What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

A very simple 2m, Pos. Shift, UAA teleport can be very devastating to a game. It basically says that all enemies will be prone for the rest of combat once the T. Porter lands the first hit. He can teleport them into the exact same spot they stand (or slightly adjusted) but face down n' prone. In other words, it is the 'set up' of a "set them up and knock em down" combo. One that would be hard to justifiably counter with any normal shlub villain.

 

La Rose.

 

He can still attack reasonably unimpaired, however, assuming he has a ranged attack. If he doesn't, he's primarily a melee fighter (brick, speedster, martial artist), which means he can probably stand up and perform some kind of Move-Through, Move-By, Passing Strike or the like. If he can't do any of those, well, congratulations, you're that guy's big tactical deficiency. Enjoy it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

What was wrong with the third option' date=' 'no'?[/quote']

 

Why? Enforce the rules and you don't need to say No nearly as often.

 

Generally telporting him to the other side of a wall/ceiling/floor is one of the most problematic uses and falls under "not save teleport" most of the times. When you can teleport someone 3-5 floors up' date=' he could be disabeled for multiple turns (dependign on tunneling speed or casual/full attack STR or just where the stairs are. And that still uses Endurance).[/quote']

 

Viewed another way, you just gave him a great opportunity to set an ambush, take hostages on that other floor, call in for backup or just escape.

 

And let's not forget the ability to transport him to the ohter side of a windows - the side where there is no floor and he drops do his (possible)death and certainly a long way to climb up again. Or the other side of an enemy B' date=' so the Attack hits B instead.[/quote']

 

Knockback is pretty effective at moving someone to the other side of a window, and the initial attack also inflicts damage. You can certainly move him to the other side of Enemy B, but that doesn't mean he attacxks enemy B, it means he considers his new location before attacking.

 

I agree with escafarc and CC - this is a Teleportation power, not Telekinesis.

[薔薇語]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

He can still attack reasonably unimpaired' date=' however, assuming he has a ranged attack. If he doesn't, he's primarily a melee fighter (brick, speedster, martial artist), which means he can probably stand up and perform some kind of Move-Through, Move-By, Passing Strike or the like. If he can't do any of those, well, congratulations, you're that guy's big tactical deficiency. Enjoy it. [/quote']

 

I think you seem to be ignoring a whole suite of things. First, he can't eve get up until it is his turn again. Until then, he is at best at half DCV. Spice that with a Teleporter with a high enough SPD, he can prevent the target from ever doing very much. Does he spend half a turn getting up and attacking OR fleeing from the Tporter who will knock him prone again, Or try and go all out while suffering all the minuses from being on the ground? None are good options to face. Add in some BIG punches that have a hard time hitting (for balance reasons), some Haymakers n' move bys/through, etc., and you get a squishy villain pretty quick.

 

La Rose.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I think you seem to be ignoring a whole suite of things. First' date=' he can't eve get up until it is his turn again. Until then, he is at best at half DCV.[/quote']

 

Same as if he were Flashed. Better than if he were Entangled.

 

Spice that with a Teleporter with a high enough SPD, he can prevent the target from ever doing very much. Does he spend half a turn getting up and attacking OR fleeing from the Tporter who will knock him prone again, Or try and go all out while suffering all the minuses from being on the ground? None are good options to face.

 

Yes, it's possible to pin down one character fairly often. So what? "I hold my phase until he breaks out of my Entangle, then Entangle him again." "He wriggled out of my grab? Grab him again." "He can see again? Re-Flash." "He stood up? Martial Throw!" It's hardly unique to this power construct.

 

Add in some BIG punches that have a hard time hitting (for balance reasons), some Haymakers n' move bys/through, etc., and you get a squishy villain pretty quick.

 

La Rose.

 

So, teamwork bad. Got it.

 

Oh, and

[phoenix240]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

What about Breakfall and Acrobatics?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

What about Breakfall and Acrobatics?

 

Relative to Teleport UAA? Helps with the aport into mid-air aspect, as far as not being rendered prone when you land (maybe).

[薔薇語]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Same as if he were Flashed. Better than if he were Entangled.

 

 

 

Yes, it's possible to pin down one character fairly often. So what? "I hold my phase until he breaks out of my Entangle, then Entangle him again." "He wriggled out of my grab? Grab him again." "He can see again? Re-Flash." "He stood up? Martial Throw!" It's hardly unique to this power construct.

 

 

 

So, teamwork bad. Got it.

 

Oh, and

 

 

Most of those have obvious or easy counters and to become quite effective, require quite a bit of cost. The teleport I talked about costs about 14 active points. A 14 active pt flash isn't going to do very much - as it will maybe disable one sense (sight being the only one that really matters since we are talking about going prone) for a number of segments - T.port does so until their next phase. So, it is progressively harsher on slower opponents than flash is (flashing being so against opponents who are faster - especially those who are relative to the t-porter). Likewise, I think that finding a flash SpF/X that is as effectively without being so easily negated (I close my eyes...), is not as likely. Entangles, lest ones goes the rather expensive route can be broken out of fairly easily by any villain with a good str. And for those with Grong lvl str, likely never have effect. The T.port works equally well on norms as it does on Grond. Equally well on Grond as it does Dr. Fate. That is rather versatile - especially for 14 act. pts...

 

For neutralizing an opponent, I'd take the Teleport concept over anything any day of the weak. Can't beat its versatility, and cost to effect ratio.

 

Oh, and .

 

La Rose.

[薔薇語]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Oh, and lets not forget the ever popular "I teleport them into the inescapable box" Trick.

 

La Rose.

[RexMundi]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Run into that more with Extra-dimensional Movement, heh....that's another bag of worms though.

 

~Rex

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Or try and go all out while suffering all the minuses from being on the ground? None are good options to face.

 

Well, if the target is prone, he's half DCV. Only penalties to OCV are based on optional Groundfighting rules, and if he's a Ranged attacker, even those are iffy. Me, I'd stay down, dedicate my next few phases to blasting the teleporter unconscious, and to heck with my DCV in the interim.

 

If a HtH fighter, stand and Dodge, putting any possible levels into DCV. The teleporter still has to beat the target's DCV, after all. And if the target is a martial artist, frankly, if he's any good he should be able to crank his DCV up high enough for long enough to stay on his feet and close on Mr. Teleporter before starting on the smackdown. And if the teleporter is busy keeping the martial artist from getting close enough to hit him... well, then the teleporter's neutralized too, isn't he?

[RexMundi]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

My Martial Artists are as Dangerous Prone as they are on their feet. Not to mention, things like Environmental Movement stack well with a certain skill base orientated into turning said UAO Teleporter into a spokes person for Surgical Pins, Plates, and splints.

 

~Rex

[薔薇語]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Well, if the target is prone, he's half DCV. Only penalties to OCV are based on optional Groundfighting rules, and if he's a Ranged attacker, even those are iffy. Me, I'd stay down, dedicate my next few phases to blasting the teleporter unconscious, and to heck with my DCV in the interim.

 

If a HtH fighter, stand and Dodge, putting any possible levels into DCV. The teleporter still has to beat the target's DCV, after all. And if the target is a martial artist, frankly, if he's any good he should be able to crank his DCV up high enough for long enough to stay on his feet and close on Mr. Teleporter before starting on the smackdown. And if the teleporter is busy keeping the martial artist from getting close enough to hit him... well, then the teleporter's neutralized too, isn't he?

 

Indeed, one enemy well set up could easily keep away from the Teleporter. That says nothing for the rest of the team. And lets not forget, that power only costs 14 active points (so, really 1 pt in a MP). That means he has a LOT of diversity still left to him. Maybe even enough to tangle with said MA.

 

La Rose.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Same as if he were Flashed. Better than if he were Entangled.

 

Agreed.

 

Yes' date=' it's possible to pin down one character fairly often. So what? "I hold my phase until he breaks out of my Entangle, then Entangle him again." "He wriggled out of my grab? Grab him again." "He can see again? Re-Flash." "He stood up? Martial Throw!" It's hardly unique to this power construct.[/quote']

 

And, in all cases, neutralizes the attacker to much the same extent as the defender. Assuming equal SPD, if he uses all his actions to Tport me prone, and I use all mine to stand back up, the best he can hope for is a stalemate. If I Blast him from prone (and maybe Knock him prone with Knockback...), use Acrobatics (or is it Breakfall) to stand as a 0 phase action, or he misses, I now have the advantage. Now, can he knock one character prone after which all the others blast him at half DCV? Sure - but now none of them have engaged any of that character's teammates, so they have a phase to use freely - maybe all attacking the Teleporter, or whichever other opponent is perceived as the biggest threat. Now we're each down one teammate. Doesn't seem like the Teleporter's team got this huge perceived advantage,

 

Most of those have obvious or easy counters and to become quite effective' date=' require quite a bit of cost. The teleport I talked about costs about 14 active points. A 14 active pt flash isn't going to do very much - as it will maybe disable one sense (sight being the only one that really matters since we are talking about going prone) for a number of segments - T.port does so until their next phase.[/quote']

 

15 AP of Sight Flash (as close as we will get) blinds the target for 3 phases on average. Assuming the "defense" for UAA TPort is as common as a bit of sight flash defense/a suitable enhanced sense (which seems a "reasonably common defense" to me), they will both fail as often. In a game with 4+ SPD average, the 3 segments of flash will last as long, or longer, as "until the target's next phase". Seems pretty comparable to me - except the blind guy is penalized on both OCV and DCV.

 

Likewise' date=' I think that finding a flash SpF/X that is as effectively without being so easily negated (I close my eyes...), is not as likely. [/quote']

 

Sounds to me like you are simply allowing Flash to be readily neutralized. Bright lights can be perceived through eyelids. Tear gas is still functional. And, if you close your eyes, you are blind. So once you start using that tactic, I'll gesture at you. Do you close your eyes? Am I using Flash, or will I make a three shot Multiple Attack with my Blast in the hopes you WILL close your eyes, voluntarily halving your DCV for me?

 

Entangles' date=' lest ones goes the rather expensive route can be broken out of fairly easily by any villain with a good str. And for those with Grong lvl str, likely never have effect. The T.port works equally well on norms as it does on Grond. Equally well on Grond as it does Dr. Fate. That is rather versatile - especially for 14 act. pts...[/quote']

 

Entangle is a more expensive option, but can take a number of characters out for extended periods. OAF reliant characters, agents, etc. have a tough time getting out of entangles. But a 14 AP entangle won't do much, I agree. As for Dr. Fate - he may well have that "reasonably common defense" against your T Port vs Others.

 

Well' date=' if the target is prone, he's half DCV. Only penalties to OCV are based on optional Groundfighting rules, and if he's a Ranged attacker, even those are iffy. Me, I'd stay down, dedicate my next few phases to blasting the teleporter unconscious, and to heck with my DCV in the interim.[/quote']

 

Yup. Or I'll use a half phase to stand up (any OCV penalties negated), Blast the teleporter and wait - now he has to let me stay standing or use his next phase making me prone again. Let's assume I keep standing and blasting, and he keeps knocking me prone for no damage. Which of us will be knocked out first?

 

If a HtH fighter' date=' stand and Dodge, putting any possible levels into DCV. The teleporter still has to beat the target's DCV, after all.[/quote']

 

A Move Through could be fun. You can always Abort to Dodge later, and even if the Move Through missed, you've closed the range gap.

 

And if the target is a martial artist' date=' frankly, if he's any good he should be able to crank his DCV up high enough for long enough to stay on his feet and close on Mr. Teleporter before starting on the smackdown. And if the teleporter is busy keeping the martial artist from getting close enough to hit him... well, then the teleporter's neutralized too, isn't he? [/quote']

 

And most Martial Artists have those skills which allow him to stand as a zero phase action.

 

Final note: with the 14 AP spent on that cheesy 1 meter T Port with position shift, UAA at range, one of our characters can probably buy 1 meter Flight (or T Port), Position Shift, Trigger "when not standing", auto reset and stand up automatically. He might even be able to make it UBO so the whole team can benefit from it at once.

 

In addition to neutralizing the Teleporter, we're never prone after a throw, Dive for Cover or Knockback Sweet!

[Escafarc]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

A very simple 2m, Pos. Shift, UAA teleport can be very devastating to a game. It basically says that all enemies will be prone for the rest of combat once the T. Porter lands the first hit. He can teleport them into the exact same spot they stand (or slightly adjusted) but face down n' prone. In other words, it is the 'set up' of a "set them up and knock em down" combo. One that would be hard to justifiably counter with any normal shlub villain.

 

La Rose.

Add Continuous, Area of Effect and Gate. Open the "gate" underneath the target teleport them 2m straight up 6 segments later turn it off and wham!

[Escafarc]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

... The T.port works equally well on norms as it does on Grond. Equally well on Grond as it does Dr. Fate. That is rather versatile - especially for 14 act. pts....

I would require the Increase Mass Modifier to effect Grond. Not that it would increase the cost that much but just to maintain consistency within the campaign.

[Christopher]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I'll just say that I wouldn't allow TK to be used in place of TPort for this in my game' date=' I believe in the KISS principle.[/quote']

TK is the power to move things (and enemys) agaisnt their will on Range.

TK, UAA is a movement Power used as UAA. Wich is bad in the first place. It is listed as one of the most likely abusive builds. It has a miserable scaling and All-or Nothing defenses.

My understanding of KISS is to use the tool with the right effect, not the one whose name fit's the SFX best.

 

That' date=' and the TK simply doesn't do what the power is supposed to do.[/quote']

What is the power supposed to do?

Totally ignoring anything that makes Moving targets on Range balanced and scaled? No TK, can't do that.

Moving targets agaisnt heir will? No Problem.

Doign this on range? No Problem.

Moving through walls/not letting him stuck in walls/only to places the attacker can see (and anything else Teleport makes up for you): see below.

 

So let's make a power, I call it MTTDAMITWLIBSIAWOO (make the target Desolid and move it without letting it be stuck in a wall or object):

40 TK-STR, Works Like Teleport +0; 60 Base/Active/Real Cost

 

Works like Teleport:

Must affect whole object

Target does not passes through intervening space

Can only be used for and only last for one shove/throw/drag maneuver, but grants one of those for free (like grab does)

Cannot change facing of target (i.e. may not throw someone to the feet, only change his position).

Can do anything else teleport could do but I forgot.

Can't do anything else teleport could do, but i forgot.

The values is obviously open to debate.

[Martin2]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

TK is the power to move things (and enemys) agaisnt their will on Range.

TK, UAA is a movement Power used as UAA. Wich is bad in the first place. It is listed as one of the most likely abusive builds. It has a miserable scaling and All-or Nothing defenses.

My understanding of KISS is to use the tool with the right effect, not the one whose name fit's the SFX best.

 

I agree with Christopher. My Teleporter also wants to disarm people with Foci weapons. Currently I have a UAA teleport attack. Which I "bodged" to the cost of a grab with "teleport strength" of10 strength grab roll and a bonus of +2. So has a good chance of teleporting a gun out of a mook but not out of the hands of a strong villain.

 

I am thinking of making it a telekenetic str based only for grabbing things as it should be cheaper.

[Escafarc]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I agree with Christopher. My Teleporter also wants to disarm people with Foci weapons. Currently I have a UAA teleport attack. Which I "bodged" to the cost of a grab with "teleport strength" of10 strength grab roll and a bonus of +2. So has a good chance of teleporting a gun out of a mook but not out of the hands of a strong villain.

 

I am thinking of making it a telekenetic str based only for grabbing things as it should be cheaper.

 

I would use Stretching with Does Not Cross Intervening Space.

[Martin2]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I would use Stretching with Does Not Cross Intervening Space.

 

See another non teleporting power to simulate teleport .

 

It would get complicated as I would have to link in tempory strength as well as the character is not strong.

[Escafarc]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

See another non teleporting power to simulate teleport .

 

It would get complicated as I would have to link in tempory strength as well as the character is not strong.

I never said you can't use other powers I just wouldn't use TK in place of Teleport UaA. And Linking STR to Teleport isn't complicated it's what Link is there for.

[Christopher]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I would use Stretching with Does Not Cross Intervening Space.

Activates Damage Shields. Streching is using HTH-Attacks with greater Reach (normally 1m; the example of a Ki Punch is really iritating and totally out of place; ignore it)

 

The ability to use it for disarms was one reason I used TK.

As is the fact that it scales better (you can move a 5 kg thing X Meters, but a 5ton thing not as far) instead of going NND. It also uses all the existing rules and countermeasures vs. unwated movement (being Heavy, having STR), instead of one and some wierds.

That you can move them throug walls is one problem (and my main problem), but then again it was not my idea or requirement in the first place. I think it is one of the thigns that should be left out/blocked by a limitation in either variant.

[phoenix240]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I don't think TK does the job very well. The target physically crosses the intervening space by default which can lead to all manner of things you'd have either handwave or put together a very kludgy build to compensate for. Teleport UAA is a very potent effect though and we've decided to ban it from our games. It would probably work in others but seems like it would be a little too effective for the points in ours (Flight is rare, power defense is practically non existent as it teleport sfx if not the power, lack of ranged attackers, etc).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

I don't think TK does the job very well. The target physically crosses the intervening space by default which can lead to all manner of things you'd have either handwave or put together a very kludgy build to compensate for. Teleport UAA is a very potent effect though and we've decided to ban it from our games. It would probably work in others but seems like it would be a little too effective for the points in ours (Flight is rare' date=' power defense is practically non existent as it teleport sfx if not the power, lack of ranged attackers, etc).[/quote']

 

I usually use an ED Forcefield/Force Wall as the defense for Teleport UAA rather than Power Defense (as well as teleport/dimensional powers).

[Escafarc]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

Activates Damage Shields. Streching is using HTH-Attacks with greater Reach (normally 1m; the example of a Ki Punch is really iritating and totally out of place; ignore it)

 

The ability to use it for disarms was one reason I used TK.

As is the fact that it scales better (you can move a 5 kg thing X Meters, but a 5ton thing not as far) instead of going NND. It also uses all the existing rules and countermeasures vs. unwated movement (being Heavy, having STR), instead of one and some wierds.

That you can move them throug walls is one problem (and my main problem), but then again it was not my idea or requirement in the first place. I think it is one of the thigns that should be left out/blocked by a limitation in either variant.

 

You could add Indirect to by-pass damage shields.

 

EDIT:Since in the past 30yrs in my games there has been only one character(ironically a teleport based character) either PC or NPC with a damage shield that I wouldn't require it and let Does Not Cross Intervening Space cover it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What have your experiences been with a Teleportation as an attack?

 

You could add Indirect to by-pass damage shields.

 

Pretty sure that doesn't work. Force Walls/Barriers, yeah, but I don't think Indirect lets you bypass damage shields.