Lucius Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Uh. That's still not making any sense to me. Applying force to the bar and having an reactive force applied to you - so you can pull yourself up. That I understand. Applying a force to the bar and having no reactive force means that nothing would be applied to you and so you couldn't pull yourself up. So far' date=' so good.[/quote'] Yes, the action and reaction principle is why you can do chin ups, or climb a rope. The same principle is why you can NOT lift yourself by your bootstraps. The force you apply is opposed by a reactive force that is equal and opposite and, in this case, the forces cancel out. If you can apply a force to which the action/reaction principle does NOT apply, you cannot lift yourself by applying a force to the bar or the rope. But by the same token, if you apply force to your bootstraps, there will NOT be an equal and opposite reaction - so there is no reason you should not be able to "lift yourself by your own bootstraps" in such a case. In my opinion, Telekinesis is another Power we can eliminate from the game. It should be either STR at Range (for abilities that should have that action/reaction connection to the body) or Flight, Usable as Attack, at Range (for those that don't, and with a Limitation if for some strange reason the ability is "other only." ) Lucius Alexander The palindromedary still likes Invisible Extra Limbs with Stretching, Does Not Cross Intervening Space, Indirect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Yes, the action and reaction principle is why you can do chin ups, or climb a rope. The same principle is why you can NOT lift yourself by your bootstraps. The force you apply is opposed by a reactive force that is equal and opposite and, in this case, the forces cancel out. If you can apply a force to which the action/reaction principle does NOT apply, you cannot lift yourself by applying a force to the bar or the rope. But by the same token, if you apply force to your bootstraps, there will NOT be an equal and opposite reaction - so there is no reason you should not be able to "lift yourself by your own bootstraps" in such a case. Simple test: you are in space, weightless. There is no opposing force. Grab your feet and lift. Going anywhere? No, didn't think so. Action/reaction assumes that you can apply force to something else and that something else can apply a force back. The whole "lifting yourself with TK inside armour" to me makes no more sense than trying to lift yourself by pushing at the inside of the armour with your hand. I'm honestly flummoxed as to why we seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. In the example I gave (lifting yourself on a bar) gravity was assumed. We have already established that the person is strong enough to lift themselves against gravity. Using your definitions, they should thus be able to grab their feet and hup! Away into the skies! (They'd look pretty funny flying though, and would presumably fall if they let go of their feet ) The problem with moving yourself with TK (as I see it) is that there is no feedback. Push down on the bar with your STR and you are lifted into the air (action/reaction). Push down on the bar with TK and you go nowhere. Push the suit of armour when you are outside it and you can move it away from yourself (or pull it towards you, for that matter). But you grab the entire thing. It's why you can lift a car instead of just tearing the fender off. If you are inside it, grabbing the entire thing and trying to move it away from you is akin to grabbing yourself and trying to move yourself. You can't. It looks like we have come to a point of mutual incomprehension and suggest gently that we leave it at that. In my opinion' date=' Telekinesis is another Power we can eliminate from the game. It should be either STR at Range (for abilities that should have that action/reaction connection to the body) or Flight, Usable as Attack, at Range (for those that don't, and with a Limitation if for some strange reason the ability is "other only." )[/quote'] I do agree with this, though. I don't see any real reason for TK to exist as anything more than an example build. In prior editions it was because of the whole "STR is undercosted" thing: STR at Range, no figured CHA was clearly superior to EB, which cost the same at a base level, so it wasn't a viable option. Now, I think it is. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Action/reaction arguments only apply to STR. Including STR with Stretching (even with the Does not Cross Interviening Space Advantage). All of which could fall under a telekinesis special effect. Since Telekinesis the HERO Power is defined as being reactionless it 'should' arguably allow the power's owner to lift himself. The ONLY reason HERO doesn't allow this is that the game designers foresaw exactly the kind of arguments going on in this thread and banned that particular combination from the beginning. It only applies to the HERO Power Telekinesis, not the special effect telekinesis. If you want to build a character with telekinesis powers who can Fly you must use the HERO Flight Power to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin2 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Action/reaction arguments only apply to STR. Including STR with Stretching (even with the Does not Cross Interviening Space Advantage). All of which could fall under a telekinesis special effect. Since Telekinesis the HERO Power is defined as being reactionless it 'should' arguably allow the power's owner to lift himself. The ONLY reason HERO doesn't allow this is that the game designers foresaw exactly the kind of arguments going on in this thread and banned that particular combination from the beginning. It only applies to the HERO Power Telekinesis, not the special effect telekinesis. If you want to build a character with telekinesis powers who can Fly you must use the HERO Flight Power to do so. Spot on Game balance guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Re: Can be used as... It looks like we have come to a point of mutual incomprehension and suggest gently that we leave it at that. Perhaps so, because I have no idea why you brought gravity into it; I wasn't talking about gravity at all. Lucius Alexander Nor was the palindromedary, as far as I can tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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