Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

[Duane From RI]

Is it me or is the calcualtions in the advanced players guide regarding throwing things into orbit all wrong?

Let's take 70 STR. 70 STR can lift 400 tons (400,000 kg) barely off the ground.

SO

The Work done is 400,000 * 9.8 * 0.1 (10 cm) = 392,000 joules

If one were to impart that energy to a 357kg mass, the resultant velocity would be a mere 47 m/s. This works out to be 224 meters down range and a max height of 56 meters.

It's been two decades since I've taken any physics classes but the equations in wikipedia are pretty good at refreshing my memory. The key consideration here is potential energy and kinetic energy. A joule is a joule.

The whole table doesn't make sense to me. If I can lift a 400,000 kg mass 0.1 meter off the ground, the same energy throwing a 357 kg mass straight up means the 357kg mass is only going to go 112 meters into the air. mh = mh.

What am I doing wrong????

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Bringing reality into the world of comic book physics.

[dmjalund]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

you are also limited by how fast the character can actually move his arm

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

you are also limited by how fast the character can actually move his arm

Excellent point!!!!

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Regardless of whether the "Realistic" Throwing Tables in APG are correct - there is a quite memorable scene from the Hulk comics where Hulk jumps into low orbit to get away from everyone hating on him. He couldn't breath so he went ahead and came back to Earth. Numerous physics problem with the scene - but it was so comical and so "Hulk" that it still tickles my fancy.

[Escafarc]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

That was the sound of Cat-Girls crying in fear.

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Is it me or is the calcualtions in the advanced players guide regarding throwing things into orbit all wrong?

Let's take 70 STR. 70 STR can lift 400 tons (400,000 kg) barely off the ground.

SO

The Work done is 400,000 * 9.8 * 0.1 (10 cm) = 392,000 joules

If one were to impart that energy to a 357kg mass, the resultant velocity would be a mere 47 m/s. This works out to be 224 meters down range and a max height of 56 meters.

It's been two decades since I've taken any physics classes but the equations in wikipedia are pretty good at refreshing my memory. The key consideration here is potential energy and kinetic energy. A joule is a joule.

The whole table doesn't make sense to me. If I can lift a 400,000 kg mass 0.1 meter off the ground, the same energy throwing a 357 kg mass straight up means the 357kg mass is only going to go 112 meters into the air. mh = mh.

What am I doing wrong????

There is this thing called "Escape Volcity"

In physics' date=' escape velocity is the speed at which the kinetic energy plus the gravitational potential energy of an object is zero [nb 1']. It is the speed needed to "break free" from a gravitational field without further propulsion.

Ecape volicty of earth is given as:

11.186 km/s

 

The trick is that you only can impart energy once and then hope that it was enough so that gravity cannot stop the object again (because once it stops, it starts acelerating back towards earth).

 

I think you calculation of the joules might be wrong: Lifting weight says: "that’s as much as he can barely get off the ground and stagger with for a step or two..". Wich means they can lift it at least high enough to stand upright/have their legs free for moving (about 1-1,5 meters? not sure).

[Susano]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Here's a question -- how strong do you need to be to be able hit a baseball into orbit with a bat?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

In an episode of the original X-Men animated series, Juggernaut tossed the Gem of Cyttorak into space...while on Earth.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Just to be nitpicky, any orbit you toss things into from the ground is going to be an orbit that intersects the surface of the earth at two points.

 

Also, regarding lifting strength vs. throwing: a forklift can lift a few tons eight feet off the ground and drive around with it, no problem, but it can't throw anything any distance at all because the forks move too slowly. I humbly suggest that there's more to the throwing equation than the work done in lifting something.

 

you are also limited by how fast the character can actually move his arm

 

Yep. I can't throw a BB fast enough to do any damage, just because I can't move my arm that fast.

 

This actually raises an interesting question: given that F = ma, and therefore a = F/m, would a super-strong character, whose arm has the same mass, but whose muscles create more force, be capable of moving her arms faster than a normal human? Or, is there some limit to how fast the muscles can contract?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

After much algebra I have determined that the tables in APG are simply wrong. The correct formula for distance thrown should be (Mass Liftable / Mass Thrown) X 2 at the most.

[Christopher]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

This actually raises an interesting question: given that F = ma' date=' and therefore a = F/m, would a super-strong character, whose arm has the same mass, but whose muscles create more force, be capable of moving her arms faster than a normal human? Or, is there some limit to how fast the muscles can contract?[/quote']

Comicbok + Rules of Physics = ??? I think such minor problems as the "speed the arm moves" are completely ignored for this.

 

Regarding the potential STR used: There is the optional Rule to only allow this Stunt as Long Distance Throw (basically a haymakered throw), so perhaps it's asumed the character can actually muster his normal STR + 20 for the purpose of determining the range/throwing speed?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

The table seems to be built around the assumption that the work being done in lifting one's maximum capacity is being done through a meter, not a tenth of a meter. Note, as Christopher pointed out, that the lifting table doesn't actually say that you barely lift the weight off the ground.

 

Gravity also appears to have been rounded up to 10m/s^2.

 

So, for 70 str, the work done is 400,000kg * 10 m/s^2 * 1m = 4,000,000 joules, which equals 4,000,000 Newtons of force through one meter, which was then plugged into F = ma.

 

For escape velocity, it looks like the value of 11.2 km/s was used and the table assumes a 1 second application of force. So, 4,000,000 Newtons = mass * 11,200 m/s^2.

 

So mass = 357.14 kg.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

In an episode of the original X-Men animated series' date=' Juggernaut tossed the Gem of Cyttorak into space...[i']while on Earth[/i].

He did that in the book, also. Black Tom ended up with half of Jugg's powers and neither one liked it much.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

OK: the Work done to lift a 400,000kg a distance of 1m = 4,000,000 joules

If I do 4,000,000 joules of work on a 357kg mass I get a velocity of 149.69 m/s. The equation I'm working from is W = (1/2) m (v_final^2 - v_initial^2) where v_initial=0

Anyways - please check me on this: If I accelerate any mass 11,200 m/s^2 for 1 sec the displacement is 5,600 meters. But in the case of throwing an object we are only displacing the object 1 meter before acceleration ends.

Something just isnt looking right to me. If escape velocity is 11,200 m/s then the kinetic energy required for a 357kg mass at that velocity is 22,391,040,000 joules. Am I wrong about this?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Ok I figured out the displacement thing. You would need to displace 5,600 meters by swinging the mass around and around for 1 second. Now let's look at the work done:

W = Fd, F=ma sure. But now d = 6,600 meters. Thus work is 22,400,000,000 joules.

If you accelerate a mass at 11,200 m/s^2 and you want it to reach a velocity of 11,200 m/s then it must take 1 second and you must displace 5,600 meters.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

By the time you start putting that much effort into it, it stops being a game.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

By the time you start putting that much effort into it' date=' it stops being a game.[/quote']

 

While I don't enjoy complicated (from my point of view, of course) mathematics in my games, I don't deny that some do have fun integrating them into their games. Heck, some just prefer to have a solid foundation for effects...even if the numbers themselves don't make an actual appearance all that often.

[Greywind]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Comic book realities thrive on rubber science.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

Comic book realities thrive on rubber science.

 

In general, I agree. Some are more "realistic" than others, however.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

People keep talking about comic book rubber science. Many seem to completely dismiss the OP with such statements. Besides being rather rude to the OP does anyone else find this approach strange considering we're discussing the optional "Realistic Throwing Table"?

 

EDIT: Also, to those making comments about this much math being "too much work" or "not fun", you realize that this math would be used to make a table and the table would be used in game, right? No one anywhere is suggesting doing this math in-game, halting mid-combat to figure out how far you can throw something.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

People keep talking about comic book rubber science. Many seem to completely dismiss the OP with such statements. Besides being rather rude to the OP does anyone else find this approach strange considering we're discussing the optional "Realistic Throwing Table"?

 

EDIT: Also, to those making comments about this much math being "too much work" or "not fun", you realize that this math would be used to make a table and the table would be used in game, right? No one anywhere is suggesting doing this math in-game, halting mid-combat to figure out how far you can throw something.

 

This is a problem i've seen on every board that deals with Pencil & Paper Roleplaying Games. Someone always want to avoid answering the topic's main question, while others want to tell the topic creator the "right" way to play.

 

As well intentioned as some posters may be, what eventually happens is that their suggestions devolve into light bullying.

 

Aaaand, i'm contributing to a derailment, so i'll bow out until I have something of real substance to contribute.

[phoenix240]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

In general' date=' I agree. Some are more "realistic" than others, however.[/quote']

 

I agree and this is about a game too not really a "comic book". A game that attempts to emulate some aspects of comics but can't do so for some and different players might prefer not to emulate others. Its less about "realism" I think and more about a sense of versimilllitude, what feels right and doesn't jar their sensibilities. That's going to be different for different people. Just because the throwing distances don't bother me, others might be differ and I can't begrudge them that. People enjoy different aspects and styles in their comics.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

To the OP. A couple of possibilities to your question. 1) Steve (or whoever did the math) may have rounded more during the calculations which (I assume) could make a big difference when division and multiplication are involved. 2) The standard throwing table accounts for standing throws and running throws (not sure if those are the exact terms). Perhaps your calculations would fit the "standing throw" and an arbitrary multiplier was used to come up with the running throw and since the chart deals with max distance that is the figure used. 3) Is it possible that some other measurement was used to determine the distance? I'm not skilled enough with physics or math to know. 4) One of the reasons for the "realistic throwing table" was complaints that the standard "throwing table" short changed high STRength characters on how far they could throw. Perhaps they simple erred in the other direction.

Not sure if any of that is helpful, but there you go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Chucking things into orbit - Advanced Player's Guide

 

The Hero Game rules sometimes get accused of looking like textbooks. I think the object of the rules is to capture source material physics, not real world physics. If the APG rules don't match physics, is that really a big deal in gameplay? Did we also want to factor in air resistance?

 

To me, the big question is whether this will ultimately make for a better game. We have the standard throwing chart, and this new one. If a third option makes your game better, then go for it.