Can be used as...

[Markdoc]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You know, thinking about it, this comes from the same root as several other edge cases in HERO - the fact that Strength breaks all the rules. The Strength stat gives a large number of abilities, many usable simultaneously, that should really require a number of separate powers and probably cost a lot more.

 

The reason it doesn't is so that "high strength guy" can be a viable character. That's an important goal, and not something we want to give up, IMO, so maybe we'll just have to accept that anything relating to Strength (TK, HA, HKA) is going to get a bit wonky sometimes.

 

Agree 100%. Now that figureds have been split off, it's not such a problem, but that's still where the roots of the problem lie.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Probably only true as long as you do not buy the other advantages of TK such as indirect. I am in favour of simplification and would happily remove TK from the powers list with a note that telekinetic powers can often be purchased by buying advantaged STR.

 

Doc

 

Here, I'd tend to agree with you

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Right: a MP allows a 60 point power to be a normal Blast or a RKA for +12 points (or a 20% increase in cost). You can put TK and a RKA in a MP' date=' but that does not preserve the functionality as one is constant and one is not.[/quote']

 

And you can put a Force Field and a Blast in a Multipower, but that does not preserve the functionality as one is constant and one is not. Should we allow an advantage which permits any Constant power to also be used as an attack power, or to allow a Constant power to be linked to an attack in some other way to allow an attack and a constant power to be acquired at a steep discount?

 

What I suggested was allowing a ‘damage conversion’ as a +1/4 advantage, which would add 15 points (or 25% to the cost) and allow you to use the TK STR to do Killing Damage. Whilst that is useful, bear in mind:

 

1. You are paying for it: it is not a gimme, and

 

No, it is a discount.

 

2. The actual utility us relatively limited anyway as you only get 2/3 of the points in TK as damage' date=' so it is not likely to be unbalancing.[/quote']

 

Well, if my choice is 40 STR TK + 2 1/2d6 RKA (if I am reading your suggestion correctly), with the two being Unified, that would cost 60/1.25 + 40/1.25 = 72 points. Applying your advantage to the same 40 STR TK costs 75 points. So it's a 3 point difference. So why is it so unacceptable that you be asked to buy the 2 1/2d6 KA, Unify it with your TK, and define it as "using your KA to do killing damage"? If you want an array of other things your TK can be used as, a Multipower of abilties similar to that KA seems to do the trick.

 

What is the compelling need for this new advantage? I don't see it, and I don't like the ramifications of a precedent for "you can use this power as another power at the same time for a +1/4 advantage".

 

So Aid doesn't enhance both at the same time. Aid has never enhanced two mechanics that are part of one power as if it were a single power. Most Swiss Army Multipowers are just the same power modulated in different ways, and enhancing two slots requires THREE Aid applications (one each to the pool and each slot).

 

To your Megascale Stretching, if you're willing to use a full phase for every use of that ability, and drop to noncombat OCV, then good luck with that!

 

True, but you can have TK outside of the Multipower, and then inside the Multipower a bit more TK, an RKA, and whatever else you want.

 

I once tried to argue that TK shouldn't do damage directly, or if it did it ought to be able to do both Normal and Killing: if you can smack someone around or throw them against a wall, why can you not reach inside and squeeze their heart? It probably ought not to do damage directly, but for the last few editions at least, it does.

 

Actually, I'd like to see TK revised as STR at Range, given that's all it really is. Yes, you could buy a 40 STR and add "ranged" to it. So what? This would also mean basic TK is direct - if you want Indirect, pay for it.

 

I do not understand why martial arts combined with TK is undesireable for this effect when it fits the concept of skilled with TK and the game mechanics desired of NND & RKA?

 

I don't either. It seems like a reasonable way of accomplishing the goal. But the focus here seems to be on "make a new mechanic instead of using the huge volume of mechanics we already have".

 

Sure there is. Ranged Str costs less. Always use the more expensive means.

 

Ranged Indirect STR costs more than TK. Ranged STR costs 3 points per +2 STR, just like TK.

 

I always hated that meta rule. I figured if a player wants to fid an alternate build let him.

 

I find that metarule is misinterpreted a lot. It does not say "find the most expensive means you could possibly use to construct the ability, however cumbersome and kludgy, and use that". It says to select the more expensive of two builds which are both reasonable and valid approaches to the build. An ego blast is not purchased as Blast, LoS Range, ACACV (MCV vs MCV), AVAD (mental defense), IPE (only visible to mental group), which would be more expensive. It is purchased using the Mental Blast power. Why? Because the Mental Blast is the more reasonable and valid approach to the build, so we aren't comparing two reasonable, valid builds.

[Markdoc]

Re: Can be used as...

 

If there is reaction to actions you can not lift yourself off the ground' date=' no matter how strong you are, without something to pull against. If there is no action/reaction - which is what the rules say - then you can pull yourself off the ground even if there is nothing to pull against. [/quote']

 

Obviously, without something to pull against, you can't pull yourself off the ground, in that we agree. However, if there is no action/reaction, then you can't pull yourself off the ground even if there is something to pull against. As far as I can see, that statement means exactly the what the author meant it to mean.

 

What TK needs is simply to say that you can not use TK to move yourself' date=' not to try and explain it, as the explanation is wrong either way.[/quote']

 

Her, however, I think you have a point

 

The weirdness creeps in when' date=' say, a TK character can lift a car that they are not in, but can not lift a car that they are in, or weirder they can lift a car and move it, but if they jump on it they can no longer move it. It does not make sense because TK is not real. Generally I make TK characters buy flight too, or a limited version of it, just to prevent this kind of paradox occurring.[/quote']

 

Here I don't have a problem, or even think it's weird. In some cases in the source material, telekineticists "fly" by moving something that they sit in/on (the Great and Powerful Turtle, for example). But in much of the material, telekineticists can't do that. Just as a strong man can lift an object off the ground, but can't lift himself by grabbing his own shirt, a telekineticist can lift an object, but can't do so if he is on it himself. I don't find that "odd" (well, no odder than TK is itself) because I think of TK as reactionless - the telekineticist is moving the object relative to himself, and there is no action/reaction to the force he exerts. It's just action. If he lifts a battleship, he doesn't sink into the ground from the weight pressing down, for example, and he doesn't have to brace himself (except perhaps mentally) to catch or throw an object telekinetically. With that mental picture, it's not only not weird, but seems quite logical that he can't lift a car if he is in it.

 

Like you, I require flight if they want to move around, but to me, that's an added power, not a requirement.

 

Interestingly, this discussion illustrates the point I was making to Doc Democracy about the problems with making special effects the definer of mechanics. I would have thought that TK was relatively simple power, but it's become quite clear that we have very different ideas of what it is/should be and what's "reasonable" use.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Reaction to an action simply means that if you apply a force to something then an equal and opposite force is applied to you, which is why you CAN pull yourself up on a fixed bar but you can not pull yourself up by grabbing your own collar. If there was no reaction to an action then you COULD apply a force without suffering an equal and opposite force, which would mean that you COULD pull yourself up by grabbing your own collar, but you would not be able to pull yourself up by grabbing a fixed bar. It is not the conclusion I am arguing with, it is the explanation for the conclusion.

 

The problem is that TK is not a real thing, and if it was then it would either be reactionless (you can lift yourself and move yourself) or it would have the normal reaction thing happening (you can not lift yourself directly but can pull yourself up something, like stretching). I'm pretty sure they are the only two options. Anyway, we agree on where we need to be: you can not move yourself unless you have flight as well.

 

Although the source material often shows Magneto, for example, telekinetically 'flying' by lifting a manhole cover and standing on it (or just by wearing an iron laced suit), in Hero terms he has both TK and Flight with a focus. In fact for that trick he does not even need TK, although he clearly has that too.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

And you can put a Force Field and a Blast in a Multipower' date=' but that does not preserve the functionality as one is constant and one is not. Should we allow an advantage which permits any Constant power to also be used as an attack power, or to allow a Constant power to be linked to an attack in some other way to allow an attack and a constant power to be acquired at a steep discount?[/quote']

 

No, that was not what I was suggesting. I am saying that it would not be unbalanced to have the ability to convert the normal damage you can do with TK to killing damage for a +1/4 advantage. I make the point that you can not use the usual MP fix as TK is constant, but I am not suggesting we apply the idea to every constant power. That would be silly.

 

Well, if my choice is 40 STR TK + 2 1/2d6 RKA (if I am reading your suggestion correctly), with the two being Unified, that would cost 60/1.25 + 40/1.25 = 72 points. Applying your advantage to the same 40 STR TK costs 75 points. So it's a 3 point difference. So why is it so unacceptable that you be asked to buy the 2 1/2d6 KA, Unify it with your TK, and define it as "using your KA to do killing damage"? If you want an array of other things your TK can be used as, a Multipower of abilties similar to that KA seems to do the trick.

 

What is the compelling need for this new advantage? I don't see it, and I don't like the ramifications of a precedent for "you can use this power as another power at the same time for a +1/4 advantage".

 

So Aid doesn't enhance both at the same time. Aid has never enhanced two mechanics that are part of one power as if it were a single power. Most Swiss Army Multipowers are just the same power modulated in different ways, and enhancing two slots requires THREE Aid applications (one each to the pool and each slot).

 

If you have 60 points in TK and you get a 30 point Aid to TK, then both the lift STR increases AND the damage, because it is all one power. TK is a special case because it works rather differently from many other powers as it has more than one effect and is, in effect, a superpowered Talent i.e. it is prebuilt from other bits of the system and then made to look as if it is not. It is STR+Range+Indirect+Extra Limbs, at a massive discount.

 

I suppose part of what I am looking for is a straightforward way to properly unify powers i.e. define two powers as one, which would have the effect of allowing them both to be Aided by a single Aid.

 

In the case of TK, which is all I am talking about, I do not see how it would be unbalanced or abusive. To be honest I would also not see how it is unbalanced or abusive to allow it for a Blast that could be used as a RKA either. You pay slightly more and both can be aided together with a single Aid, albeit a little less than you could aid either one alone. It adds utility to the toolkit, allowing you to define some combinations of powers as a single power with added utility.

 

 

To your Megascale Stretching, if you're willing to use a full phase for every use of that ability, and drop to noncombat OCV, then good luck with that!

 

I really have to use more smileys.

 

 

 

...er...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also I reiterate the point about TK indirect being, in effect, the +1 version, and I see no need for that. The +1/2 version 'can come at you from any direction' would be enough, and would make the discounting (slightly) more reasonable. Not a complete solution, but a start.

[Markdoc]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Reaction to an action simply means that if you apply a force to something then an equal and opposite force is applied to you' date=' which is why you CAN pull yourself up on a fixed bar but you can not pull yourself up by grabbing your own collar. If there was no reaction to an action then you COULD apply a force without suffering an equal and opposite force, which would mean that you COULD pull yourself up by grabbing your own collar, but you would not be able to pull yourself up by grabbing a fixed bar. It is not the conclusion I am arguing with, it is the explanation for the conclusion.[/quote']

 

Uh. That's still not making any sense to me. Applying force to the bar and having an reactive force applied to you - so you can pull yourself up. That I understand. Applying a force to the bar and having no reactive force means that nothing would be applied to you and so you couldn't pull yourself up. So far, so good.

 

problem is that TK is not a real thing' date=' and if it was then it would either be reactionless (you can lift yourself and move yourself) or it would have the normal reaction thing happening (you can not lift yourself directly but can pull yourself up something, like stretching). I'm pretty sure they are the only two options. Anyway, we agree on where we need to be: you can not move yourself unless you have flight as well.[/quote']

 

It seems we have different definition of reactionless then. By my understanding the lack of any feedback on yourself (lack of reaction) means that you could not move yourself - in other words you can affect objects relative to your self, but there is no feedback, so you cannot move yourself relative to other objects. Either way, though, we agree that for flight, you should build flight

 

Although the source material often shows Magneto' date=' for example, telekinetically 'flying' by lifting a manhole cover and standing on it (or just by wearing an iron laced suit), in Hero terms he has both TK and Flight with a focus. In fact for that trick he does not even need TK, although he clearly has that too.[/quote']

 

Yeah, this is where using comics books as a source can be a bit tricky, since Magneto can fly even when buck naked. So he clearly has flight, pure and simple. Why he'd ever bother to fly around on manhole cover, I dunno - maybe it's to keep a manhole cover handy to fire at somebody, or he's bought reduced END via focus ... but I suspect really it's just because it looks cool and goes with the whole magnetism theme.

 

cheers, Mark

[Martin2]

Re: Can be used as...

 

If there is reaction to actions you can not lift yourself off the ground, no matter how strong you are, without something to pull against. If there is no action/reaction - which is what the rules say - then you can pull yourself off the ground even if there is nothing to pull against.

 

What TK needs is simply to say that you can not use TK to move yourself, not to try and explain it, as the explanation is wrong either way.

 

The weirdness creeps in when, say, a TK character can lift a car that they are not in, but can not lift a car that they are in, or weirder they can lift a car and move it, but if they jump on it they can no longer move it. It does not make sense because TK is not real. Generally I make TK characters buy flight too, or a limited version of it, just to prevent this kind of paradox occurring.[/color]

 

I havent read the whole thread so your example probably has been covered by previous examples (and possibly myself!) so I am probably jumping in with old news but I have this sort of things with my players.

 

Simply I say to my group is that you have to put in a limits to a power. In theory you could lift a car and transport it with you team mates but not yourself that is valid. But you can not transport yourself and your your team in a flying car as that is not covered by the basic Telekenesis.

 

Its like why can not a Telekenetic fly with basic Telekenesis? All logical, you just apply a force and instead of moving an object you move yourself. Similar sort of thing with the car. It is because that adds a level of power to Teleknesis that not all players want from their SFX. Some may not want a flying telekenetic. If it was compulsory that all Telekenetic could fly with extra strength to carry people I think the cost per strength in Telekenetic should go up to say 2 or 3 points per strength to have "flying" but how fast would you fly (same flight as strength???). But then a non flying Telekenetic would then say it is so expensive!

 

I have a non flying Telekenetic in my game (he also has ranged killing attack but this involves directly "throwing" sharp things from himself to a target in a MP slot and not a "free" strength conversion instead of a blast attack).

 

I think it is a lot better to build a MP or VPP with all the extras you need.

 

Slots =

Telekenesis

Flight own use

Flight + additional strength to pick up a car and team + NCM for reasonable speed etc.

RKA indirect + others to simulate telekenetic blade KA etc

 

By the way Sean I think I may have found your twin brother who is currently playing in my game and he comes up with similar very logical Teleport power effects but I keep telling him "yes you can do this with teleport but you really need to add another slot to your MP to do it!".

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can be used as...

 

By the way Sean I think I may have found your twin brother who is currently playing in my game and he comes up with similar very logical Teleport power effects but I keep telling him "yes you can do this with teleport but you really need to add another slot to your MP to do it!".

 

Has he ever suggested using Transform and/or Extradimensional Movement?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

...

It seems we have different definition of reactionless then. By my understanding the lack of any feedback on yourself (lack of reaction) means that you could not move yourself - in other words you can affect objects relative to your self, but there is no feedback, so you cannot move yourself relative to other objects. Either way, though, we agree that for flight, you should build flight

 

...

 

So what if you move the suit of armour you are wearing relative to you? It moves up in the air and that applies a force to you (as you are in it) and so you go up in the air because the force you apply to it does not have a reaction force. I'm not saying I think you SHOULD be able to do it with Hero TK, I'm saying that is what no reaction to actions implies.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Has he ever suggested using Transform and/or Extradimensional Movement?

 

Don't you start, Goodwin

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

I havent read the whole thread so your example probably has been covered by previous examples (and possibly myself!) so I am probably jumping in with old news but I have this sort of things with my players.

 

Simply I say to my group is that you have to put in a limits to a power. In theory you could lift a car and transport it with you team mates but not yourself that is valid. But you can not transport yourself and your your team in a flying car as that is not covered by the basic Telekenesis.

 

Its like why can not a Telekenetic fly with basic Telekenesis? All logical, you just apply a force and instead of moving an object you move yourself. Similar sort of thing with the car. It is because that adds a level of power to Teleknesis that not all players want from their SFX. Some may not want a flying telekenetic. If it was compulsory that all Telekenetic could fly with extra strength to carry people I think the cost per strength in Telekenetic should go up to say 2 or 3 points per strength to have "flying" but how fast would you fly (same flight as strength???). But then a non flying Telekenetic would then say it is so expensive!

 

I have a non flying Telekenetic in my game (he also has ranged killing attack but this involves directly "throwing" sharp things from himself to a target in a MP slot and not a "free" strength conversion instead of a blast attack).

 

I think it is a lot better to build a MP or VPP with all the extras you need.

 

Slots =

Telekenesis

Flight own use

Flight + additional strength to pick up a car and team + NCM for reasonable speed etc.

RKA indirect + others to simulate telekenetic blade KA etc

 

By the way Sean I think I may have found your twin brother who is currently playing in my game and he comes up with similar very logical Teleport power effects but I keep telling him "yes you can do this with teleport but you really need to add another slot to your MP to do it!".

 

Funnily enough I agree, but then I have been playing Hero forever. Moreover I tend to think of these things myself when I am creating a character, or reviewing some one else's. In this case I was thinking 'I can form a TK fist with TK, why can I not also (for an appropriate price) form a TK spike?' The problem with sticking it all in a MP is you are changing functionality which is why I perceived a possible need for an alternative way to do it.

 

 

Here's an interesting question: would it be unbalancing if you bought TK and, right from the start, defined all direct damage you could do as Killing rather than normal, at the same DC? After all 1 DC of killing damage and one DC of normal damage cost the same.

[Ice9]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You know, I've never paid attention to the "you can't lift yourself, by any means" rule. Because honestly, having a floating car stop moving if you jump onto it creates more disconnect and WTF than it's worth.

I've not found this to be an issue though, because Flight is a form of movement, which doesn't end your phase and you can do maneuvers with, and TK is an attack. Also, somebody being lifted directly by TK is effectively Grabbed.

 

But then, I also let Transform actually do useful things, so you should take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Ha! Like it. Of course you can use TK to move yourself. Roll to hit yourself. Success...OK, your phase has ended...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

No' date=' that was not what I was suggesting. I am saying that it would not be unbalanced to have the ability to convert the normal damage you can do with TK to killing damage for a +1/4 advantage. I make the point that you can not use the usual MP fix as TK is constant, but I am not suggesting we apply the idea to every constant power. That would be silly.[/quote']

 

Yet that is the precedent being set. We get to substitute one ability for another.

 

If you have 60 points in TK and you get a 30 point Aid to TK, then both the lift STR increases AND the damage, because it is all one power. TK is a special case because it works rather differently from many other powers as it has more than one effect and is, in effect, a superpowered Talent i.e. it is prebuilt from other bits of the system and then made to look as if it is not. It is STR+Range+Indirect+Extra Limbs, at a massive discount.

 

In the case of TK, which is all I am talking about, I do not see how it would be unbalanced or abusive. To be honest I would also not see how it is unbalanced or abusive to allow it for a Blast that could be used as a RKA either. You pay slightly more and both can be aided together with a single Aid, albeit a little less than you could aid either one alone. It adds utility to the toolkit, allowing you to define some combinations of powers as a single power with added utility.

 

I suppose part of what I am looking for is a straightforward way to properly unify powers i.e. define two powers as one, which would have the effect of allowing them both to be Aided by a single Aid. In any case, Powers are Unified for Aid seems a lot more specific than what you asked for at the outset, and have been arguing for over the course of the thread.

 

Many abilities can be constructed from other building blocks. A Mental Blast can be built as an advantaged Blast. It doesn`t make it a Blast.

 

I might have a ThunderBlast which is a Blast plus Sight and Sound Flash. They are all one power. Why should they also not be Aided together? Practically, I would not have a concern with allowing Unified Power to join the powers for all Adjustment effects, but that's probably because positive Adjustment powers aren't all that common in my games anyway.

 

And I note that the telekinesis example would presumably lose the potential for the KA to be Aided, since it`s not a KA.

 

If we allowed this approach, we would at least solve HKA being enhanced by STR if we required you buy STR can also be used for killing damage instead.

 

Also I reiterate the point about TK indirect being' date=' in effect, the +1 version, and I see no need for that. The +1/2 version 'can come at you from any direction' would be enough, and would make the discounting (slightly) more reasonable. Not a complete solution, but a start. [/quote']

 

I see no need for it to be indirect. Set the cost as Ranged STR. You want Indirect, shell out some points for Indirect. This would cost TK appropriately, at least in my opinion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Yet that is the precedent being set. We get to substitute one ability for another.

 

 

 

Many abilities can be constructed from other building blocks. A Mental Blast can be built as an advantaged Blast. It doesn`t make it a Blast.

 

I might have a ThunderBlast which is a Blast plus Sight and Sound Flash. They are all one power. Why should they also not be Aided together? Practically, I would not have a concern with allowing Unified Power to join the powers for all Adjustment effects, but that's probably because positive Adjustment powers aren't all that common in my games anyway.

 

And I note that the telekinesis example would presumably lose the potential for the KA to be Aided, since it`s not a KA.

 

If we allowed this approach, we would at least solve HKA being enhanced by STR if we required you buy STR can also be used for killing damage instead.

 

 

 

I see no need for it to be indirect. Set the cost as Ranged STR. You want Indirect, shell out some points for Indirect. This would cost TK appropriately, at least in my opinion.

 

You can't have it both ways. Why not require Mental Blast to be built as a Blast with AVAD and ACV and range: LOS and, for that matter, partially indirect, which would cost more? Why should TK be Advantaged STR if Mental Blast is not Advantaged Blast? Either we discount for packages or we build from scratch. TK is not particularly troublesome as a power most of the time, although there are unfortunate synergies with Barrier now that was far less of a problem with 5ed Force Wall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You can't have it both ways. Why not require Mental Blast to be built as a Blast with AVAD and ACV and range: LOS and' date=' for that matter, partially indirect, which would cost more? Why should TK be Advantaged STR if Mental Blast is not Advantaged Blast? Either we discount for packages or we build from scratch. TK is not particularly troublesome as a power most of the time, although there are unfortunate synergies with Barrier now that was far less of a problem with 5ed Force Wall.[/quote']

 

I think Mental Blast and Telekinesis both achieve balance by Plot Induced Stupidity.

 

How many diatribes do we see about mentalist snipers? Unquestionably, a power with Line of Sight Range which is Invisible to most senses is most effectively used as a long-range sniper power. But, due to the negative perception of the mentalist sniper, we don't allow him to fully leverage the benefits of these advantages. Instead, we accept and expect that those Mentalists will stand toe to toe with the Bricks and the Blasters.

 

Would the standard Mentalist tactics in a typical game be modified if mental attacks were visible and took normal range penalties by default? I don't think they would be. Perhaps those advantages should be removed from the default. Who says they should be Invisible by default? The assertion is typically that, well, normally in the source material, they're imperceptible. Are they really? Seems to me Professor X and Jean Grey always had their hands up on their temples with a look of concentration as waves of concentrated mental energy emanated from them.

 

Even if they are, should that same logic not have been applied to Telekinesis - which, when we think of the word, is equated to what the system has come to call psychokinesis?

 

There is no reason for Telekinesis to be Indirect by default, and at no cost. STR costs 10 points for +10 STR and 15 points for +10 TK. Blast costs 15 points for 3d6 or 10 points for 3d6 if we remove its Range. That's the value of Range. So apply it consistently, and don't provide TK with extra freebies beyond its automatic abilities as a constant power.

 

Barrier is a separate (one you and I are discussing on a separate thread), but I rarely saw anyone use Force Wall. As such, I conclude it was overpriced for its effects, and a change to reduce the cost of the effect was overdue. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, but I really haven't seen it. Certainly not to the extent mental blasts would be overpowered if we allowed mentalists to leverage their invisibility and LoS range by adding Tunnelling and X-Ray Vision.

[Ndreare]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Tunneling and xray? Mind scan is better, no need to leave the base afterall...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Tunneling and xray? Mind scan is better' date=' no need to leave the base afterall...[/quote']

 

Hey, make it EDM Mind Scan!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

I think Mental Blast and Telekinesis both achieve balance by Plot Induced Stupidity.

 

How many diatribes do we see about mentalist snipers? Unquestionably, a power with Line of Sight Range which is Invisible to most senses is most effectively used as a long-range sniper power. But, due to the negative perception of the mentalist sniper, we don't allow him to fully leverage the benefits of these advantages. Instead, we accept and expect that those Mentalists will stand toe to toe with the Bricks and the Blasters.

 

Would the standard Mentalist tactics in a typical game be modified if mental attacks were visible and took normal range penalties by default? I don't think they would be. Perhaps those advantages should be removed from the default. Who says they should be Invisible by default? The assertion is typically that, well, normally in the source material, they're imperceptible. Are they really? Seems to me Professor X and Jean Grey always had their hands up on their temples with a look of concentration as waves of concentrated mental energy emanated from them.

 

Even if they are, should that same logic not have been applied to Telekinesis - which, when we think of the word, is equated to what the system has come to call psychokinesis?

 

There is no reason for Telekinesis to be Indirect by default, and at no cost. STR costs 10 points for +10 STR and 15 points for +10 TK. Blast costs 15 points for 3d6 or 10 points for 3d6 if we remove its Range. That's the value of Range. So apply it consistently, and don't provide TK with extra freebies beyond its automatic abilities as a constant power.

 

Barrier is a separate (one you and I are discussing on a separate thread), but I rarely saw anyone use Force Wall. As such, I conclude it was overpriced for its effects, and a change to reduce the cost of the effect was overdue. Perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, but I really haven't seen it. Certainly not to the extent mental blasts would be overpowered if we allowed mentalists to leverage their invisibility and LoS range by adding Tunnelling and X-Ray Vision.

 

I had a monstrously effective Force Wall character - with TK, funnily enough. He had a Physical only personal FW, transparent to Energy, and that made it tough enough that it was rarely breached, defined as 'Kinetic Absorbtion' or some such hokum. I self regulate when I come up with something that works too well though.

[Markdoc]

Re: Can be used as...

 

So what if you move the suit of armour you are wearing relative to you? It moves up in the air and that applies a force to you (as you are in it) and so you go up in the air because the force you apply to it does not have a reaction force. I'm not saying I think you SHOULD be able to do it with Hero TK' date=' I'm saying that is what no reaction to actions implies.[/quote']

 

The armour can't move relative to you because you are inside it. It's akin to a person trying to pick themselves up into the air by their own clothing. I can pick up a pair of shoes and lift them into the air ... but I can't do it if I am wearing them, no matter if I am strong enough to lift my own weight. I imagine TK works the same. I'm still not seeing a problem here (except inasmuch as we understand certain words differently)

 

cheers, Mark

[Martin2]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Has he ever suggested using Transform and/or Extradimensional Movement?

 

Well I have suggested transform as the game mechanics for some of his teleport SFX (equipment into its separate parts, screws from casings etc). Which I think is a logical step for his powers. His teleport SFX is sort of a extradimensional movement but I am not heading it down that route for staying in other dimensions.

 

He also has brought up time powers (basically Hiro from Heroes) but in his original concept he had no mention of getting his powers from time control so I have stopped that.

 

Why does Sean have these thoughts as well?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Why does Sean have these thoughts as well?

 

He and I are charter members of the SOPWSEDMTFE (which stands for Group of HERO System Players Who Frequently Make Silly Suggestions).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

The armour can't move relative to you because you are inside it. It's akin to a person trying to pick themselves up into the air by their own clothing. I can pick up a pair of shoes and lift them into the air ... but I can't do it if I am wearing them, no matter if I am strong enough to lift my own weight. I imagine TK works the same. I'm still not seeing a problem here (except inasmuch as we understand certain words differently)

 

cheers, Mark

 

That is because action/reaction applies, good old Newton Three. If it did not apply, then you most certainly COULD pick yourself up by lifting the armour you were wearing, or even just pick yourself up directly, because there would be no reaction force to the action force you apply.

 

There are no known examples of this, except for TK, apparently.

 

Here's one for you: a telekinetic Hero is sitting on one end of a seesaw, but telekinetics are unpopular and have no friends so he is not having much fun. Can he have some fun by using his HeroTK to push down on the other end of the seesaw, so that he goes up and down?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

He and I are charter members of the SOPWSEDMTFE (which stands for Group of HERO System Players Who Frequently Make Silly Suggestions).

 

You should see the t-shirts at our conventions: they only come in extra extra wide.