Damage Negation!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Its counter-intuitive and work-intensive mechanics like these that make me avoid power-centered games like the plague in the first place.

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I'd far rather have to adjudicate a balance issue at design time than deal with recalculating for every attack at run-time.

 

I simply won't be using Damage Negation. Not because of balance issues, but because of work issues.

 

I'm not supposed to work for the game - the game is supposed to work for me.

 

The system for Damage Negation is the same as Adding DC (with a Haymaker or CSL, for example). Both are examples where you add damage and can't really pre-calculate it (as you can do with STR adding to HA/KA).

 

You need to figure out how DC's translate to dies on the fly (or where wise enough to write that down in advance). The rest is just looking into the tables in the book.

 

Vondy, how do you deal with added damage to advantaged attacks (haymakers, CSL's, martial maneuvers)? It seems to me that, if damage added to advantaged attack is 1d6 per DC, rather than pro rated, this would be a benefit to advantaged attacks that might offset the drawback of being reduced faster by DN, leveling the field in a different manner.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

If it is a problem doing the calculations or looking up a table to work out how much you reduce an advantaged attack by, get players to record on their character sheet when 5 points of power is worth in terms of DC.

 

For a 'straight' Blast, 5 points = 1DC

With a +1/4 advantage, 5 points = 0.8DC (4/5 DC)

With a +1/2 advantage, 5 points = 0.667DC (2/3 DC)

With a +3/4 advantage, 5 points = 0.57 DC (4/7 DC. OK, that one is a little awkward)

With a +1 advantage, 5 points = 0.5DC (1/2 DC)

 

So if you have a 9d6 attack that has a relevant +1/4 advantage hitting 5 dice of DN, you reduce it by (5x0.8), or 4 dice, leaving a 5d6 attack with a +1/4 advantage.

 

Yes that involves some maths, but nothing (with the exception of some awkward ones like +3/4) that my 11 year old couldn't do in his head before you picked up a calculator.

 

If you are mathematically reluctant, and it comes up a lot, i.e. if one of the players has the power, make a table. I've done one for you below. The top row is the amount of advantage on the attack, the left column is the number of levels of DN you have and the result is the number of dice you take off the attack. Simples.

 

If it is REALLY a problem, either do not bother with the calculation (which will make DN a lot more powerful against advantaged attacks) or do not use DN. I mean, it is not compulsary and it does not do anything you can not do with other defences (pretty much) anyway.

 

 

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Can I also say, if this table actually does display correctly, I am massively impressed by the way this website has been developed! Well, even if it doesn't, but even more so if it does!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

I am officially massively impressed! That was a straight cut and paste from an Excel spreadsheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

As to how you can keep the figures hidden from the players, well, this sounds fiddly, but should work: damage dice should be in different colours:

 

1 Black

2 White

4 Yellow

8 Blue

16 Red (if you roll a LOT of damage)

 

This is basically binary, so 7d6 would be 1 black, 2 white and 4 yellow dice. Always pick up the damage dice in that order: black, then white, then yellow then blue etc., until you have the number you need to roll.

 

If the target has 1 point of DN, the GM ignores the black die. If the target has 2 points, the GM ignores the white dice. If the target has 3, ignore black and white, 4 ignore yellow, 5, ignore yellow and black, and 6 ignore yellow and white.

 

The players are always rolling the same dice so they will never know what you are ignoring and what you are not, and the above combination of dice will allow you to roll up to 33d6 damage and take into account any amount of DN, without giving anything away (if you don't go with 16 red dice you can roll up to 15d6).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

If it is REALLY a problem...do not use DN. I mean' date=' it is not compulsary and it does not do anything you can not do with other defences (pretty much) anyway.[/quote']

 

Many GM's also indicate they do not allow VPP's to players who cannot run them quickly and efficiently in combat (often restricting them to experienced Hero players, or players very proficient with building powers). DN could certainly be restricted to players who can cope with the math issues.

 

That becomes more of a concern if it is the GM who has the math issues, but that may mean just not using DN in that person's games. As well, the GM slowing down is a more significant issue, as players have time between many others' actions where the GM always needs to be involved. But the GM also knows what's coming up. When I GM, I don't generally make up powers on the fly for VPP users - I use pre-defined powers written up in advance. I'd likely also determine the remaining dice from my players' attacks if an upcoming villain has DN, or pre-determine how many dice the opposition will roll if I've allowed a PC to have DN (converting in play time to preparation time, though admittedly not reducing the complexity).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Many GM's also indicate they do not allow VPP's to players who cannot run them quickly and efficiently in combat (often restricting them to experienced Hero players, or players very proficient with building powers). DN could certainly be restricted to players who can cope with the math issues.

 

That becomes more of a concern if it is the GM who has the math issues, but that may mean just not using DN in that person's games. As well, the GM slowing down is a more significant issue, as players have time between many others' actions where the GM always needs to be involved. But the GM also knows what's coming up. When I GM, I don't generally make up powers on the fly for VPP users - I use pre-defined powers written up in advance. I'd likely also determine the remaining dice from my players' attacks if an upcoming villain has DN, or pre-determine how many dice the opposition will roll if I've allowed a PC to have DN (converting in play time to preparation time, though admittedly not reducing the complexity).

 

 

Absolutely. I love getting into the nitty gritty of the system in discussions, but I am all for a smooth game when we are actually playing.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Which doesn't make it any less cumbersome.

I don't see it as any more cumbersome than how 5E dealt with it. Remember how STR was prorated when adding to an Advantaged HKA or HA? Just figure it out at character creation (if you're going to use it at all) and it won't be problem in play.

[Ndreare]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Someone on page 1 asked so For those who care I took a count and in all three of the 6th books there are caracters with damage negation powers or counters with masterminds having the highest percentage at 9 vilians.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Someone on page 1 asked so For those who care I took a count and in all three of the 6th books there are caracters with damage negation powers or counters with masterminds having the highest percentage at 9 vilians.

 

Cool! Thanks for the info.

[Ndreare]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

I would still suggest getting them and teams in particular.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

DoNe.

[Christopher]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

If it is a problem doing the calculations or looking up a table to work out how much you reduce an advantaged attack by, get players to record on their character sheet when 5 points of power is worth in terms of DC.

 

For a 'straight' Blast, 5 points = 1DC

With a +1/4 advantage, 5 points = 0.8DC (4/5 DC)

With a +1/2 advantage, 5 points = 0.667DC (2/3 DC)

With a +3/4 advantage, 5 points = 0.57 DC (4/7 DC. OK, that one is a little awkward)

With a +1 advantage, 5 points = 0.5DC (1/2 DC)

I fear you do it exaclty the wrong way. 5AP = 1 DC. 1 DC = 5 AP. Always, regardless of advantages.

What does change ist the number of Dies per DC. So depending on advantages 1 DC = 0.8 d6.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

I fear you do it exaclty the wrong way. 5AP = 1 DC. 1 DC = 5 AP. Always, regardless of advantages.

What does change ist the number of Dies per DC. So depending on advantages 1 DC = 0.8 d6.

 

 

No, what I mean is that if you have an attack with a relevant +1/4 advantage, to find out how many DC you take off if you have (say) 4dice of DN, you multiply 4 by 0.8, you get 3.2. That rounds to 3. You are good. No tables.

 

If you have an attack with a relevant +1/2 advantage and you have 4 DN then it is 4 x 2/3, or 2 1/3, which is 2 dice off, or 2 1/2 if you use fiddly stuff.

 

That is what I meant.

[casualplayer]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

The meta of Damage Negation is making your opponents abide by Standard Effect conjoined with 3 pts of dedicated Defense to soak that standardized damage. If you don't want to reveal to your players that your NPCs have Damage Negation, just subtract 1 "3" result per level of DN then a "4" result and back and forth. Work your way out from the center pairing 7's and reduce the dice of effect similar to handling an Explosion.

 

I don't mind just subtracting dice from the damage pool to reflect the influence of Damage Negation, except for when it is a player that has the power. Players love to watch you roll hails of gunfire and have them not even muss their hair. Part of the appeal of the power is that no rookie cop or guy taking martial arts classes at the Y is going to scorch off a lucky shot and put my super on his ass.

 

I can't be bothered to memorize a list of which Advantages effectively boost Damage Classes. That's a rule that fails the "Use in Practice" test.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

The meta of Damage Negation is making your opponents abide by Standard Effect conjoined with 3 pts of dedicated Defense to soak that standardized damage. If you don't want to reveal to your players that your NPCs have Damage Negation' date=' just subtract 1 "3" result per level of DN then a "4" result and back and forth. Work your way out from the center pairing 7's and reduce the dice of effect similar to handling an Explosion.I don't mind just subtracting dice from the damage pool to reflect the influence of Damage Negation, except for when it is a player that has the power. Players love to watch you roll hails of gunfire and have them not even muss their hair. Part of the appeal of the power is that no rookie cop or guy taking martial arts classes at the Y is going to scorch off a lucky shot and put my super on his ass.I can't be bothered to memorize a list of which Advantages effectively boost Damage Classes. That's a rule that fails the "Use in Practice" test.[/quote']That last bit is waht confuses me. Why memorize it? Make a note of how many points per Damage Class when you build the Power. Done. No memoization. No looking up a chart mid game. Nothing. And that's only if Damage Negation is going to be a regular part of that particular campaign...

[Ndreare]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

That last bit is waht confuses me. Why memorize it? Make a note of how many points per Damage Class when you build the Power. Done. No memoization. No looking up a chart mid game. Nothing. And that's only if Damage Negation is going to be a regular part of that particular campaign...

 

This sounds alot like common sense and will not be tolerated!

 

Funny, once you said this I looked and realised how easy it was I fealt silly for not thinking of it myself.

[Lucius]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Damage Negation strikes me as a great candidate for an All or Nothing Limitation. that way you can make a superhero bulletproof for example without needlessly complicating other attacks.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

That's actually a very interesting idea.

[casualplayer]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

That last bit is waht confuses me. Why memorize it? Make a note of how many points per Damage Class when you build the Power. Done. No memoization. No looking up a chart mid game. Nothing. And that's only if Damage Negation is going to be a regular part of that particular campaign...

 

Really? How many of your characters' offensive powers have the points per Damage Class written down? Do you know which Advantages affect the points per Damage Class and which do not? How long would it take you to amend all of your characters for this option?

 

Then realize there are GMs who might not want to have to amend every published character they get the urge to use or put even more time into designing every NPC they create. And that unless explicitly forbidden Damage Negation can come up in any game that has Variable Power Pools even if no one starts out with the power on their sheet. And there is one of the main reasons why you would have to memorize or in-game reference the Advantages that Affect Damage Class chart, Variable Power Pools and the multitude of differently Advantaged powers that might emerge. Adjustment Powers and additive abilities like HKA and HTH become a nightmare to adjudicate also if you do anything outside of +DC vs -DC.

 

Meh, the ruling is more trouble than it is worth.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Really? How many of your characters' offensive powers have the points per Damage Class written down?

 

All the ones I expect to face a PC with a Drain, Suppress, etc. against that power, and all the ones I expect to have that power Aided or Succored, have a "points to reduce by one DC" figure. Otherwise, I either bog down the game using those adjustment powers. or I simply remove those powers from the game. I do need a second figure for DN, since some adjustments won't affect DC, but will change AP, but:

 

- knowing there is a character with Damage Negation in the PC's, I would annotate the NPC sheets with the damage they do against that specific character (I don't need to know the per DC cost, just the amount to remove for that character's DN)

 

- knowing I will use a villain with DN, I would consider up front how that impacts the PC's attacks - both whether I will tell them to reduce their own rolls or use some other approach, and how much the DN reduces each attack of the PC's. Just like I would work this out for a villain with an adjustment power so I tell the player "Your AP Blast is reduced 3d6", not "He removes 19 AP from your Blast".

 

Do you know which Advantages affect the points per Damage Class and which do not? How long would it take you to amend all of your characters for this option?

 

I don't need to amend them all at once. I can annotate the ones coming up for use in the next scenario or two at the same time I review them for any other issues likely to arise against these specific PC's.

 

As to the VPP, VPP's are an issue for any character. Ruling that DN cannot be purchased in the VPP would not be the end of the world. It's certainly preferable to banning it for all purposes.

[casualplayer]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

All the ones I expect to face a PC with a Drain, Suppress, etc. against that power, and all the ones I expect to have that power Aided or Succored, have a "points to reduce by one DC" figure. Otherwise, I either bog down the game using those adjustment powers. or I simply remove those powers from the game. I do need a second figure for DN, since some adjustments won't affect DC, but will change AP, but:

 

- knowing there is a character with Damage Negation in the PC's, I would annotate the NPC sheets with the damage they do against that specific character (I don't need to know the per DC cost, just the amount to remove for that character's DN)

 

- knowing I will use a villain with DN, I would consider up front how that impacts the PC's attacks - both whether I will tell them to reduce their own rolls or use some other approach, and how much the DN reduces each attack of the PC's. Just like I would work this out for a villain with an adjustment power so I tell the player "Your AP Blast is reduced 3d6", not "He removes 19 AP from your Blast".

 

 

 

I don't need to amend them all at once. I can annotate the ones coming up for use in the next scenario or two at the same time I review them for any other issues likely to arise against these specific PC's.

 

As to the VPP, VPP's are an issue for any character. Ruling that DN cannot be purchased in the VPP would not be the end of the world. It's certainly preferable to banning it for all purposes.

 

And is this work worth the effort? Does it improve things? I don't believe so. Hit me with some rationale other than RAW.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

And is this work worth the effort? Does it improve things? I don't believe so. Hit me with some rationale other than RAW.

 

I haven't worked with DN specifically enough to assess its value. I think it would make an interesting alternative to standard defenses for certain games, where we want characters to be able to take BOD damage more frequently while still having reasonably high defenses against STUN damage.

 

Some might say Hero is too much work since I have to subtract my defenses from damage done, track BOD, STUN and END, as opposed to d20 style games where I just subtract damage from hit points. Every gamer will assess their own values. To me, DN doesn't seem all that complex, but I base that on look and feel rather than actual play experience. Any actual play experience out there?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

@casualplayer: If you don't like it, don't use it. Problem solved. The Power is optional, just like the rest of the toolkit.

 

My issue is some people posting are claiming that there is inherently something wrong or "broke" or over complicated with DN. But that is totally subjective. I know of several posters who never use END in their heroic level games because they feel it is too much bookkeeping, but they generally don't try to convince the forum at large that END is overcomplicated or shouldn't be an option. Is having DN in a Champions game really that much more work than a Heroic level game that uses all of the optional combat rules (hit locations, impairing, debilitating, additional bleeding rules and more)? I really don't think so. That doesn't mean it is right for every game or even any game with some groups, but claiming there is something inherently wrong with it seems disingenuous for a system like Hero that is such a toolkit. (I'm not aiming this at you particularly, it is just the general feel I'm getting from those that dislike it).

[Lucius]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

Perhaps in addition to the current "markers" we have for Powers that can prove unbalancing, or have potential to be plot-stoppers, we need one for Powers that may prove overly complex in play.

 

I'd hate to take Damage Negation out of the toolkit, but in many cases it should probably have the "All or Nothing" Limitation I mentioned and be used strictly for "Grendal cannot be harmed by nonmagical weapons doing less than 7 Damage Classes" or "Stainless Steel Man is literally bulletproof - nothing less than a bursting artillery shell can damage him."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Proof

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Negation!

 

And is this work worth the effort? Does it improve things? I don't believe so. Hit me with some rationale other than RAW.

 

 

The problem with NOT pro-rating the DN is this:

 

12d6 Blast and 6d6 NND Blast (or AVAD/AON Blast) both cost 60 points

 

Against 6d6 Damage Negation the Blast puts through 21/6 damage, the NND puts through nothing.

 

If you pro-rate the DN taking into account the relevant advantage, the NND does 10.5/3 (taking an average).

 

Now the NND still comes off worst (that is one of the things DN is good at) but at least it does something. The target does NOT have the relevant defence, but with DN they do not need it.

 

Now if you are happy to let that go for the sake of game play, cool beans.

 

As a player though, I'd be relatively hacked off if the target just ignored my NND and the NND of my team mate who uses completely different SFX and has a different 'all or nothing'. Equally, turning it around, if a player buys DN regularly on the basis that is it particularly effective against NND attacks, it changes the way you build villains. The problem is that once the word spreads, you will find more people buying DN, to at least take the edge off. Then you stop building villains with NND (or they never use the ones they have) and the whole thing spirals so that players have less efficient defences that you probably did not have everyone wanting and nothing for them to shine against.

 

OK, you might say that is a bit of a doomsday scenario, but in fact it is simple economics: if something is a bargain then everyone will buy, but the market will find some way to restore equilibrium.

 

...and no mention of RAW!