Martin2 Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Re: Can be used as... But would we so eagerly question why not Flash damage ( "I poke him in the eye/box his ears/pinch his nose with my TK")' date=' Drain damage ("I bruise him/hamstring him with my TK") or whatever other form of damage? No other power gets to choose between two types of damage - why should TK be an exception? And, if it should be, why should the other type of damage be restricted to killing? Why not NND ("I squeeze the air from his lungs") or AP ("I shape my TK into little pointy bits to get past his defenses")?[/quote'] Give him a TK VPP with a 0 phase change and no skill roll to change and you can do. It would be really expensive and everything would be focussed on the VPP with little to spend on other stuff. I have a player with a similar idea of Teleport. "I have a Teleport so I should be able to do that!!". So I have given him one (and broken all my own rules on active points for the players but with limitations with a few of my own I will try and keep it under control). So with a TK VPP to cover say 60 points active you could have a power that has enough STR to hold a weak opponent and enough killing / crushing attacks to kill someone slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Grab 'em: Telekinesis (40 STR) (60 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 48 Real Stab 'em: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (1 1/2d6 w/TK), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Increased Maximum Range (600m; +1/2), Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path can change with every use; +3/4) (49 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 39 Real What's expensive is all the Advantages to make it work like Telekinesis; Range, Indirect, and Increased Range to match that of the first power. Then again, I forgot to add Linked....also, you may want to go ahead and pay END on it. Lucius Alexander Unified Palindromedary Lucius I might be missing something, but why not just buy the Stab'em with 1D6 RKA Trigger (must hold victim) o phase 1/2 phase to reset (+1/4) unified (-1/4) act 19 real 15 points. (Of course you can increase damage as needed). THe way I think it should work, is that you use the TK to grab, and then next phase stab'em. I don't see the TK going away and you still have your killing attack. In other words, I don't see with my buld why you would need all the other adavantages to make the power act as "TK". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Ok, had my fun with Sean. =) Personally, I like the MP with a pool large enough for multiple slots solution, or a unified power limit. (TK was one area that actually made sense and worked well when modeled with an EC.) A lot of the discussion is interesting, but I personally like simpler builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Advantage: Can Be Abused As.... I'll see your Advantage and raise you... Perk: GM Permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Lucius I might be missing something, but why not just buy the Stab'em with 1D6 RKA Trigger (must hold victim) o phase 1/2 phase to reset (+1/4) unified (-1/4) act 19 real 15 points. (Of course you can increase damage as needed). THe way I think it should work, is that you use the TK to grab, and then next phase stab'em. I don't see the TK going away and you still have your killing attack. In other words, I don't see with my buld why you would need all the other adavantages to make the power act as "TK". I think the idea is that you need to buy all the advantages of TK in case the grab occurs behind a barrier that would otherwise stop a a 'normally direct' ranged attack. (example, TK grab around a barrier of some sort that can still be seen through). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... But would we so eagerly question why not Flash damage ( "I poke him in the eye/box his ears/pinch his nose with my TK")' date=' Drain damage ("I bruise him/hamstring him with my TK") or whatever other form of damage? No other power gets to choose between two types of damage - why should TK be an exception? And, if it should be, why should the other type of damage be restricted to killing? Why not NND ("I squeeze the air from his lungs") or AP ("I shape my TK into little pointy bits to get past his defenses")?[/quote'] I would be open to seeing how an attack could be used in other ways. I think there is a real issue with limiting real world intuition simply because the game says so. It results in frustrated players. I love the flexibility of HERO but that flexibility often makes me wonder why it is not flexible enough. I do think we are squeezing the final drops of gain out of an ancient rulebase. I do wonder if there is a better way to do this, and if there is, whether we would have to tear everything down and start from scratch. That would be a new game obviously and possibly would never pick up the old HERO crowd but I reckon most of us fossils will die off soon anyway... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Doc, I think the answer is found in two places. First, a more robust Power skill, and second the gradual conversion of many characters' power suites into VPP's to provide that vast flexibility the player envisions. I find SFX limited Cosmic VPP's with predefined slots a very effective means of simulating the character who has a vast array of uses for his fundamental powers. Add use of a Power skill to develop a new slot in the field (or just let the player add the occasional new slot on the fly, or dovetail that with the Pushing mechanics) and we have a very versatile character, at least within the parameters of his SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Doc' date=' I think the answer is found in two places. First, a more robust Power skill, and second the gradual conversion of many characters' power suites into VPP's to provide that vast flexibility the player envisions. I find SFX limited Cosmic VPP's with predefined slots a very effective means of simulating the character who has a vast array of uses for his fundamental powers. Add use of a Power skill to develop a new slot in the field (or just let the player add the occasional new slot on the fly, or dovetail that with the Pushing mechanics) and we have a very versatile character, at least within the parameters of his SFX.[/quote'] I do not disagree within the current framework of the rules we have. It is not however a hugely elegant solution and it almost immediately throws the ugliest side of the game in the face of the player. It is very possible to see huge time taken over detailing new powers etc with the VPP especially for players not hugely adept with the rules or with numbers. I want something that is more elegant in use at the table. (nothing much to ask for is it?? ) Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... So what would be more elegant, and appropriately costed? You could build a large Multipower. If we allow an advantage that says "and you can use it as other forms of attack", you will still need to stat out each of those other forms of attack, won't you? Either that will be done beforehand (just like a VPP with pre-defined slots) or at the table during game play (where the player must refigure the power during game time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I did say I needed a new ruleset. I want something with the utility of the VPP but has more elegant gameplay. Nothing in the current rules does it for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... TK Martial Arts actually sounds like a pretty elegant solution to me. From my reading, the Killing Strike would benefit from the TK Strength, so it covers that aspect, and improves the grappling maneuvers to boot. Ironically, it actually does cover the "poke somebody in the eye" (Martial Flash) and "squeeze air from lungs" (Nerve Strike) options that were mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I thought I might go back and ponder Sean's OP and maybe come up with a possible suggestion. Why not have the base TK power and then a separate "Telekinetic Tricks" Multipower? Different slots that would be Linked to the base TK. Say, the base TK is 30 STR. Your TK tricks slots might be Naked Adder: Fine Manipulation; +20 to TK Strength; +6d6 to the TK slap; 15" Flight; 2d6 RKA. That's how we'd do it with a brick. You want to be able to rend things with your STR? Add a slot to your Brick Tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Advantage: Can Be Abused As.... As a general rule, the fact that something can be abused doesn't bother me too much: especially if it takes an extreme effort to do so (continuous, uncontrollable, 0 END, NND, does body, that kind of thing). What bothers me are rules or suggestions that are abusive (or at least, significantly over-powered) in normal use. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Lucius I might be missing something, but why not just buy the Stab'em with 1D6 RKA Trigger (must hold victim) o phase 1/2 phase to reset (+1/4) unified (-1/4) act 19 real 15 points. (Of course you can increase damage as needed). THe way I think it should work, is that you use the TK to grab, and then next phase stab'em. I don't see the TK going away and you still have your killing attack. In other words, I don't see with my buld why you would need all the other adavantages to make the power act as "TK". Not a problem if they are seperate powers. Big problem if both powers are coming out of a multipower which is only big enough for one, or - as in Sean's example - you don't actually have a killing attack. The original question can (to me) be summed up as "I want to do killing damage but I don't want to buy a killing attack - can I add it with a minor advantage instead?" cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I do not disagree within the current framework of the rules we have. It is not however a hugely elegant solution and it almost immediately throws the ugliest side of the game in the face of the player. It is very possible to see huge time taken over detailing new powers etc with the VPP especially for players not hugely adept with the rules or with numbers. I want something that is more elegant in use at the table. (nothing much to ask for is it?? ) Doc The answer was the use of the word "predefined" in Hugh's post. I agree completely that reconfiguring VPPs on the fly is only for players well-versed with the rules. I don't have any of those. I haven't had for quite a long time. Yet I have PCs who use VPPs all the time, without problem. They simply have a list of powers they can call on, and over time that list expands, as they come up with "How about if I ..." In many cases, you can use a MP the same way, and I actually prefer that since set up is easier, but VPPs are an option for players who want a bit more flexibility. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... There is also the fact that it is possible, with no advantage, to use TK to grab someone and, while holding them, create another TK to do damage to the person currently immobilised. Multiple attack with one power as long as END paid for. If it is possible to use it to do normal damage then why not killing damage. That is the conundrum... There's no conundrum - we agree, as long as you can have both powers in play at once you can do this easily. A MP with variable slots would do the job elegantly as holding power (STR) is converted to stabbing edges (RKA). A VPP would do it. Buying two seperate powers, for that matter, would do it. However, wanting both powers at once, at full power for a minor advantage? Not just no, but hell, no! cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... The answer was the use of the word "predefined" in Hugh's post. I agree completely that reconfiguring VPPs on the fly is only for players well-versed with the rules. I don't have any of those. I haven't had for quite a long time. Yet I have PCs who use VPPs all the time' date=' without problem. They simply have a list of powers they can call on, and over time that list expands, as they come up with "How about if I ..." In many cases, you can use a MP the same way, and I actually prefer that since set up is easier, but VPPs are an option for players who want a bit more flexibility.[/quote'] There's a breakpoint where the Multipower has so many slots that a Cosmic VPP is actually cheaper, even if no additional slots are added. I'd have no problem with a character starting with a Multipower, then eventually converting to a VPP structure at that cost breakpoint. There's no conundrum - we agree, as long as you can have both powers in play at once you can do this easily. A MP with variable slots would do the job elegantly as holding power (STR) is converted to stabbing edges (RKA). A VPP would do it. Buying two seperate powers, for that matter, would do it. However, wanting both powers at once, at full power for a minor advantage? Not just no, but hell, no! Even the movement advantage "can also be used as" does not permit use of both forms of movement simultaneously. If we allow "TK may also be used as a killing attack" for +1/4, may I also purchase my +20 rDEF PD as May also be used for ED (+1/4), Power Defense (+1/4), Flash Defense (+1/4), Mental Defense (+1/4), Physical Damage Reduction (+1/4), Energy Damage Reduction (+1/4), DCV (+1/4) and (of course) extra STR to escape Grabs and TK (+1/4)? It seems like my Defensive Screen should be able to do all those things, so why do I have to pay full price instead of adding an advantage? I'll be paying 90 points! And if you buy that, can I instead buy +10 rDEF PD as May also be used for ED (+1/4), Power Defense (+1/4), Flash Defense (+1/4), Mental Defense (+1/4), Physical Damage Reduction (+1/4), Energy Damage Reduction (+1/4), DCV (+1/4) and (of course) extra STR to escape Grabs and TK (+1/4), PD (+1/4), ED (+1/4), Power Defense (+1/4), Flash Defense (+1/4), Mental Defense (+1/4), Physical Damage Reduction (+1/4), Energy Damage Reduction (+1/4), DCV (+1/4) and (of course) extra STR to escape Grabs and TK (+1/4)? They're all Constant powers, so why can't I buy 1 point of each and a slug of +1/4 advantages to make them usable over and over and over again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I'll see your Advantage and raise you... Perk: GM Permission. I've got you beat. Perk: GM Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wants Perk: Coffee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think the idea is that you need to buy all the advantages of TK in case the grab occurs behind a barrier that would otherwise stop a a 'normally direct' ranged attack. (example' date=' TK grab around a barrier of some sort that can still be seen through).[/quote'] Last night I came across Damage shield and really that is what I was going for instead of trigger. And at this point just rule that if the tk normally can affect the character then the KA can too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... on MA KA, the problem with the rule posted is that it is for weapons, I would say TK is just a version of STR, so would add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... However, wanting both powers at once, at full power for a minor advantage? Not just no, but hell, no! And yet there are times when SFX would indicate that there should be the potential. As I said, HERO sold itself to me on flexibility and it is the search for flexibility that is likely to result in me moving to another system (when I find it) where the answer to such a question will not be hell no! or no! Instead it will be more like yes,but... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... I think a key element here is that "Is it really that big of an advantage" Honestly I could justify the effect as a side effect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... And yet there are times when SFX would indicate that there should be the potential. As I said' date=' HERO sold itself to me on flexibility and it is the search for flexibility that is likely to result in me moving to another system (when I find it) where the answer to such a question will not be hell no! or no! Instead it will be more like yes,but...[/quote'] I think it is important to remember that Markdoc is not saying "hell, no, you can't do it", but "hell, no, you can't have an alternate build to the several legal builds which have already been presented so that it can be much cheaper and you can get more value from your points than the rest of the team". Where the SFX suggest the potential for a certain ability, Hero does not, in my view, say "Hell, No!". Instead, it says "Sure, your SFX justify that - build it and pay for it". I am sure there are also systems out there which say "Hell, yes - just take that for free". I prefer the system which says "Design it and pay a fair price" to the one that says "NO - that FX works like this every time", but also to the system that says "Take whatever your glib tongue, well-chosen SFX and persuasion of the GM will allow." Flexibility is important, but so is playability, a component of which is balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Re: Can be used as... Where the SFX suggest the potential for a certain ability' date=' Hero does not, in my view, say "Hell, No!". Instead, it says "Sure, your SFX justify that - build it and pay for it". [/quote'] So, in the game it says - hell no, save up and you'll be able to buy that at some point. We'll pretend you were always able to... That is the impression the game gets with that kind of thing. I know the answers to that kind of statement, I have deployed them with degrees of success in the past but I have seen hints of new game systems that provide more flexibility and do it while retaining coherence and fairness. I am beginning to see HERO as a creaky, old testament gaming system. I am looking to a new system, designed using the things game designers have learned over the past 30 years. HERO's roots still show strongly in the system and it is only recently I have begun to think that that is a bad thing. That is a testament to how good a design it was for its time. I am sure there are also systems out there which say "Hell' date=' yes - just take that for free". I prefer the system which says "Design it and pay a fair price" to the one that says "NO - that FX works like this every time", but also to the system that says "Take whatever your glib tongue, well-chosen SFX and persuasion of the GM will allow."[/quote'] And I would be with you in that choice, but that is not what I am suggesting. Some narrative systems, like HEROQUEST, are able to provide more flexibility but they do not provide enough SIM for me. I have played FATE games that also suggest greater flexibility. I think that in the next few years I will see the system that will be the HERO-killer for me - the system that I will routinely pick up to use in preference to HERO for the first time in over 25 years. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Re: Can be used as... And I would be with you in that choice, but that is not what I am suggesting. Some narrative systems, like HEROQUEST, are able to provide more flexibility but they do not provide enough SIM for me. I have played FATE games that also suggest greater flexibility. I think that in the next few years I will see the system that will be the HERO-killer for me - the system that I will routinely pick up to use in preference to HERO for the first time in over 25 years. Doc Possible, but I doubt it. There have been games that do what you suggest: you mention a couple, and there are plenty of others (including one I worked up, myself, with a friend ). But so far, the basic choice seems to come down to three approaches when it comes to what I consider a crucial aspect of gameplay: balance vs flexibility. Some games come down on the side of flexibility: you can do what seems reasonable, given your special effect (HEROQUEST stretched that out into weird fantasy territory where even your special effect was highly negotiable). The flaw in all of the published games so far (and in our own unpublished attempt ) that take this approach is that "reasonable" does not appear to be the same for any two people on the planet. As a result, you get a high degree of flexibility and a high degree of design choice, but very little control on balance and almost no SIM. A mature, well-balanced, group who is prepared for a little give and take can make a system like this work. That describes the sort of group you get after many years of play with other systems, so it's good for about 3% of gaming groups: it's a niche product in a niche market, which is why the designers of this sort of game pretty much all have day jobs . In every other situation, the game is likely to collapses into acrimonious argument by the second session, or the third, if you are really lucky and you spend the whole first session getting the characters to meet in a bar. Another approach is to go with a fixed mechanic, which can be applied to any special effect. There's no problem saying "My TK should be able to do killing damage" because all damage is abstracted, anyway. This approach clearly works: it's one of the core mechanics of 4E D&D, though it's not restricted to that game. It's simple, but the price you pay is low SIM value and low flexibility: a disintegrate spell may be described as "You fire a green ray from your wand. Whatever the emerald beam hits disappears in a puff of gray dust." but the actual mechanic is pretty much the same as hitting the target with a big sword, or for that matter, seizing it with your TK and stabbing it . This kind of game is the exact opposite of the first one: it has an easy entrance path, but most gamers will become eventually move on from a game where options are fairly limited by the simple core mechanics. The third option is the crunchy one we are discussing here. That gives you a high SIM value and decent balance, but middling flexibility. It gives you very high design flexibility but places hard limits on design power, in the interest of game balance. I don't see any games rule set as bridging all categories because the three approaches - despite the first glance - all take much the same approach. They are trying to balance flexibility and game balance. You can get more of one by skimping the other, but I honestly doubt it is possible to have both, because they are essentially opposite ends of the same spectrum. My own feeling is actually that Hero has gone too far towards balance and too far away from flexibility, but to change that meaningfully would require some fairly drastic rejigging, and we'd need to be clear up front that increasing flexibility would be at the cost of balance/out of the box playability. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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