Can be used as...

[gojira]

Re: Can be used as...

 

just build a separate KA that is ... unified with the TK.

 

 

Didn't read the rest of the thread, but this is what I was going to suggest. A MP with a reserve large enough for any two powers works as well.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Two options

1) Buy the advantage avld (def resistance) on the TK and special effect is "killing attack"

2) Or just buy trigger on HKA

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

NOPE.

 

I do find the use of NOPE a bit peremptory and insulting. I'm not an idiot, appearances to the contrary

 

Reversing the order in which you add them changes nothing.

 

from the HERO Games Rules FAQ:

 

 

 

The only thing that can increase the base 2 DC of a Killing Strike is extra purchased 4 point Damage Classes (which cannot be limited in any way).

 

From the actual rules that I referenced in my original post:

 

KILLING STRIKE

...Rules regarding adding STR (as if to an (sic) HKA) and what defences apply to Killing Damage apply to the damage done by a Killing Strike.

That seems pretty clear. What you can not do is add DCs from a Killing Strike to a weapon element or normal attack but what you can do is add STR to increase the DCs of a Killing Strike Maneouvre. A strong martial artist can do more Killing Damage with the Killing Strike than a weak one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You say that as if it is a good thing.

 

6.1.341

Example: Firewing as a MegaRange Blast 12d6

defined as 1m = 10 km. It has a Range of 600m

(10m x Base Points), so his maximum range

is 6,000 km if he uses MegaScale at its greatest

effect. But he could hit someone 6,000m away

by using MegaScale at the 1m = 10m scale, or

hit someone 3,782 km away by using MegaScale

at the 1m = 6,303m scale. If a target’s near him,

he can use MegaScale at the personal scale, 1m

= 1m. However, if he defines his Blast’s Range

as any scale greater than 1m = 1m, making an

attack with the Blast requires a Full Phase Action

and halves his DCV.

 

So, if the target is anything less than 10km away, Firewing can define 1m = (distance to target)m and ignore range modifiers?

 

Yes he can. As hyperman pointed out, he has to percieve the target as well:

"Of course, if the character cannot perceive a target at MegaRange with a Targeting Sense, he’s at 0 OCV."

Note that this blast has 135 Active Points (60*2.25). So it's hard to compare it to anything you will see on a Heroic character. And it takes a full phase and it drops his DCV to half. So he shouldn't do it if the target or his allies are close....

 

For the same 135 points, he could have Line of Sight range for a +1/2 advantage on an 18d6 blast. Assuming he has the sight range to see his target, no range modifier applies. Or he can spend 90 points for the same 12d6 blast. He can spend the remaining 45 points on +90 PER to offset range modifiers on his normal sight, or +30 to offset modifiers for the sight group. +30 Telescopic is enough for a spy satellite to read a newspaper held by a commuter in Newark, so for the same price I get the much of the required perception as well. +30 gets me to just over 262 km with no range penalty, where that Megascale blast imposes an OCV penalty at only 80 km.

 

Plus, I don't have to use a full phase action and halve my DCV to attack someone at that distance. And with no effective range limit, if I can see further, I can target within that range.

 

How do I buy Sight with a range of Line of Sight?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can be used as...

 

This is the part where they give the GM all kinds of warnings about how letting people go nuts with the rules could break your campaign, and encourage him to say "No." I love this part!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

This is the part where they give the GM all kinds of warnings about how letting people go nuts with the rules could break your campaign' date=' and encourage him to say "No." I love this part![/quote']

 

We all love it, which is why it is repeated so often in the rules. Max the love.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

This is the part where they give the GM all kinds of warnings about how letting people go nuts with the rules could break your campaign' date=' and encourage him to say "No." I love this part![/quote']

 

I'm amazed how often "this ability is not expensive enough" actually boils down to "I don't want this ability in my game". There are two questions to ask here, in my view. The first is

"will this ability unbalance, or otherwise be a bad fit, in my game?" If the answer is yes, it's denied. It doesn't matter whether it would cost 3 points or 3,000 points. It's not suitable for this game, so you can't have it.

 

If the answer is no, then "what is a reasonable cost for the ability" becomes more relevant. How often will my character actually engage in combat from 200 km away, making this a useful ability? It seems like a character who never comes within 100 km of the rest of the group is not going to be a fun participant interacting with the campaign, but that gets me back to "This is a bad fit - ability wholesale denied". If it does fit the game, then combat must often take place from great distances, and this is no longer an impressive power, but a character tax imposed on anyone who wants to be able to participate in combat.

 

But then, I've never found megascale attack range to be all that useful in creating interesting constructs that add to the fun of the game. I'm sure someone else will have a concept where it's workable. That means the option should be in a rules set that strives to allow you to build any character you can imagine. If this is an interesting concept that adds to the fun of the game, the question of its value comes down to how much more useful this will be than just having standard range and blasting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

For the same 135 points, he could have Line of Sight range for a +1/2 advantage on an 18d6 blast. Assuming he has the sight range to see his target, no range modifier applies. Or he can spend 90 points for the same 12d6 blast. He can spend the remaining 45 points on +90 PER to offset range modifiers on his normal sight, or +30 to offset modifiers for the sight group. +30 Telescopic is enough for a spy satellite to read a newspaper held by a commuter in Newark, so for the same price I get the much of the required perception as well. +30 gets me to just over 262 km with no range penalty, where that Megascale blast imposes an OCV penalty at only 80 km.

 

Plus, I don't have to use a full phase action and halve my DCV to attack someone at that distance. And with no effective range limit, if I can see further, I can target within that range.

 

How do I buy Sight with a range of Line of Sight?

 

 

Well, Range for sight only is 5 points, so LOS range on that is another 2.

 

The thing is though that you have picked up on a point I may have made earlier, or at least thought about making: an effective attack with Megascale, or any combination of interesting modifiers that do not actually make an attack more damaging or more effective against defences is likely to be too expensive for a GM to allow anyway. You probably do not have many characters with 135 point attacks in a 400 point character game, because if you did you could have a 27d6 attack for the same cost, which is certainly unbalancing (given that you would need defences of over 60 to avoid being stunned even if you had 30 CON).

 

What that means in practice is that only attacks of that magnitude that are heavily limited in practice* are likely to be green lighted by the GM anyway, and are going to be mainly used as a credible threat by villains, where (if they are properly designed) the PCs have some way of avoiding them if. What that makes them is plot devices which, let us face it, you are probably not that bothered about the cost of anyway.

 

Am I arguing against myself? No. I'm making the point that when you are building something like this, the cost really does not matter, so why is it necessary to have a way to make it cheaper that is separate from the normal build costs for doing the same thing ESPECIALLY as MS is not really a single modifier anyway, it is a single table and three sets of rules that relate to Range, Movement and AoE that could easily and more neatly have been included in the Range/Movement/AoE rules.

 

What MS does allow is for incredibleness: Doctor Destroyer (or possibly Doc Democracy - I spilled coffee on the page) has a laser on the moon that can target stuff on Earth - if he can see it which, well, he can not unless he buys LOS for his Sight or something Telescopic or whatnot, which he is OBVIOUSLY going to do if he has a power that can hit stuff on Earth from the moon.

 

6.1.340:

Example: Dr. Destroyer builds an Ultralaser so

he can attack the Earth from his lunar base. He

buys this as an RKA 6d6 (normal range 900m)

with four levels of MegaRange (1m = 1,000 km;

+1¾). His cannon now has a range of 900,000

km, more than enough for the beam to reach the

Earth.

 

Now that costs at least 247 points. You are not going to build a character with that many points in an attack, at least not without liquoring up the GM first, and you are welcome to try, so long as you are buying.

 

Hang on, Sean, you are arguing against yourself again, Incredibleness is great. Fantastic. Incredible. You are not arguing against Incredibleness in a superhero game are you? No, of course not, I'm arguing against wasting column inches on specifying a different way of paying for something where the cost is an irrelevance anyway.

 

What MS can be used for is the sort of incredibleness that has Storm trapped in a metal shell by Doctor Doom (or possibly, Doc Democracy - I spilled coffee on that comic), to make a continent sized storm (small 's') that makes people go 'Incredible!'** and looks good in a comic panel BUT HAS NO ACTUAL EFFECT ON PLAY. It is just a cool thing to say. It is chops, or whatever it is I mean. You know. The point is that you can do this with a cheap power that you have added a lot of advantages to as a one shot, probably in a VPP because you are never likely to actually waste points on as it is never actually going to be used except in a comic book to make people go 'Incredible!' and we are not writing a comic book. Anyway, as demonstrated that sort of thing can be done without resorting to MS, and for a 'simply cool, not actually useful' power you can afford it even without MS.

 

So, I'm back to 'what does it actually add'?

 

Oh, and if someone is on The Moon shooting at someone on Earth (or even someone a mere 262 km away, unless, of course, they have the ability to travel 262 KM before you can pull the trigger) they can probably afford to take a full phase action, so that is an arbitrary/unnecessary rule that does not actually limit the power in practice.

 

 

*i.e. with actual limitations that really limit the power, not just a bunch of synergistically designed stuff that means that you probably are not going to suffer the limitations unless the GM really works it.

** Of course 'incredible means, literally, not credible, but that is another issue...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Actually, that is another point. Megascale range kind of makes other limitations, like, for example, focus, NOT A LIMITATION.

 

The only really good example I can think of where some sort of ridiculously long ranged and huge attack is probably needed in the system is when you are building spaceships that may have to fight each other in, you know, space, where distance tends to the extreme, and have you ever seen a spaceship built with any real consideration to what it costs? I'm looking at Book of The Empress. Istvatha V'han herself costs 1357 points and an imperial SCOUT ship is built on 1734 (before dividing by 5 as it is equipment). I'm back again to 'what does it add that we can not do or need to do at a lower cost?'.

 

A Nova Igniter, right - you'll like this - is a bomb that can destroy an entire solar system. Way cool. It uses megascale, sure, but do you know what it costs anyway? 11029 points.

 

11029 points.

 

That is AFTER limitations. Before limitations it costs 93,750. Oh yes. So, really, I'm back to this all being a plot device. I mean, really, we are simply ignoring cost anyway at that point, aren't we? The actual points are an irrelevance, so making it a bit cheaper is equally irrelevant.

 

All that really matters, given that Hero is a point system and that points are relatively balanced for characters in combat on a reasonably understandable and small scale. You do not need to know what a Nova Bomb costs. To be honest you do not even need to know what it does beyond 'Annihilates you if you are closer than 10 billion km when it goes off': it is a plot device, and the cost and even the build does not matter a jot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Am I ranting?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Perhaps a better question might be, if

 

It’s intended to allow characters to create interesting' date=' useful, and flavorful abilities (often non-combat ones), not to make it easy to build planet-destroying weapons for just a few points or to allow a character to travel anywhere he wants instantly.[/quote']

 

why are all the examples attack powers? Where are examples of these interesting, useful and flavourful abilities? Both text examples are attacks, as are two of the three power examples. The only other one is Flight, and this ability to create characters who can travel anywhere on earth in quick time (like Superman, the Flash or Dr. Fate) at a viable cost was, to me, a key reason for Megascale.

 

Now, I look at Supersonic Flight (20m Flight, MegaScale to 1 KM) costing 40 points, and I see two things. First, for the same cost, he could have an extra four noncombat doublings, so 640 meters per phase rather than 20 km per phase. He saved 25 points if we stuck to NCM doubling.

 

Second, he spent way too much. For 24 points, he could have Flight, 20m and Flight, 10m Megascale in a multipower. Sure, he flies half as fast in Megascale – who cares? If it’s an issue, make it 5 meters and 100 km (or 100 million km) Megascale.

 

Rather than ditch Megascale, perhaps we should ditch noncombat multiples. Seriously, is it worth 20 points to be able to fly at 640 meters per phase out of combat, instead of 20? Once combat ender, we pretty much travel at speed of plot anyway.

 

We can get rid of FTL as well (1 meter flying, 1,000 light years is a 6 point ability). Again, speed of plot.

 

But we WANT to stat all of this stuff out, so it goes in the book. We don’t want The Grim Ghost to be able to teleport anywhere on earth for free as background fluff, but we want it to carry a small cost since it’s not tactically useful. We Hero gamers are a schizophrenic bunch!

 

And, of course, gamers always look for the abuse - so we build exactly the powers we claim Megascale is not intended for, even in our example powers in the book.

 

Maybe the best support for separating this from the rest of the rules is so the potential for game balance issues can be better highlighted. Even in a game where wizards teleport, fly and throw fireballs, perhaps making these cover distances measured in km instead of meters is not in the spirit of the game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Damn your eyes for being Mr Reasonable, Neilson. Good points well made.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

With Adjustment powers you can buy the power to affect multiple things at once and:

 

6.1.142

At the GM’s option, if an Adjustment Power

also has the Variable Effect Advantage, buying

Expanded Effect at the “eight game elements

simultaneously” level (+3½) allows the character

to affect all game elements of the defined special

effect at once, even if there are more than eight of

them. For ease of reference you can write this as

Expanded Effect (+4).

 

Perhaps a solution would simply be to say that once you get to +4 (or the equivalent in adders for movement) the range/area/move can be anything you like (subject to...etc), as after that point it is all just impressive cinematography.

[Lucius]

Re: Can be used as...

 

What MS can be used for is the sort of incredibleness that has Storm trapped in a metal shell by Doctor Doom (or possibly, Doc Democracy - I spilled coffee on that comic), to make a continent sized storm (small 's') that makes people go 'Incredible!'** and looks good in a comic panel BUT HAS NO ACTUAL EFFECT ON PLAY. ...

 

But I can use Growth, Usable as Attack, Megascale, and make a continent sized Storm (big 'S') that makes people go "Beyond Incredible! Lucius outdoes himself as usual!"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Megascale Palindromedary

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

But I can use Growth, Usable as Attack, Megascale, and make a continent sized Storm (big 'S') that makes people go "Beyond Incredible! Lucius outdoes himself as usual!"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Megascale Palindromedary

 

You wouldn't be cross-threading now, would you? Bad Palindromedary!

[Lucius]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You wouldn't be cross-threading now' date=' would you? Bad Palindromedary![/quote']

 

No, I posted here before I ran into the reference in the other thread.

 

As far as I know, I was the first person ever to get the crazy idea of Megascaling Growth. Which doesn't mean someone else may not have thought of it independently.

 

I suspect I am the only one to write up a character with it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Megapalindromedary scale

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

No, I posted here before I ran into the reference in the other thread.

 

As far as I know, I was the first person ever to get the crazy idea of Megascaling Growth. Which doesn't mean someone else may not have thought of it independently.

 

I suspect I am the only one to write up a character with it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Megapalindromedary scale

 

Well I suppose it makes a snappy rejoinder to:

 

Does my *rs*# look big in this?

ZAAAAP!

It does now...

 

 

# Or *ss, for any Americans watching...

[Christopher]

Re: Can be used as...

 

What that means in practice is that only attacks of that magnitude that are heavily limited in practice* are likely to be green lighted by the GM anyway' date=' and are going to be mainly used as a credible threat by villains, where (if they are properly designed) the PCs have some way of avoiding them if. What that makes them is plot devices which, let us face it, you are probably not that bothered about the cost of anyway.[/quote']

Beign able to actually built the plot device (not just handwave it) has it's advantages. You know things like the Active Points, wich translates into the durability of the focus, how it interacts with Drain, etc...

 

why are all the examples attack powers? Where are examples of these interesting' date=' useful and flavourful abilities? Both text examples are attacks, as are two of the three power examples. The only other one is Flight, and this ability to create characters who can travel anywhere on earth in quick time (like Superman, the Flash or Dr. Fate) at a viable cost was, to me, a key reason for Megascale.[/quote']

The text also notes Sensors of Starships and the need to "percieve your targetpoint" with teleport.

 

Movement Powers

Sensory Powers

Attack Powers

Powers with area of effect

 

Those are the four things you can apply megascale to.

 

Now' date=' I look at Supersonic Flight (20m Flight, MegaScale to 1 KM) costing 40 points, and I see two things. First, for the same cost, he could have an extra four noncombat doublings, so 640 meters per phase rather than 20 km per phase. He saved 25 points if we stuck to NCM doubling.[/quote']

How do you come to 25 Point saving here?

20 m Flight

plus

4 Noncombat doublings

costs also 40 points, and only gives you 640m/Phase.

 

And for putting NCM on a normal Flight, keep the Endurance cost in mind. This 20m Flight, 32 times NCM costs 4 END even if he just uses combat movement (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/88473-Endurance-Costs-for-Movement-with-Adders-Followup)

 

Rather than ditch Megascale' date=' perhaps we should ditch noncombat multiples. Seriously, is it worth 20 points to be able to fly at 640 meters per phase out of combat, instead of 20? Once combat ender, we pretty much travel at speed of plot anyway. [/quote']

Again, NCM still has it's area: It's the "save" zone of speed to use with Move-by/Move through. Also NCM movement is likely less Vulnerably to Change Environment with negative Movement Modifiers.

 

1 m, Megascaled to 640m/Phase would be block by the slightes bit of Encumberance or a -1m CE.

 

But we WANT to stat all of this stuff out' date=' so it goes in the book. We don’t want The Grim Ghost to be able to teleport anywhere on earth for free as background fluff, but we want it to carry a small cost since it’s not tactically useful. We Hero gamers are a schizophrenic bunch![/quote']

As Background fluff? No Problem. But as a power that is regulary used in game? Sure it should carry a cost. So we know how hard it is to take away with Drain/CE.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can be used as...

 

A focus for a 300 active point power (or whatever) would have, what, 60 DEF, so it would be indestructible to normal attacks (if it is not an indestructible focus anyway), but I take your point

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

How do you come to 25 Point saving here?

20 m Flight

plus

4 Noncombat doublings

costs also 40 points, and only gives you 640m/Phase.

 

Should have spelled it out - sorry! 5 more doublings is 20.48 km per phase. The original power was 20 km per phase. 25 points for 5 more doublings.

 

And for putting NCM on a normal Flight' date=' keep the Endurance cost in mind. This 20m Flight, 32 times NCM costs 4 END even if he just uses combat movement (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/88473-Endurance-Costs-for-Movement-with-Adders-Followup)[/quote']

 

Where the Megascale advantage also increases END even if not used, but at least it's proportional. Fly 10 meters with 32x NCM, pay 6 END. Only 2 with +1 megascale. Another good reason for that Multipower.

 

1 m' date=' Megascaled to 640m/Phase would be block by the slightes bit of Encumberance or a -1m CE.[/quote']

 

My example wasn't 1 m, though. And that CE works mechanically, but I'm hard pressed to see why it works conceptually. The guy who can Teleport 5 meters can now Teleport 4 meters, but the guy who can teleport from here to Alpha Centauri is stuck.

[Christopher]

Re: Can be used as...

 

My example wasn't 1 m' date=' though. And that CE works mechanically, but I'm hard pressed to see why it works conceptually. The guy who can Teleport 5 meters can now Teleport 4 meters, but the guy who can teleport from here to Alpha Centauri is stuck.[/quote']

Let me tll you: Teleportign interstellar distance is really hard. And he choose the cheapest possible build for it, so it's logically the one easiest blocked/drained.

 

Think of it as a minor intereffernce:

The solid combat teleprot is hardly affected.

But the tricky superrange teleport is succeptible for interefrence and simply can't work even with that little bit of negative effects.

 

There is precedence for this in SciFi, especially Star Trek:

Areas blocked from Long Range Scanners*. Anything but optical scanners givign false/no readings*. "We need to get close the beam them out". "This works, as long was we don't get closer than X km/within optical range".

 

*okay, Those are propably built with Sense Affecting powers for that specific sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can be used as...

 

Let me tll you: Teleportign interstellar distance is really hard. And he choose the cheapest possible build for it' date=' so it's logically the one easiest blocked/drained.[/quote']

 

In my games, characters don't see their character sheets so they don't know which build would be cheaper. Immortality is not subject to Drains more often than Strength.

 

Think of it as a minor intereffernce:

The solid combat teleprot is hardly affected.

But the tricky superrange teleport is succeptible for interefrence and simply can't work even with that little bit of negative effects.

 

A more powerful version that transports light years instead of meters" does not seem like it would be more easily blocked.

 

There is precedence for this in SciFi, especially Star Trek:

Areas blocked from Long Range Scanners*. Anything but optical scanners givign false/no readings*.

 

Seems more like these areas are blocked from the type of scanning. We haven't seen too many characters who can see as far as a scanner with the naked eye.

 

"We need to get close the beam them out".

 

Getting close has generally meant the transporter can't lock on. Once we get close, the same Megascale teleport works just fine, so that 1" Megascale isn't actually suppressed. In the ST universe, we don't have short range teleportation as a comparative, do we?

[Lucius]

Re: Can be used as...

 

So' date=' good idea or is there a more straightforward way to do it using the RAW that I am missing - without simply buying TK [i']and [/i]a KA?

 

Given that a one pip Killing Attack costs 5 pts before Limitations, and (fully) converts any STR or TK backing it up into killing damage, I don't understand your refusal to resolve the issue by "simply buying TK and KA"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable as palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Can be used as...

 

In my games, characters don't see their character sheets so they don't know which build would be cheaper. Immortality is not subject to Drains more often than Strength.

[...]

A more powerful version that transports light years instead of meters" does not seem like it would be more easily blocked.

Let me answer this with Scotties Remark about the Transwarp drive:

"The more they overthink the Plumbing, the easier it is to just stop up the drain."

 

The cheaper the player builts a power (AP wise), the less endurance it will cost. But it will also be easier to attack by drains/supresses. The player knows this and can build accordingly.

I even think the vulnerability of Megascale vs. CE is a feature and building them with that in mind eleminates a lot of problems Megascale Movement (and Teleport in particular) can cause:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87856-how-to-block-a-teleporter

Just slap -1 m Teleport CE over the area (would not even be noticed with the combat teleport), and one danger for the story is eliminated.

 

Regardign the "not seeing sheets". I don't would put it beyond Tony Starks abilities to guess the stopping power (amoutn of dice) or Limitations on a Weapon (it only has 4 charges with that energy source) after seeing it used once. Character and Player are officially entiteled to know Limitations like Side Effect or Extra Endurance cost.

The same way I would not put it beyond the abilities of a teleporter or magician to figure out that this teleport power/teleport spell would be vulnerable for a little bit of CE (that wouldn't stop or even hinder the combat teleport).

 

Getting close has generally meant the transporter can't lock on. Once we get close' date=' the same Megascale teleport works just fine, so that 1" Megascale isn't actually suppressed. In the ST universe, we don't have short range teleportation as a comparative, do we?[/quote']

I would say they switched the "transport Platform" Multipower from one slot with High Megascale, to one with lower Megascale (but a more robust amount base meters) or even down to one with only combat movement (the version where they have to fly-by to get through). This also explains why the beamup time can varry so strongly (sometimes it's Megascale wiht it's extra time, sometimes not).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Can be used as...

 

You could also have a Multipower with a TK slot bought as Persistant so that it would last after you switched slots to a Killing Attack.

No, that would not work. Even persistent powers stop working once you switch slots.

 

Of course you are right. I meant Uncontrolled, not Persistant. My bad.