phoenix240 Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 How did Mutants and Masterminds affect Champions' fandom? Champions catches allot of flack on sites like rpg.net and if you base an evaluation from them you'd get the impression that players fled the system in droves (but OTOH, almost every supers game that come out over the last decade has allegedly had the same effect but Champions is still here, so go fig). I saw some pretty heated threads, flame wars basically, back and fourth between the fandoms but stayed out of them. Does anyone play both games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I've never played it. I looked over the new DC Adventures game (which, as I understand it, uses something close to the M&M engine), and thought to myself ... wow, this may be more complicated than Champions. Do Not Want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Honestly, I haven't looked into M and M either. I've heard some about it and allot of people love it to death but nothing I've heard about has really piqued my interest enough to go out and buy it. Might play in a game if the chance came up though. But there was allot of talk about how it would "bury" Champions for awhile (fortunately its died down except breif eruptions or rage). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbdaury Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I like both systems- if I had the chance and the choice, I would rather play a Hero campaign but once I get to school if I get the chance to get in on an M&M game, I'm not going to say no either. There are some on these boards that also frequent the M&M boards, namely Storn, and appear to be a fan of both games. The reason it looked like Champions was going to get mauled when this game came out is because the 1st edition of M&M and Silver Age Sentinels both hit within months of each other and there were many that felt that three interesting game takes on the Superhero genre so close together might split the market and that Champs might be hard hit- personally, I own all three, along with just about every other Superhero RPG out there and think there are never enough games for the genre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I looked at it years back, and while it was interesting, I prefer Champions over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I frequent both. There are some good ideas on the site. Plus Worldmaker and Skaramine are there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... ... Do they still get along like a house on fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Monkey Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I play both games. I prefer hero for its flexibility, but I have to give "ease of use" to M&M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I play both games. I prefer hero for its flexibility' date=' but I have to give "ease of use" to M&M.[/quote'] Can I bother you to elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Monkey Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Can I bother you to elaborate? Sure. To me, Hero System is the omni-capable system. I can use it to play superheroes or fantasy or spies or science fiction or little cartoon animals or pulp or whatever. My first rules system of choice is Hero. But if I'm trying to introduce gaming to kids who've never done this sort of thing before, especially kids who don't know multiplying and dividing with fractions from Adam, I'm going to start them on something else because Hero, while a great game and the most flexible rules around, has a really steep learning curve. Once you get past that curve, you've got no problem. But as the saying goes, the problem is never getting down the hill... Which is why I started the kids (my sons and my nieces, who were between ages 8 and 13 when I sat them down and said "Let me show you a cool game...") on Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds. And now that they're familiar with the concepts, I've moved them on to Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Sure. To me, Hero System is the omni-capable system. I can use it to play superheroes or fantasy or spies or science fiction or little cartoon animals or pulp or whatever. My first rules system of choice is Hero. But if I'm trying to introduce gaming to kids who've never done this sort of thing before, especially kids who don't know multiplying and dividing with fractions from Adam, I'm going to start them on something else because Hero, while a great game and the most flexible rules around, has a really steep learning curve. Once you get past that curve, you've got no problem. But as the saying goes, the problem is never getting down the hill... Which is why I started the kids (my sons and my nieces, who were between ages 8 and 13 when I sat them down and said "Let me show you a cool game...") on Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds. And now that they're familiar with the concepts, I've moved them on to Hero. Makes sense. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... ... Do they still get along like a house on fire? Heh, I was thinking that. If they are both there together......me afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted August 14, 2011 Report Share Posted August 14, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Sure. To me, Hero System is the omni-capable system. I can use it to play superheroes or fantasy or spies or science fiction or little cartoon animals or pulp or whatever. My first rules system of choice is Hero. But if I'm trying to introduce gaming to kids who've never done this sort of thing before, especially kids who don't know multiplying and dividing with fractions from Adam, I'm going to start them on something else because Hero, while a great game and the most flexible rules around, has a really steep learning curve. Once you get past that curve, you've got no problem. But as the saying goes, the problem is never getting down the hill... Which is why I started the kids (my sons and my nieces, who were between ages 8 and 13 when I sat them down and said "Let me show you a cool game...") on Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds. And now that they're familiar with the concepts, I've moved them on to Hero. Well, HERO is perfect for me because my tastes tend to flick back and forth. So, I can play a Star Wars or Marvel Universe, or Anime or Star Trek or D&D type game without having to buy a new rulebook every blasted time my mood might change. (plus, I have an oddity of wanting to combine genres now and again just to see what happens-though I've never gotten an opportunity to actually play it out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I've never played it. I looked over the new DC Adventures game (which' date=' as I understand it, uses something close to the M&M engine), and thought to myself ... wow, this may be more complicated than Champions. Do Not Want.[/quote'] I think its almost a 3rd edition or something close to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevelon Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Sure. To me, Hero System is the omni-capable system. I can use it to play superheroes or fantasy or spies or science fiction or little cartoon animals or pulp or whatever. My first rules system of choice is Hero. But if I'm trying to introduce gaming to kids who've never done this sort of thing before, especially kids who don't know multiplying and dividing with fractions from Adam, I'm going to start them on something else because Hero, while a great game and the most flexible rules around, has a really steep learning curve. Once you get past that curve, you've got no problem. But as the saying goes, the problem is never getting down the hill... Which is why I started the kids (my sons and my nieces, who were between ages 8 and 13 when I sat them down and said "Let me show you a cool game...") on Pathfinder and Mutants and Masterminds. And now that they're familiar with the concepts, I've moved them on to Hero. I also play both, and agree with the Ape. M&M is a lot more fast and loose, easy to build characters and pick up and play. But the system inherited a lot of "quirks" from its d20 roots. There are a lot of mechanics that break down and are prone to abuse once you go to the superhero scale. And M&M lacks the little stop/warning signs in Hero. I think M&M needs a more skilled GM then Hero, but can handle lesser skilled players. On the spectrum of "rules-light" to "detailed & crunchy" it falls towards the middle; with Hero on the detailed side, and Savage Worlds on the light side. All are good systems, some better for some styles of games then others. Some of my issues with M&M might be the fact that we've been playing Pathfinder, which is at least one "edition" more advanced the Mutants and Masterminds (I'm not sure if M&M is based on 3.0 or 3.5.) Pathfinder cleaned up a lot of the skills and combat maneuvers, which makes the game play much better/faster. Overall our group still prefers Hero for anything not D&D. We do play just about everything though. One of our GMs just wrapped up a 4-color M&M arc. He might go back and run some more, but he's shelving it for a bit to run a Savage Worlds fantasy game. In his case, he needs something rules light and simple; fits his style better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Play both. Prefer HERO. Lacks the MnM Issues that irk me and is easier to Fix if I trip over something HERO I don't like. I find MnM a perfectly acceptable entry level game though. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... There are two types of people, those who like HERO and those who need to stay off my lawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Play both. Prefer HERO. Lacks the MnM Issues that irk me and is easier to Fix if I trip over something HERO I don't like. I find MnM a perfectly acceptable entry level game though. ~Rex What irked you about M and M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... (I'm not sure if M&M is based on 3.0 or 3.5.) 3.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... What irked you about M and M? Explosive Exponential Power Creep, Copy Paste-itis, Pancaking Power Builds, and simply not very much Game for your money. Not to mention some Mechanics issues associated with a roll and save format. Current Edition is better then the first two though and it's eminently playable. It's just, HERO Lite, Diet HERO, not quite HERO enough, etc etc etc .... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Explosive Exponential Power Creep, Copy Paste-itis, Pancaking Power Builds, and simply not very much Game for your money. Not to mention some Mechanics issues associated with a roll and save format. Current Edition is better then the first two though and it's eminently playable. It's just, HERO Lite, Diet HERO, not quite HERO enough, etc etc etc .... ~Rex I'm not sure what Pancaking Power builds means? And what about Power Creep? I apologize if I'm pestering you but I have a friend that's thinking of moving some (or maybe all) of his games over to Mutants and Masterminds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Tell him not to do it. Friends don't let Friends do MnM. Pancaking, is the D20 Habit of being able to Layer several feats together to get an exponential growth of effect, often in combat. It's not just power attack let's say, but starting with that, then using the NEXT feat to Rob from the new Peter to give to the New Paul, then wash rinse repeat. It's a sort of power mechanic manipulation crunchy thing that if you tie it into the foundation of OTHER things, just increases the effect exponentially. Like a Stack of Pancakes. In short, it's a very appealing Mechanic to those that liked the same set up in DnD 3.x, except now they can Power Game a build at the Super Hero level instead of just the DnD level. Power Creep is something every game suffers from, but in MnM it's built right in and it's exponential in scope (as opposed to HERO's Linear power creep which is easily controlled). Hence when the Power Level rises, the problems multiply. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a pain in the butt paperwork thing, HUGE difference between a PL 10 game and a PL 11 game as far as cause and effect goes. That kind of disparity is really visible in use and effect in the DC Adventures Stuff. Sometimes it's handy in defining things and genre differences but I build at a very detailed Level so it's exponential differences in cause and effect in relation to the environmental scale is a migraine waiting to happen. HERO's linear growth pattern is easier to deal with in the long term. If you poke around you can find piles of threads both for an against, for me it came down to this. HERO, is a Seven Course Meal at a Restaurant, Owned and Run by a master chef like Gordon Ramsay and he's serving up all the plates as well. MnM, is a plate of Buffalo Wings and a bag full of Halloween Candy chased down by a 12 pack of Jolt Cola. Now I like me some Buffalo Wings, Candy, and Jolt Cola.......but it's not HERO. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... Played the first two editions of MnM...Might get teh DCHeroes sourcebook cause of the art/conversion opportunities. I was not thrilled that in order to play a super strong character you essentially had 2 or 3 powers/types of Strength...and that lifting power is basically non factor in combat - but then I don't like the attack/save vs damage mechanic much. I prefer hit points and Armor class - even done badly (like Rifts) and vastly prefer the Stun/Body Mechanic for most of my games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... As to fandom...we did lose a few HEROphiles to MnM over the years. I used to argue with one of them here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... ...and that lifting power is basically non factor in combat . That's the first thing I've heard I liked. Lucius Alexander Palindromedaries and Palaces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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