How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

[Tobias Brick]

Hi all (first post--hopefully I don't do anything dumb or insulting...)

 

I'm in a campaign that's kind of low-end superhero. My character is a physicist who has an alien in his brain that gives him force powers, and makes him insane. Fun times.

 

I have a 60-point reserve multipower that holds my force-related offensive powers (energy blast, telekinesis). My GM has set 60 as the upper limit for our powers and multipower reserves. I'd like to add a close area of effect that will get bad guys away from me. Damage isn't super important here--the main goal is to get them away and spread them out.

 

The best I can come up with is this:

 

Energy Blast 4d6

--Personal Immunity (+1/4)

--Double Knockback (+3/4)

--Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1)

(60 Active Points)

 

Assuming average rolls, this attack will do 4 body damage, which is made 8 back Double Knockback (for determining knockback). An average and the 2 knockback dice would give 7, so on average this will knock someone back one inch (and knock them down).

 

I'd like to come up with a way to make this more effective in the goal of spreading baddies out and knocking them down. Only thing I can think of is somehow trading in damage for effective body for knockback, but I don't see anything that would let me do that.

 

Any ideas? Thanks!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Why not use Telekinesis, limited to only push away, rather than any sort of Blast?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Go with Area Affect Cone instead.

 

Another option would be to build Ranged Martial Art maneuvers (like Martial Throw) that can be combined with Telekinesis.

 

See more in this old post (built for 5er but easily converted to 6e rules)

[Lucius]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Force Shove: Flight 12m, Position Shift, Custom Modifier (Works like Knockback: roll 1d6 less for targets in the air, apply Knockback Resistance, targets get Breakfall and Acrobatics rolls to mitigate, etc; +0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Usable As Attack (+2 1/4), all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor (59 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Randomized: Roll 2d6 and subtract from distance; -1), Instant (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to shove everyone in the area away and knock them down; -1/2)

 

Costs 2 as a fixed slot, 4 as a variable slot.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pushing a palindromedary around

[Beast]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

going with explosion instead of Area radius will get you 5 dice for 62 pts

 

EB 5d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (62 Active Points)

 

too bad you cannot do it in 6th ed or you could have this

 

Blast 6d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points)

that is 8" before 1 die falls off average of 6 body doubles to 12" minus 7(average KB roll) get you 5" of KB with a -2 to keep standing

[Beast]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

you could also take off the Personal immunity and brace with Str vs the knock down and get a little mo0re out of it

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Another build I've used to generate lots of KB (without doing any Stun or Body) is a Flash v. Hearing (or other non-targeting sense) with the Area Effect (cone), Does Knockback, and Double Knockback advantages. It's cheap, and it doesn't do any damage to the targets other than briefly deafening them and sending them flying.

 

For your character's Force-based special effect, Flash v. Touch might be more appropriate than v. Hearing; the targets would be temporarily numbed due to the force of the blast, and of course, knocked back a good ways.

 

I've used this in both 5th and 6th edition; the details and point totals differ but it works either way.

[Christopher]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Why not use Telekinesis' date=' limited to only push away, rather than any sort of Blast?[/quote']

This is the way. I am not certain how the maneuver is called in 5E (I only know in 6E it's Shove), but it's designed to use STR to move a target.

 

Just add another slot:

40 STR TK, Area of Effect, Only to Shove, Limited range

This is they way I would build the Jedi Force Shove seen in the prequel trillogy against droids.

 

You could also use your nomral TK and use whatever multiattack is possible in 5E to hit multiple targets with one push/shove attack (it might still look like you hit all of them at once).

[Sougen]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

One cheap way that is not normally allowed is buying the martial maneuver "Shove" with area of effect "radius", and personal immunity. You can then buy up the value on it with bonuses to HtH damage classes. The Shove power would only be 14 active points and have a +15str to perform the shove (+35 with 16pts of HtH bonuses).

 

The other option that is less objectionable is to build a TK attack. TK with AoE Radius, Personal Immunity, push/shove only, and no range (thus it is the area around you, not off in the distance). One can get 26 str at 58 active points (29 real with the lims I have) with the above. It isn't as powerful or polished as the shove option, but it is certainly more balanced.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Also, I thought of this after posting: You can buy simple strength with the same mods above for TK (minus no range). It actually works a little bit more cleanly but requires you to either proportion off your initial str., or buy a naked advantage for the initial str as well. One can get a 40str attack in with 60 active points.

[Christopher]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Also' date=' I thought of this after posting: You can buy simple strength with the same mods above for TK (minus no range). It actually works a little bit more cleanly but requires you to either proportion off your initial str., or buy a naked advantage for the initial str as well. One can get a 40str attack in with 60 active points.[/quote']

A lot of things can be done using Area of Effect for STR. I even think it is a good way for speedsters to build tircks like "disarm every mook in a small formation". Of course, as usual Area of Effect is easier/cheaper to pull of in 6E than 5E.

[Ice9]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Yeah, AoE Strength seems like a good way to go. Assuming you have 10 Strength normally, it would look something like:

30 +30 Strength, Only to Shove

30 Naked Advantage: Area of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4) for up to 40 points of Strength.

[JmOz]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

I've done it with both Flash Touch, and Dispel KBr (Not quite RAW)

[teh bunneh]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Riffing off what JMoz said, I created a character once with Dispel KB Resistance, does KB, double KB. Not strictly rules-legal but it did exactly what the player wanted and worked pretty well in actual play.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

For those who are interested here are more details from a 2011 similar thread:

 

From the (6e) rules FAQ:

On APG 54 it notes that if an Adjustment Power has a secondary effect (such as the Does Knockback Advantage), then the secondary effect doesn't apply if the target doesn't have the Characteristic or Power that the Adjustment Power was built to affect. How would this work in the case of an Adjustment Power that affects more than one ability simultaneously, and the target has some of those abilities and not others?

 

As long as the target has at least one game element that the Adjustment Power can affect, secondary effects (such as Does Knockback) apply, even if the Adjustment Power has only partial effect against that game element.

 

.....

 

If a character has a Power like Flash, Drain, or Dispel with the Advantage Does Knockback, and the target lacks the Sense or ability the Power affects, does the target still take Knockback?

 

No. As noted on APG 54, an Adjustment Power with a secondary effect (such as Does Knockback, which is specifically cited) doesn’t have that secondary effect if the target doesn’t have the Characteristic/Power/whatever that the Adjustment Power affects. For example, a Drain Blast, Does Knockback, if used against a target with no Blast attack, has no effect at all — it doesn’t cause Knockback. Generally speaking, this reasoning extends to other powers, including Dispel (which is similar to Adjustment Powers in many ways), Flash, and the like. If the target cannot be affected by the power because he lacks what it targets (e.g., a blind person hit with a Sight Group Flash; a person without Flight hit with Dispel Flight), then the secondary effect (such as Does Knockback) also cannot apply. Note, however, that having a lot of defense against an attack (e.g., enough Sight Group Flash Defense to totally block a Flash) or being temporarily immune to a power (e.g., a character being protected from Sight Group Flashes because he was just affected by one and is now temporarily blind) does not qualify as “cannot be affected” — as used above, that term generally means it’s impossible for the character ever to be affected, not just temporarily impossible. As always, the GM should apply these rules with an eye toward common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and game balance.

 

I don't particularly like this ruling but I understand the reasons behind it.

 

I think the rules(pre-6e at least) should have included a 3 point base Power that does nothing* unless it has a required Does KB Advantage (like a reverse of the HTH Limitation on HA Attacks). Without it, no damage KB attacks either have to work with the above rule or be based on an EB with Double KB (which is cheaper in 6e). This then runs into active point issues for Multipowers and VPP's using the EB method with 60 active (8d6 x2KB EB) vs. 10d6 base nothing* (@3/d6) with Does KB, x2 KB & 1/2 END (60 active).

 

Of course some GM's will think even 16 average Body is too much KB let alone 20" (before rolling 3d6 and any KB resistance).

[JmOz]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

For those who are interested here are more details from a 2011 similar thread:

 

From the (6e) rules FAQ:

 

 

I don't particularly like this ruling but I understand the reasons behind it.

 

I think the rules(pre-6e at least) should have included a 3 point base Power that does nothing* unless it has a required Does KB Advantage (like a reverse of the HTH Limitation on HA Attacks). Without it, no damage KB attacks either have to work with the above rule or be based on an EB with Double KB (which is cheaper in 6e). This then runs into active point issues for Multipowers and VPP's using the EB method with 60 active (8d6 x2KB EB) vs. 10d6 base nothing* (@3/d6) with Does KB, x2 KB & 1/2 END (60 active).

 

Of course some GM's will think even 16 average Body is too much KB let alone 20" (before rolling 3d6 and any KB resistance).

 

Not a bad idea, but I would say that the base power DOES do KB, but that is all it does. You could of course not apply the double kb advantages to it

[Tobias Brick]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Thanks everyone for the great replies!

 

(I was absolutely hammered by work and home right after posting this; please forgive my ignoring your responses for a week.)

 

Looking at these options, I like the concept of the flash vs. touch attack. I worry about that, though, because I definitely think this should work on something like robot, which may or may not have touch.

 

The martial throw idea is intriguing as well and it fits thematically in that my character's main TK power is a push/pull only power and I frequently grab dudes and throw them. But that's an individual. I could spread the attack and attack everyone individually (which I think is what you're suggesting). I'll talk to my GM about whether that would work with my current power set.

 

I'm playing 5E. Is "shove" a 6E construct? If so, is martial throw the closest thing in 5E? Or am I greatly missing something?

 

Also, I'm not sure how a naked advantage really works. I read the section on it and I'm not much clearer.

 

Thanks again.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How can I build a power that does all knock-back?

 

Re: Shove & Martial Throw

 

I believe Shove was introduced in 5e Ultimate Martial Arts. Both maneuvers could be combined with a 5e Sweep (HTH) or Rapid Attack (Ranged) or 6e Multiple Attack . This is where having AOE 1 Hex Accurate and Invisible Power Effects on the base Telekinesis comes in handy (vs. base DCV & Block only usable vs. perceivable attacks). This might eliminate the need for a separate K-only power build.