CrosshairCollie Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I'm not sure what Pancaking Power builds means? And what about Power Creep? I apologize if I'm pestering you but I have a friend that's thinking of moving some (or maybe all) of his games over to Mutants and Masterminds. If he decides to do so, go into it with an open mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevelon Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Played the first two editions of MnM...Might get teh DCHeroes sourcebook cause of the art/conversion opportunities. I was not thrilled that in order to play a super strong character you essentially had 2 or 3 powers/types of Strength...and that lifting power is basically non factor in combat - but then I don't like the attack/save vs damage mechanic much. I prefer hit points and Armor class - even done badly (like Rifts) and vastly prefer the Stun/Body Mechanic for most of my games. The STR thing is actually something I like about it. You can take a power to get a lot of the fluff/tricks of being super strong, but not be able to casually KO every bad guy. Of course, you could do the same in Hero with STR, (does not apply to damage) Same thing with "speed tricks" I've not seen the new DC version, but whenever I play M&M, I get the feeling that it really needs another edition to tighten up it's rules. Not sure if the latest ed. fixed a lot of what needed it, but it might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... That's the first thing I've heard I liked. Lucius Alexander Palindromedaries and Palaces Bah it makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... So wait, you can, for instance, get a character that can lift 40,000 tons but they won't hit any harder than a typical Joe unless you get something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevelon Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... So wait' date=' you can, for instance, get a character that can lift 40,000 tons but they won't hit any harder than a typical Joe unless you get something else?[/quote'] If I am remembering correctly. In the last game I was playing, I was a gadgeteer, not the brick, so didn't pay that close attention to the brick powers. I do remember that we had two bricks in our group, one who had just bought his STR to the campaign max, and the other who bought some STR, and a few ranks of the "brick tricks" power. The first could put his fist through just about anything (and blew the power curve for the rest of us --M&M has some bad scaling issues) while the second did more "normal" damage, but could pick up cars and toss them around. You can do builds like this in Hero, with a brick trick multipower and partially limited STR. M&M has it neatly codified into one power. One of the things that gives it an edge in the "ease of play" category. M&M is trying to keep the fast simplicity of the d20 system while allowing the flexibility of Hero. It kinda succeeds, but there are a lot of kludges and compromises. If you have the chops for it, I'd just go with Hero; but Mutants and Masterminds does make for a good "gateway game" to break people off of d20 slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... If I am remembering correctly. In the last game I was playing, I was a gadgeteer, not the brick, so didn't pay that close attention to the brick powers. I do remember that we had two bricks in our group, one who had just bought his STR to the campaign max, and the other who bought some STR, and a few ranks of the "brick tricks" power. The first could put his fist through just about anything (and blew the power curve for the rest of us --M&M has some bad scaling issues) while the second did more "normal" damage, but could pick up cars and toss them around. Seems odd for the default way of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Seems odd for the default way of doing things. Makes as much sense as DEX not affecting CVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... So wait' date=' you can, for instance, get a character that can lift 40,000 tons but they won't hit any harder than a typical Joe unless you get something else?[/quote'] more what Nevelon said; "Super Strength" Was a power you could buy your strength up to 18 and then have Super strength that would enable you to lift lots but you'd have the same combat bonus (IIRC) as the martial arts guy who had an 18 and no Super Strength. One thing I should note (again) is that there isn't really a "Damage" mechanic. You don't take damage, you make a damage save. So Super Strength might have affected that...I can't remember. MnM was one of the losers in the "Which Games Will I keep when I move" game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Makes as much sense as DEX not affecting CVs. Hmm Perhaps...which means I could be missing something because I was able to get past that. It ends up being more like Marvel Superhero's FASERIP stats where Fighting (Hitting and Blocking) was separated from Agility (throwing and dodging) and further breaking that down I can see (but it makes me wonder why so many marvel characters don't optimize their fighting style to their natural abilites...) I do have quite a bit of resistance to the idea that someone who can lift a bus would be unable to hit harder than someone who can't lift a bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Hmm Perhaps...which means I could be missing something because I was able to get past that. It ends up being more like Marvel Superhero's FASERIP stats where Fighting (Hitting and Blocking) was separated from Agility (throwing and dodging) and further breaking that down I can see (but it makes me wonder why so many marvel characters don't optimize their fighting style to their natural abilites...) I do have quite a bit of resistance to the idea that someone who can lift a bus would be unable to hit harder than someone who can't lift a bus. I have a bit of resistance to the idea that someone who can put a hole in a steel vault couldn't also put a hole in a person or a tank or a robot, but in Hero buying Tunneling doesn't get me a Killing Attack. I have to buy the Killing Attack seperately. Of course, that also makes me wonder if we really need Tunneling. Perhaps Crosshair Collie had the best point - it makes as much sense as divorcing CV and DEX. In fact, it makes more sense. In previous discussions online here, the point has already been made that the kind of (relatively) slow application of force involved in lifting weights is not the same as the "explosive" power released in a punch or kick, and even on the scale of human athletes the correlation is not direct. I think distinguishing between "lifting and moving mass" and "damaging targets" is much more logical than arguing that the complex of abilities we lump under "Dexterity" has no direct bearing on ones chances of executing or of evading a physical attack. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary observes that you can't make hasenpfeffer without splitting hares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Actually the Super Strength does factor in. In Grappling and Throwing. For punching not so much but I'd have to check the new rules to see what it went to now since stuff layers a touch differently. Just don't feel like looking it up just yet. d20 makes gives me a stomach ache do I have to work up to it. As for the HERO and Dex being seperated from CV. GOOD. I got sick and tired of my "Heavy Weight Champion of the World turned Vigilante" also having to be "The Worlds Greatest Gynmast and Tightrope Walker Ever!" (Unless I wanted to do one of the cheesy Power Gamer sell backs to get Exactly the same effect as divorcing CV from Dex gives me in the first place). Besides, there are still plenty of Dex related things that give you more CV if you bother to use them. Back to the topic though. Friends don't Let Friends do MnM. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It does sound somewhat wonky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It does sound somewhat wonky. Lot of wonky thing with it. I like to think of it as a quarter pounder value meal from McDonald's. Some times that hits the spot, like when you have no other option or you got a coupon. The rest of the time I prefer good home cookin. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... In M&M 3e (DC Adventures, whatever), strength is now tied to both lifting and damage. The game now uses the old AP chart from Mayfair's DC Heroes game. Although, for some reason the character builds for a lot of the main DCU bricks (Superman, Wonder Woman, and a few others) have two strength listings. For example, Superman has a main Str of 19 (95 in HERO) and extra strength with the limitation that he can only use it for lifting (equivalent to about 20 Str). I think the reason they had two different versions of strength in 2e is because of its ties to D20. Now that M&M and D20 have parted company (sort of) they don't have to restrict themselves to purely D20 stats. They've actually renamed the stats and added a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I have a bit of resistance to the idea that someone who can put a hole in a steel vault couldn't also put a hole in a person or a tank or a robot, but in Hero buying Tunneling doesn't get me a Killing Attack. I have to buy the Killing Attack seperately. Of course, that also makes me wonder if we really need Tunneling. Perhaps Crosshair Collie had the best point - it makes as much sense as divorcing CV and DEX. In fact, it makes more sense. In previous discussions online here, the point has already been made that the kind of (relatively) slow application of force involved in lifting weights is not the same as the "explosive" power released in a punch or kick, and even on the scale of human athletes the correlation is not direct. I think distinguishing between "lifting and moving mass" and "damaging targets" is much more logical than arguing that the complex of abilities we lump under "Dexterity" has no direct bearing on ones chances of executing or of evading a physical attack. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary observes that you can't make hasenpfeffer without splitting hares Not at all sure how it makes more sense. A person with a high strength can put a hole in a tank or a robot without tunneling. And another person for that matter. Tunneling is a movement power. Yes they make some nice "Break throw doors easily" abilities with it, but it isn't an attack power. I don't get your example at all. I can conceive of high lifting strength accompanying low damage but that's a limitation (STR only to Lift) they have the opposite, it's called "Hand to Hand Attack" or "Martial Arts." So I think HERO does it fine. So no, I still don't see your logic train heading my way. Edit: Sorry for thread Drift. Lucius if you want to gently nudge my noggin on this subject maybe we could go to a new thread? OR PM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... In M&M 3e (DC Adventures' date=' whatever), strength is now tied to [i']both[/i] lifting and damage. The game now uses the old AP chart from Mayfair's DC Heroes game. Although, for some reason the character builds for a lot of the main DCU bricks (Superman, Wonder Woman, and a few others) have two strength listings. For example, Superman has a main Str of 19 (95 in HERO) and extra strength with the limitation that he can only use it for lifting (equivalent to about 20 Str). I think the reason they had two different versions of strength in 2e is because of its ties to D20. Now that M&M and D20 have parted company (sort of) they don't have to restrict themselves to purely D20 stats. They've actually renamed the stats and added a few. Sooo I may have to get the DC game just to see eh? You smooth talker you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Actually the Super Strength does factor in. In Grappling and Throwing. For punching not so much but I'd have to check the new rules to see what it went to now since stuff layers a touch differently. Just don't feel like looking it up just yet. d20 makes gives me a stomach ache do I have to work up to it. As for the HERO and Dex being seperated from CV. GOOD. I got sick and tired of my "Heavy Weight Champion of the World turned Vigilante" also having to be "The Worlds Greatest Gynmast and Tightrope Walker Ever!" (Unless I wanted to do one of the cheesy Power Gamer sell backs to get Exactly the same effect as divorcing CV from Dex gives me in the first place). Besides, there are still plenty of Dex related things that give you more CV if you bother to use them. ~Rex Now if only there were examples of such a thing out there...oh yeah, Low Dex lots of levels Not sure why that was never tried... Like I said, I got used to it and can wrap my mind around it but I didn't see the need. If you don't want your Heavyweight champ to not be a tightrope walker, don't give him acrobatics. Then all that DEX and he'd still have an 8- roll. (though catching his fall would be easier with those quick hands of his). Darnit! I'm drifting again! My apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Sooo I may have to get the DC game just to see eh? You smooth talker you! I thought the theme of this thread was "Friends Don't Let Friends Play M&M" ? Yeah, I know Rex said it, but that might be for the best. Frankly, looked over 3e, don't know if I ever want to play it. It uses an effects based system similar to HERO and I don't know if I want to play D20 HERO. (Is that a meme? Could we turn that into a meme? I like a good meme.) Right now I'm busy trying to digest the massiveness that is Hero 6e (don't need the BR thanks. I've been following HERO since Champs 2e). Liking what I see so far. HAPs have the potential to way cooler than M&Ms Hero Points. Also loving the toolkitting chapters. Not switching anytime soon. Thanks. Good Night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Now if only there were examples of such a thing out there...oh yeah, Low Dex lots of levels Not sure why that was never tried... Like I said, I got used to it and can wrap my mind around it but I didn't see the need. If you don't want your Heavyweight champ to not be a tightrope walker, don't give him acrobatics. Then all that DEX and he'd still have an 8- roll. (though catching his fall would be easier with those quick hands of his). Darnit! I'm drifting again! My apologies. Oh I agree, it's how I built my guys that I wanted that way. In an OCEAN of folks that didn't or went for the sell back etc etc .....It's just cleaner now, right there at the beginning. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Oh I agree, it's how I built my guys that I wanted that way. In an OCEAN of folks that didn't or went for the sell back etc etc .....It's just cleaner now, right there at the beginning. ~Rex *nods* One of my 5e projects was building Batman, Black Canary, and Nightwing differently - Bruce was biggest and strongest (STR, CON, etc) and Had lowest DEX (this is an older Bats) but high skills, Lightning reflexes etc. Dinah was middle of the road Dex and lowest mass/power. Dick had the highest DEX and Middle of the others...but all in all they had similar OCV/DCV (counting Levels) and acted close on my DEX chart - but I have no editorial bias and had Bruce my "slowest." I was highly critical of the change but I've worked around it. I had no trouble going the skill levels route, but I can see the elegance of the loss of Figured Characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... If I want details, I use HERO. If I want ease of play, I use M&M. That's not to say M&M can't make nuanced characters, or HERO can't be easy to game in, but the systems handle the respectively mentioned traits better than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I thought the theme of this thread was "Friends Don't Let Friends Play M&M" ? Yeah, I know Rex said it, but that might be for the best. Frankly, looked over 3e, don't know if I ever want to play it. It uses an effects based system similar to HERO and I don't know if I want to play D20 HERO. (Is that a meme? Could we turn that into a meme? I like a good meme.) Right now I'm busy trying to digest the massiveness that is Hero 6e (don't need the BR thanks. I've been following HERO since Champs 2e). Liking what I see so far. HAPs have the potential to way cooler than M&Ms Hero Points. Also loving the toolkitting chapters. Not switching anytime soon. Thanks. Good Night. Well I enjoyed MnM on some level, and I have owned just about every DC/Marvel Licensed game at least for a while. So I convincing myself to get this one isn't that great of a stretch and certainly no threat to my HERO devotism. I loved the old Mayfair DC game ...in part because it's character creation process and setup was similar to Champions and made for easy conversion. I stuck with it (as a collection and conversion tool) through the loss of the DC license and the Blood of Heroes days...(by the way those of us who have grimaced at some of the Hero Art here and there...just look at Blood of Heroes sometime and understand how relatively good we've had it.) But in the end I get such books for one purpose only, to gauge the official characters for write ups in HERO. then I go look for art... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Well I enjoyed MnM on some level, and I have owned just about every DC/Marvel Licensed game at least for a while. So I convincing myself to get this one isn't that great of a stretch and certainly no threat to my HERO devotism. I loved the old Mayfair DC game ...in part because it's character creation process and setup was similar to Champions and made for easy conversion. I stuck with it (as a collection and conversion tool) through the loss of the DC license and the Blood of Heroes days...(by the way those of us who have grimaced at some of the Hero Art here and there...just look at Blood of Heroes sometime and understand how relatively good we've had it.) But in the end I get such books for one purpose only, to gauge the official characters for write ups in HERO. then I go look for art... Blood of Heroes never happened. Never. It was just, some ugly that crept into the beautiful MEGS system........Still though, the BoH books were handy for lining the bird cage. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Blood of Heroes never happened. Never. It was just, some ugly that crept into the beautiful MEGS system........Still though, the BoH books were handy for lining the bird cage. ~Rex Starting campfires... *sigh* I was so into the MEGS website, did a lot of character conversions to MEGS just for the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Sounds like the third edition is significantly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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