so it was an all-or-nothing thing. The player rolled high enough, so I said that an erroneous electronic signal caused all of the seals in the powered armor to open.

Dispel is not a Adjustment power (Standart and Attack). And it targeted the Focus, not the powers themself. And with the focus dispelled, of course all it's power are gone too.

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

Went the easy way and asked Steve. Added a question if it can even be Dispelled:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86191-Life-Support-Dispel-and-Drain?p=2194205#post2194205

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I would probably rule it like Desolidification; you have to drain it all. Mostly because either it doesn't matter because the external environment is safe, or suddenly losing it all would be fatal because you're in outer space or something.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

Dispel is not a Adjustment power (Standart and Attack). And it targeted the Focus' date=' not the powers themself. And with the focus dispelled, of course all it's power are gone too.[/quote']

 

My apologies for my mistake on the first part. Dispel is indeed a Standard / Attack power, not an Adjustment power.

 

As to the second part however, no, Dispel doesn't dispel the Focus (unless it is bought as Dispel All Techological Powers, assuming the GM would approve such a construct). It typically dispels a Power (or Powers, if bought with the appropriate Advantages).

 

In the case in question, the power was called Gremlins in the Gears and was bought (in 5th edition) as Dispel vs any one technological power. (Since technology is not an SFX but is instead a larger collection of SFXs, as GM I allowed this but at double the Advantage value.)

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

As to the second part however' date=' no, Dispel doesn't dispel the Focus (unless it is bought as Dispel All Techological Powers, assuming the GM would approve such a construct). It typically dispels a Power (or Powers, if bought with the appropriate Advantages).[/quote']

Right, that was my error. But it has additional/longterm effect when used against somethign bought as part of a focus. From the description of it, repairing the "Damge" of a Dispel against a Focus (so the power is operational again) is equal to recovering a recoverable focus in difficulty.

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

Finally a answer from Steve Long:

Life Support is as subject to being Drained or Dispelled as any other Power. See 6E1 138, middle right column, regarding how to Adjust abilities bought with multiple types of increments.

 

There's no rule specifically forbidding a character to apply Unified Power to Life Support along with one or more other powers, but whether to permit this is, as always, up to the GM.

[Balabanto]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I follow a common sense rule here. Don't drain things that shouldn't logically be able to be drained. Plus, Life Support is a defense. Draining it is already cost-prohibitive if the character has any significant amount of it. The best thing to do is just say "Life Support is automatically inherent. It can't be drained, aided, or otherwise suppressed." Maybe if the character's LS was provided by an energy field. Maybe.

 

But in general, Life Support Drains look to me like a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules rather than an attempt to creatively use them. Plus it leads to weirdness with AVAD. If I drain eight points of Life Support, which eight points do I drain? If I drain the points that defend against the AVAD, then can he be affected? What if I only drain some of them?

 

This is nothing but a logistical nightmare for GMs and players alike.

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I follow a common sense rule here. Don't drain things that shouldn't logically be able to be drained. Plus' date=' Life Support is a defense. Draining it is already cost-prohibitive if the character has any significant amount of it. The best thing to do is just say "Life Support is automatically inherent. It can't be drained, aided, or otherwise suppressed." Maybe if the character's LS was provided by an energy field. Maybe.[/quote']

You natural Breathing Environment is inherent, but the LS does not needs to be. Energy fields can be destroyed, air recycling can be stopped, Air supplies can be "frozen"(temporarliy unavaiible) when you have supperpowers in the ring.

 

But in general' date=' Life Support Drains look to me like a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules rather than an attempt to creatively use them.[/quote']

How does it curcumvent any rule? LS is a power, drain is power that drains powers, and dispel is a power that dispells powers. Buying them inherent is certainly something that should be considered for things that are "design based" (it's a robot/his species does not requires air) rather than the bilogical, technical or magical sollution for otherwise normal biological beings.

 

Plus it leads to weirdness with AVAD. If I drain eight points of Life Support' date=' which eight points do I drain? If I drain the points that defend against the AVAD, then can he be affected? What if I only drain some of them?[/quote']

The GM decides what is drained first, like he has to decide it with Tunneling.

About draining a specific LS: I think you could build a "Drain Toxin Immunities", the same way you can build a Drain ED. But that could be a gamebreaking combination (if you or someone in your team has a NND stopped by that Resistance, this would be a try to make the NND an absolute).

[Tasha]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

Actually some context may be required here. I am the player who had the character with her LS Longevity Unified power (Healing Factor) along with her Resistant Protection (Fast healing) and Regeneration. All three powers share the same special effect as being part of her super fast healing. So it seems logical that with her Resistant Protection and Regen, that the Immorality that having both provide would allow her to take Unified power on that Immorality.

 

I guess one could have an aging power that would drain someone's immortality for a while. Though the character is still quite young and the loss of this LS would mean nothing. It's more of a flavor power that I would be surprised if the GM's ever found a way for it to be advantageous. The Unified Power made the 5 Active point flavor power a 4 Real Point power.

 

I honestly didn't think that anyone would object to it seeing as the power will never come up in a game (outside of RPing perhaps).

 

PS I removed the Unified power from the LS Immortality. Mostly because it wasn't worth arguing about 1 point.

[Balabanto]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

You natural Breathing Environment is inherent, but the LS does not needs to be. Energy fields can be destroyed, air recycling can be stopped, Air supplies can be "frozen"(temporarliy unavaiible) when you have supperpowers in the ring.

 

 

How does it curcumvent any rule? LS is a power, drain is power that drains powers, and dispel is a power that dispells powers. Buying them inherent is certainly something that should be considered for things that are "design based" (it's a robot/his species does not requires air) rather than the bilogical, technical or magical sollution for otherwise normal biological beings.

 

 

The GM decides what is drained first, like he has to decide it with Tunneling.

About draining a specific LS: I think you could build a "Drain Toxin Immunities", the same way you can build a Drain ED. But that could be a gamebreaking combination (if you or someone in your team has a NND stopped by that Resistance, this would be a try to make the NND an absolute).

 

You're missing the context. Life support is built as a group of separate powers. This is like building "Extra Limb Drain." No one buys their Extra Limbs inherent, because everyone forgets that it exists, but think of a GM who would bother building "Extra Limb Drain."

 

Likewise, Stretching, Super Strength and Extra Limbs is more powerful than Telekinesis in 6th edition, but no one builds it that way. This is why common sense is sort of like common law. There are generally accepted principles of character design and rules design that everyone follows, whether or not they're aware of it. What you're actually doing right now is rules lawyering, rather than being helpful.

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I guess one could have an aging power that would drain someone's immortality for a while. Though the character is still quite young and the loss of this LS would mean nothing. It's more of a flavor power that I would be surprised if the GM's ever found a way for it to be advantageous. The Unified Power made the 5 Active point flavor power a 4 Real Point power.

Aging: Drain, NDD[stopped by having at least 1 point Longelivity, because aging doesn't affects you that much]. Life Support is there to be the D in NND.

Their longelivity once saved the day for the Gargoyles, so who says it will not be true for other Superheroes too?

 

You're missing the context. Life support is built as a group of separate powers. This is like building "Extra Limb Drain." No one buys their Extra Limbs inherent' date=' because everyone forgets that it exists, but think of a GM who would bother building "Extra Limb Drain."[/quote']

It es explicitly noted in the desicrption of 6E Extra Limbs, so when you forget to read the description of the power your buy it is your fault. And when the player meant Extra Limbs that are inherent, it's only one point to change that after the adventure and let it run as inherent right now.

One example of Extralimbs that can be drained: You create energy constructs that take the form of arms.

And you don't need a "Drain Extra Limbs" to affect them. A Drain expanded to work against all Energy Cosntruct powers is sufficcient here.

 

Likewise, Stretching, Super Strength and Extra Limbs is more powerful than Telekinesis in 6th edition, but no one builds it that way. This is why common sense is sort of like common law. There are generally accepted principles of character design and rules design that everyone follows, whether or not they're aware of it. What you're actually doing right now is rules lawyering, rather than being helpful.

TK does not activates Damage shields. And nobody can grab your TK (but your stretched hands are no problem, no matter how many of them you have). Fuhrter streching has to be devided among all effectd limbs.

20 M Stretching and 4 Arms means:

1 at +20m

4 at +5 m each

1 at +17 and 3 at +1 each

or any other combination.

 

Or in short: No, TK and Streching with Extra Limbs are nowhere near equal.

[Tasha]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

The character now has Life Support Longevity 1600years 4 Active points.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I follow a common sense rule here. Don't drain things that shouldn't logically be able to be drained. Plus, Life Support is a defense. Draining it is already cost-prohibitive if the character has any significant amount of it. The best thing to do is just say "Life Support is automatically inherent. It can't be drained, aided, or otherwise suppressed." Maybe if the character's LS was provided by an energy field. Maybe.

 

But in general, Life Support Drains look to me like a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules rather than an attempt to creatively use them. Plus it leads to weirdness with AVAD. If I drain eight points of Life Support, which eight points do I drain? If I drain the points that defend against the AVAD, then can he be affected? What if I only drain some of them?

 

This is nothing but a logistical nightmare for GMs and players alike.

 

Frankly, Drain itself is potentially a logistical nightmare for GMs and players alike, especially if dealing with Unified powers. I know I had a heck of a time recalculating powers after a 5th edition character with an Elemental Control got hit with a Drain on one of her EC powers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I follow a common sense rule here. Don't drain things that shouldn't logically be able to be drained. Plus, Life Support is a defense. Draining it is already cost-prohibitive if the character has any significant amount of it. The best thing to do is just say "Life Support is automatically inherent. It can't be drained, aided, or otherwise suppressed." Maybe if the character's LS was provided by an energy field. Maybe.

 

But in general, Life Support Drains look to me like a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules rather than an attempt to creatively use them. Plus it leads to weirdness with AVAD. If I drain eight points of Life Support, which eight points do I drain? If I drain the points that defend against the AVAD, then can he be affected? What if I only drain some of them?

 

This is nothing but a logistical nightmare for GMs and players alike.

 

I agree with this. And for the case of the character's LS provided by an energy field, it should probably be Linked instead of Unified.

 

Most 'Drain Power-By-Name' powers are rather wonky in any event. I can't think of any way to Drain Life Support, or most individual Powers. It seems to be more of a side effect of things like using 'Drain All Cosmic Energy Powers' on a cosmic character or 'Drain All Technological Powers' on someone with a battlesuit (which tend to have some Life Support powers).

 

Edit: thinking about it more, I can't think of any scenario in which LS: Longevity has ever mattered in a game i've run or played in. I may make that one just a no-points background element ...

[Christopher]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

I can't think of any way to Drain Life Support' date=' or most individual Powers. It seems to be more of a side effect of things like using 'Drain All Cosmic Energy Powers' on a cosmic character or 'Drain All Technological Powers' on someone with a battlesuit (which tend to have some Life Support powers).[/quote']

I generally have difficutly to think of a SFX for most single things Drains, so I doubt this is a specific problem for LS. It get's clearer once you have a specific SFX to go against.

 

Edit: thinking about it more, I can't think of any scenario in which LS: Longevity has ever mattered in a game i've run or played in. I may make that one just a no-points background element ...

Really, the main reason for LS is to block NND types of damage (APG 105 dicusses that). This includes things like High/Low Teperature/Low Oxigen level (a REC/Long term End Drain, NND).

 

If it matters in you game depends only if you can envision a NND or UAA that is blocked by that LS Power.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

In the case that I cited, the character had a radiation Elemental Control that included a Force Field and linked Life Support, Usable by Other. IIRC, she was getting sprayed with heavily-leaded paint, which was interfering with her emitting radiation. The Drain was on her personal Force Field, but since it was in an Elemental Control, all of her other EC powers were also reduced, including the UBO Force Field / LS. And the SFX of that Drain made logical sense, at least to me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Draining Life Support

 

Careful thought is required whenever Unified Power is applied to a character's powers.

 

Do characters like Marvel's Rogue or DC's Parasite in your character's gameworld?

 

How would you model the way Parasite 'steals' Superman's powers in the comics?

 

I did it by applying the 5e version of Unified to Superman's Power Framework but not to his other 'default' powers. If I were to ever finish Parasite I would probably give him 2 different Drains, one big one vs. single powers and another smaller one with advantages vs. multiple powers. That in combination with the way I applied 'Unified' ensures that it will take several 'drain attacks' for Parasite to steal all of Superman's different powers and in the process Superman still keeps bits of the lesser ones a little longer.