Hugh Neilson Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Now if only there were examples of such a thing out there...oh yeah, Low Dex lots of levels Not sure why that was never tried... I am - because it was excessively costly to achieve a result that was weaker. Had 6e retained figured characteristics, I would have hoped to see DEX priced appropriately for the value of OCV, DCV, SPD and other abilities it provides, not be the bargain basement purchase it has been in the past. Whether that meant enhancing the cost of DEX or reducing the cost of the components of DEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Lessee ... 18 DEX costs 24, 26 DEX costs 48. Difference, 24. So, 18 DEX with 5 Levels in HTH or Ranged combat, whichever the character specializes in. OCV 11 when he needs it, DCV 11 when he needs it, compared to a static 9. Can average a difference of 1 or 2, one way or the other, if he's not sure where he wants to go. OR ... Plus, the ability to deal +15 damage on his Normal attacks if he doesn't need OCV or DCV, or +2 Body on his Killing attacks with a spare +1 OCV or DCV. I think that kind of versatility is worth the expenditure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Lessee ... 18 DEX costs 24, 26 DEX costs 48. Difference, 24. So, 18 DEX with 5 Levels in HTH or Ranged combat, whichever the character specializes in. OCV 11 when he needs it, DCV 11 when he needs it, compared to a static 9. Can average a difference of 1 or 2, one way or the other, if he's not sure where he wants to go. OR ... Plus, the ability to deal +15 damage on his Normal attacks if he doesn't need OCV or DCV, or +2 Body on his Killing attacks with a spare +1 OCV or DCV. I think that kind of versatility is worth the expenditure. What about the DEX Skill Levels you need to make up the difference in your skill rolls? Or the extra points you might need to spend on SPD? I really enjoy the versatility of CSLs, but it's not the same, and your example does not show the two things being equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Monkey Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Makes as much sense as DEX not affecting CVs. Good point. Of course, this is why some of us out here in Gamer Land are not making the big switch to Hero 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Lessee ... 18 DEX costs 24' date=' 26 DEX costs 48. Difference, 24.[/quote'] Except you now spend 8 points to maintain your speed, so the actual cost of DEX is 2 points. +8 DEX, no figured, costs 16. So' date=' 18 DEX with 5 Levels in HTH or Ranged combat, whichever the character specializes in.[/quote'] Except that's three levels, or two with all combat (for a character who might, say, throw a punch AND throw a Batarang). And that ignores the possibility the GM follows the rules and holds you to DCV against attacks your level is relevant to (ie no Range DCV with HTH levels). OCV 11 when he needs it' date=' DCV 11 when he needs it, compared to a static 9.[/quote'] A static 9 or 9 in one of the two (only 8 if he needs range and HTH). The potential to add a DC at the cost of CV doesn't offset that drop. He also moves later and has poorer DEX rolls. Maybe add the cost of DEX skill levels (which still allow only one roll at a time, so no complementary roll bonuses) and Lightning Reflexes to your analysis so we're making a better comparison.. Non-combat skill levels are also overpriced. The excess cost of levels had some basis in 5e and earlier - if you hit NCM, these are a much better buy. But in Supers games? Just buy the DEX (or other characteristic) - and pull out a comic where the big Superhuman comments on the speed and grace of the "normal human" if you need to back it up. Or refer to the comment in the rules themselves that Heroic characters are defined by their skills and Supers by their Powers (in which I include their characteristics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I am - because it was excessively costly to achieve a result that was weaker. Had 6e retained figured characteristics, I would have hoped to see DEX priced appropriately for the value of OCV, DCV, SPD and other abilities it provides, not be the bargain basement purchase it has been in the past. Whether that meant enhancing the cost of DEX or reducing the cost of the components of DEX. And? If you make characters based on concept rather than achieving a min/max build why should that matter? No no. Don't tell me. I don't care. It was done, I still don't see the desperate need for it. But the change is made and it works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... And? If you make characters based on concept rather than achieving a min/max build why should that matter? To me, "concept" should not dictate build efficiency. A highly skilled combatant should not cost markedly more because he buys the components provided by DEX rather than buying DEX itself. Having a 10 OCV, 10 DCV, acting on 30 DEX 5 times a turn with a 15- DEX roll should cost the same (or as close as possible) whether you get there with a 30 DEX or a 10 DEX and a bunch of skills. The mechanical effect is the same, so why should one concept be penalized (rewarded) with a less (more) point-efficient build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's an interesting conversation but the discussion about Dex cost and related things isn't really ontopic for this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's an interesting conversation but the discussion about Dex cost and related things isn't really ontopic for this thread. Topic? But this is the HERO boards! You know you have to allow for at least one page of Spiral Out of Control for every Page and a half of Topic. Them's the Rules. ~Rex....besides it could be worse. It could be the folks uber familiar with MnM going back and forth about THEIR rules changes between editions, heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... To me' date=' "concept" should not dictate build efficiency. A highly skilled combatant should not cost markedly more because he buys the components provided by DEX rather than buying DEX itself. Having a 10 OCV, 10 DCV, acting on 30 DEX 5 times a turn with a 15- DEX roll should cost the same (or as close as possible) whether you get there with a 30 DEX or a 10 DEX and a bunch of skills. The mechanical effect is the same, so why should one concept be penalized (rewarded) with a less (more) point-efficient build.[/quote'] Is the mechanical effect supposed to be the same? The reward is building the character you want. Sorry, but if your point is you can't make two identical martial artists with the two different builds - well duh. They are two different builds for a reason, they are two different concepts. If you want a real efficient "Martial Artists" give him 30 Dex and 60 STR, SFX the Brick stuff as Martial arts and give him a Physical Limitation about lifting. I've seen that build. It was fun. As is the Low Dex high skill guy with lightning reflexes and skill levels. And if I'm having fun...I don't care if you think they're not comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's an interesting conversation but the discussion about Dex cost and related things isn't really ontopic for this thread. =) Sorry. I'll stop baiting Hugh now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... =) Sorry. I'll stop baiting Hugh now. But... you're not baiting me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I have played M&M 2E extensively and about 18 months ago I thought I would try Hero (mostly because it had a COM stat and split lethal and nonlethal damage more logically; 6E, of course, eliminated COM, hilariously and tragically, and the damage system and END system weren't all I was hoping for). I still prefer M&M, for a lot of reasons that I won't detail here. I love the Champions Universe (despite coming to it for the first time in the fall of 2009) and own a ton of Champions books (5E and now 6E), but I'm not sure the system is as accessible as M&M. 3E M&M is a step backwards, in my opinion, and solves none of the flaws of 2E, while stripping away some detail and granularity for reasons I can't quite fathom. The DC heroes and villains builds are also very, very sloppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... 3E M&M is a step backwards' date=' in my opinion, and solves none of the flaws of 2E, while stripping away some detail and granularity for reasons I can't quite fathom.[/quote'] Do you have any examples? I still haven't read most of 3e and almost none of 2e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... 3E M&M is a step backwards' date=' in my opinion, and solves none of the flaws of 2E, while stripping away some detail and granularity for reasons I can't quite fathom. The DC heroes and villains builds are also very, very sloppy.[/quote'] 3rd edition is less detailed than 2ed? How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... 3rd edition is less detailed than 2ed? How so? I'm not a 3E expert and there are posts and posts on this over at the M&M forum, but my problems were: 1. Powers have been further simplified, reducing pretty much all powers to flavor text coupled with a few effects. The affliction effect, for example, has replaced a lot of damage powers. This is movement toward the Hero System, which might please many people here, but I found it made the system less appealing. If I wanted a toolkit for making powers, why wouldn't I just use Hero to begin with? 2. Ability scores have become more "silver age", allowing for less granularity at the bottom. This is partly because of the elimination of the base 10 (STR might be 1 for example, instead of 11). The system also moved further away from a base D20 system in very superficial (almost cosmetic ways). This isn't likely to bother Hero gamers, but changing all the names of abilities and making it more foreign to people coming to it from other D20 games seems nonsensical to me. One of the major appeals to M&M was always that you could talk DnD players into trying it because it looked like they were playing the same system, just in tights. As I said, other people could go into more detail on things that are wrong with it (beyond just the staggering amount of errata that was required). Those two changes, plus the extremely poor DC character constructions, ensured that I wouldn't be using my DCA book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Lessee ... 18 DEX costs 24, 26 DEX costs 48. Difference, 24. So, 18 DEX with 5 Levels in HTH or Ranged combat, whichever the character specializes in. OCV 11 when he needs it, DCV 11 when he needs it, compared to a static 9. Can average a difference of 1 or 2, one way or the other, if he's not sure where he wants to go. OR ... Plus, the ability to deal +15 damage on his Normal attacks if he doesn't need OCV or DCV, or +2 Body on his Killing attacks with a spare +1 OCV or DCV. I think that kind of versatility is worth the expenditure. Absolutely and more on target for many character concepts. Can't stand the separation myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I found this review informative and since it seemed relevant to the discussion I thought I would share it here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... A bit more detailed video. it seems very similar to Hero/Champions particularly as far as Powers go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PamelaIsley Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's not that similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's not that similar. I mean as far as how they are constructed. You have a basic Effect and you can customize it with modifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I've had the chance to look through the DC Adventures corebook a little now. It seems like a fairly solid system at first glance but I see where the "Hero System" feel comes in. There is less granularity than in HS but not so much the system feel constrictive right off the bat. I can see why allot of gamers would prefer this level of detail but I think it might grate on me after awhile. I'd have to try a game to see. It has "pay as you go" style Complications which is a big selling point these days. And as I understand the "Toughness Save" damage mechanic is considered a major feature. Feels too flukey and binary for me, but again I'd have to play and see how it works in play. I've grown very used to various damage conditions that are possible in Hero System. Still it might be worth trying. As I understand, the product was somewhat rushed and didn't get adequate playtesting. There's been some erratta released (and incorporated in a later release, the M and M 3rd Edition book)? I suspect there maybe a 4th edition in the relatively near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Two things about the videos: first is that really how you pronounce Ronin? and How can the second guy consider himself knowledgeable about DC roleplaying games when he leaves out The DC Universe RPG from WEG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Two things about the videos: first is that really how you pronounce Ronin? I was suprised but apparently that is how "ronin" is correctly pronouced. It's on a couple of lists of frequently mangled Japanese words. Learn something new everyday I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Some systems have lost their granularity (aka, become dumbed down) over time. I dislike bringing this up (because it's a beat-the-dead-horse argument that can often be wrong), but, over the last decade, it was partly due to wanting to get sales from the first MMORPG gamers and, also, video gamers in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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