Sean Waters Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 So I am building this TK based character who can use TK (er, obviously) which includes the ability smack stuff, doing a normal attack based on TK STR. Cool. The vision I have for her is that she can form her TK into edges, doing Killing Attacks too. This is a points problem because it is all supposed to be the same power. I want her to be able to hold someone with the TK AND slap or stab them. I can not do it with a MP as if I switch to a KA then the TK goes away so she can not continue to hold on to stuff, and otherwise it is expensive for relatively limited advantage. So, whilst I do not usually resort to a new rule when I bump into something like this, it seems to me that it might actually be useful to have (in a similar way to 'Can be used as a different mode of movement'), 'Can be used as a Killing/Normal attack' +1/4. This would allow a power to be used as either a normal or killing attack based on the DC of damage it can do in the current mode, so a 60 point TK power could do 8d6 normal or 2 1/2 d6 killing. In many cases (as with the movement based advantage) it might be cheaper to simply buy a MP, but it seems it might have a niche that is not otherwise filled. I suppose you could even extend it to 'Can be used as a Flash/Drain/Entangle/Any attack power', but that may be more problematic. So, good idea or is there a more straightforward way to do it using the RAW that I am missing - without simply buying TK and a KA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Well, TK allows multiple 'limbs' to be active from the same power IF an extra Phase is spent creating the 'extra' and full END is spent on each one. It's an extension of the default 'arms' that STR gets for free. However, STR does not get a KA for free. My best suggestion is to just build a separate KA that is linked or unified with the TK. Far more straightforward and less complicated (and no custom advantages/limitations required). You've also illustrated a very good example of why really effective TK based characters like Green Lantern function best when their Framework Reserve/Pool is bigger than than the active points of any single power within it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think just buying a HKA, Ranged, Linked with TK should be enough. Another idea might be Martial Arts. You can use every maneuver your bought with points via TK. Having a Martial Arts maneuvers for Grab/Hold and Punch realy lowers the Endurance Cost. Putting a KA maneuver in there is not much of a problem from there. Overall it is as hyperman says: You can create an infinite amount of telekinetik "arm sets" (two arms each), but you have to maintain each group seperately. And createign one usually require an attack action. I think there is even a Multi Attack example for Grab, in wich the character grabs and holds multiple opponents one after the other. Grabbing someone or punching someone while you hold someone else is no problem, so it's mostly a "how do I make my TK Killing"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Several fixes to this situation. Brute force method: purchase a multipower that has a large enough pool to run both the TK and the Killing Attack simultaneously. Old Skool Champions method: simply purchase the blade tk manifestation as a hand killing attack with the ranged advantage (the advantage to this being that STR increases the damage...use TK str instead of normal str!) Outside the multipower and link it to the TK. Elegant method: this is 6th edition right? No damage limit right? Simply buy a Killing Strike martial maneuver thatt defaults to your TK as the normal element. TK can now do Killing Damage at 2DC +1DC for every 5pts in the TK STR! This is the method I would use. I've used it in the past and it works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Several fixes to this situation. Brute force method: purchase a multipower that has a large enough pool to run both the TK and the Killing Attack simultaneously. Old Skool Champions method: simply purchase the blade tk manifestation as a hand killing attack with the ranged advantage (the advantage to this being that STR increases the damage...use TK str instead of normal str!) Outside the multipower and link it to the TK. Elegant method: this is 6th edition right? No damage limit right? Simply buy a Killing Strike martial maneuver thatt defaults to your TK as the normal element. TK can now do Killing Damage at 2DC +1DC for every 5pts in the TK STR! This is the method I would use. I've used it in the past and it works great. Points 1 & 2 are correct but not #3. STR does not add to a Martial Killing Strike in 5e or 6e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I would say the best way to do this and maintain the flavor of the character would be to buy Martial Arts with TK element. Works really well and allows for what you need. Another option (I would not use) would be to just buy a second unified RKA linked to TK. ut I think the Martial Arts would be cooler as it demonstrates mastery in a way raw powers do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Points 1 & 2 are correct but not #3. STR does not add to a Martial Killing Strike in 5e or 6e. I think STR does add to the damage for a Killing Strike (MA Maneouvre), but Killing Strikes can not add to STR damage. (6.2.91) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... The problem with buying a separate power, which obviously works, is that you have a reverse synergy here: if you have a Blast and a RKA there is no problem sticking them in a MP, as you will only be using one at a time. TK, being a constant power that you can have (subject to END) have several instances of running simultaneously (as far as I know) works a bit differently as there are clear disadvantages to building that into a MP, notably, unless you have a big enough reserve to run both at the same time, you can only run one. The ability to form TK energy into bashing or cutting attacks adds utility but not enough to justify buying two full price primary attacks. The precedent is already there with the Second Movement Mode advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think STR does add to the damage for a Killing Strike (MA Maneouvre)' date=' but Killing Strikes can not add to STR damage. (6.2.91)[/quote'] NOPE. Reversing the order in which you add them changes nothing. from the HERO Games Rules FAQ: Do Martial Maneuvers that don’t add dice of damage — such as Killing Damage strikes, NND Strikes, Exert-based maneuvers, and so on — add damage to weapons? No. If the Maneuver doesn’t add DCs to an attack — if it allows the character to do a different type of damage than Normal (e.g., Killing or NND) — it’s not going to add to weapon damage at all. Its function isn’t to add, but to differentiate. That’s why weapons-based styles — Arnis, Fencing, Gatka, Kenjutsu, and the like — don’t have Killing Damage-based maneuvers, and why their NND maneuvers (like the Atemi Strike in Naginatajutsu) are expressed as straight damage, not a bonus to the weapon like the other Maneuvers. The only thing that can increase the base 2 DC of a Killing Strike is extra purchased 4 point Damage Classes (which cannot be limited in any way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... .. The precedent is already there with the Second Movement Mode advantage. Regarding the first part of your post please see my version of Green Lantern and his Power Ring's VPP (150 Pool with 90 active point limit on any single power). What precedent are you referring to exactly? The ability to trade one form of movement for another which is never simultaneous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I have always thought that there was a hole in the rules that needed fixed about the manipulation of powers. Obviously there is the Power skill that allows for stunts but that is not supposed to provide lasting tactical stratagems. I reckon that there is a need for an advantage or adder that would allow powers to be a bit more fluid in their use. So if this was the case then you might buy Fluid TK (+1/2??) that allows the game effects of the power to switch as long as the SFX was stable. Obviously such a power is more expensive than a bog standard one but it does provide a huge amount of flexibility. Using webshooters to block CCTVs etc, or this idea of having a TK power that can be used to move things about or to slice and dice them. I am not sure how this might fit, cost wise, by making both the TK and a killing attack with unified power limitation on it but my way may be more flexible while costing a tad more.... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sougen Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... One possible idea is to use a third and yet unmentioned power: Entangle. The idea for the tangle is that it must follow a Grab TK and then proceeds to 'tk hold' the person in place while you follow up with the Killing strike. A sufficiently large entangle can easily model the TK grab effect both cinematically and mechanically. The benefit being that it is naturally a 'simi-continuous power. While 'held', they would be subject to your TK Killing much the same way they would be if you grabbed them and then tried to stab them with a knife. The drawback could then be that the entangle MUST follow the TK grab and immediately goes away after you re-establish the TK on the target or any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Seriously? This is the same Sean Waters arguing against Megascale on another thread because we already have ways to achieve similar effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Seriously? This is the same Sean Waters arguing against Megascale on another thread because we already have ways to achieve similar effects? Hugh, hugh hugh! Have you not watched the man in action? You are not seriously expecting a consistent approach in matters such as this. Our dear friend posits points of discussion that he thinks may stimulate us to ponder the nature of things. He seeks to find the consensus that an adversarial approach might bring but he does not seek to find himself consistently on the same end of the argument. :-) Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... What precedent are you referring to exactly? The ability to trade one form of movement for another which is never simultaneous? I think he's referring to the advantage you can add to Flight allowing it to work as Swimming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... You could also have a Multipower with a TK slot bought as Persistant so that it would last after you switched slots to a Killing Attack. Or make the TK and KA slots variable so you could shift points between the two for either a stronger TK hold and weaker KA or vice-versa. As Hyper-Man pointed out, having an oversized pool would help here. Personally I like the Martial Arts approach, but I am a big MA fan and I realize it wouldn't be appropriate for all characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think he's referring to the advantage you can add to Flight allowing it to work as Swimming. Yep... got that part. Nothing in that advantage allows both forms of movement to be used in the same Phase. Sean is asking for an advantage to allow a character to use TK STR to hold a target and simultaneously stab them with a TK-based Killing Attack. I see no precedent that applies. Do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... You can already multi-attack with TK if you have several instances running. What I'm after is a way - by paying a reasonable cost - to modify the sort of damage done, of converting DCs of normal damage to killing damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... You can already multi-attack with TK if you have several instances running. What I'm after is a way - by paying a reasonable cost - to modify the sort of damage done' date=' of converting DCs of normal damage to killing damage.[/quote'] So say you come up with a fair cost for such an advantage. Wouldn't the reduction in total TK STR be equivalent to just purchasing the same amount of unadvantaged TK STR with a separate KA both as slots in a Framework (assuming the TK is already part of one to begin with)? If your method ends up being cheaper isn't that an argument against it being 'fairly' costed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Seriously? This is the same Sean Waters arguing against Megascale on another thread because we already have ways to achieve similar effects? I think Sean is attempting to get us to make his arguments for him on the other thread. If so, bad form Sean. I don't see the point. A very clear difference already exists between Megascale and the 5 point doubling rule. Megascale has a minimum scale of detail limitation built right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think Sean is attempting to get us to make his arguments for him on the other thread. If so' date=' bad form Sean. [/quote'] You are happy for the rules to be inconsistent, but not me? Anyway, this is more of a roundabout argument designed to explore the relationship between different types of damage as defined by Damage Class. I don't see the point. A very clear difference already exists between Megascale and the 5 point doubling rule. Megascale has a minimum scale of detail limitation built right in. You say that as if it is a good thing. 6.1.341 Example: Firewing as a MegaRange Blast 12d6 defined as 1m = 10 km. It has a Range of 600m (10m x Base Points), so his maximum range is 6,000 km if he uses MegaScale at its greatest effect. But he could hit someone 6,000m away by using MegaScale at the 1m = 10m scale, or hit someone 3,782 km away by using MegaScale at the 1m = 6,303m scale. If a target’s near him, he can use MegaScale at the personal scale, 1m = 1m. However, if he defines his Blast’s Range as any scale greater than 1m = 1m, making an attack with the Blast requires a Full Phase Action and halves his DCV. So, if the target is anything less than 10km away, Firewing can define 1m = (distance to target)m and ignore range modifiers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... So, if the target is anything less than 10km away, Firewing can define 1m = (distance to target)m and ignore range modifiers? There is that whole bit about perceiving a target too. Anyway, using Firewing (essentially Marvel's Firelord, a frickin' former herald of Galactus) isn't a strong example. He's supposed to be a spacefaring threat to starSHIPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Points 1 & 2 are correct but not #3. STR does not add to a Martial Killing Strike in 5e or 6e. I think STR does add to the damage for a Killing Strike (MA Maneouvre)' date=' but Killing Strikes can not add to STR damage. (6.2.91)[/quote'] I read the rules in the way that they do add: 6E2 91: "Rules regarding adding STR (as if to an HKA) and what defenses apply to Killing Damage apply to the damage done by a Killing Strike." HSMA, 94; Rules for building martia larts list K-Damage Element as "+3 points per +1 DC (Killing)" with a maximum of "+4 DC (Killing)" * HSMA 98: K-Damage Element: "If a Maneuver does Killing Damage instead of Normal Damage, additional damage costs +3 points per +1 DC, up to a maximum of +4 DC." and "The character’s STR adds to the Killing Damage following the usual rules for Adding Damage (6E2 99-102)." Chapions 6E, 209. Writeup of Green Dragon: "4 Knife Hand -2 +0 1d6+1 HKA (2½6 w/STR)" Chapions 6E 212. Pulsar Writeup: "4 Karate “Chop” -2 +0 ½d6 HKA (1d6+1 with STR)" That Flash and NND martial arts does not benefits from STR is true, but Killing Damage Martial Arts maneuver cleary add to STR (and weapon base damage). *the only difference between adding normal DC (capped at +4) and killing DC is the higehr price for DC if the attack does killing Damage. You could also have a Multipower with a TK slot bought as Persistant so that it would last after you switched slots to a Killing Attack. No, that would not work. Even persistent powers stop working once you switch slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... 6.1.341 Example: Firewing as a MegaRange Blast 12d6 defined as 1m = 10 km. It has a Range of 600m (10m x Base Points), so his maximum range is 6,000 km if he uses MegaScale at its greatest effect. But he could hit someone 6,000m away by using MegaScale at the 1m = 10m scale, or hit someone 3,782 km away by using MegaScale at the 1m = 6,303m scale. If a target’s near him, he can use MegaScale at the personal scale, 1m = 1m. However, if he defines his Blast’s Range as any scale greater than 1m = 1m, making an attack with the Blast requires a Full Phase Action and halves his DCV. So, if the target is anything less than 10km away, Firewing can define 1m = (distance to target)m and ignore range modifiers? Yes he can. As hyperman pointed out, he has to percieve the target as well: "Of course, if the character cannot perceive a target at MegaRange with a Targeting Sense, he’s at 0 OCV." Note that this blast has 135 Active Points (60*2.25). So it's hard to compare it to anything you will see on a Heroic character. And it takes a full phase and it drops his DCV to half. So he shouldn't do it if the target or his allies are close.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Re: Can be used as... ...#3. STR does not add to a Martial Killing Strike in 5e or 6e. My Bad. I was confusing this with the 5e (at least) rule that STR could at most double the base damage of a Martial Killing Strike and that Martial DC's were the only way to increase the base damage. I don't have a pdf of the 6e martial arts book handy to see if this has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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