Christopher Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... I have to agree that there's a conflict here' date=' though I think would subtract too much from the game to leave the roleplaying out of it entirely. (To be honest, I don't even like the "I try to blast him" stuff; in my [i']Challenge of the Super Friends[/i] games, characters had to make soliloquies in order to take actions.) That soudns like you want to force a certain behavior. Because those that cannot come up with a line, cannot act. I would not wonder if in such a game SPD tend to be relatively low - because you can't come up with enough stuff to act at SPD 8. And I am not good a comming up with a line on the spot, so I would propably sit around doing nothing all the time. I think the best way to resolve it is to turn it around. Rather than having the roleplaying affect the dice roll (such as getting a bonus for good roleplaying), instead let the dice roll affect the roleplaying; have your character say different things or behave differently, depending on whether the roll succeeded or failed. For example, if you roll Charm for a seduction attempt and blow it, then you come out with the "I'll let you polish my pistol" line and get slapped. If you succeed with the Charm roll, then even if the player's initial "seduction line" doesn't fit, you keep roleplaying (perhaps with the GM subtly guiding the player toward a more suitable exchange, based on how the target reacts) until you have portrayed an interaction that's more believable as a success. This is also my logical approach to this situation. Roll first, Describe/Roleplay later based on the roll. Most of the comic book action can just be done by describing a simple attack with Knockback more colorfully. For example: "He grabs and throws you into the rocks" or "he kicks you like a football" instead of "he punches you for x damage and y-meters knockback". With interaction it's a little bit more tricky, but it is still preferebale to "you can't use your skill, unless you as player have the skill". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted March 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... That soudns like you want to force a certain behavior. I did. I wanted behavior that matched the feel of the cartoon it was based on. Because those that cannot come up with a line' date=' cannot act. I would not wonder if in such a game SPD tend to be relatively low - because you can't come up with enough stuff to act at SPD 8.[/quote'] Superman and The Flash did tend to be the most challenging characters to play... And I am not good a comming up with a line on the spot' date=' so I would propably sit around doing nothing all the time.[/quote'] The biggest effect it had was to keep combat moving. Not because players lost a bunch of actions... but because they had to think in advance about what they were going to do the next time they had a Phase (precisely so they wouldn't have to come up with something to say "on the spot.") They couldn't fall into the pattern of waiting until their Phase came around to start thinking about what they wanted to do. They had to be following the game all along, and be ready when their Phase came around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 29, 2012 Report Share Posted March 29, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... ... in my Challenge of the Super Friends games, characters had to make soliloquies in order to take actions... Heh. Sounds like fun...wish I had been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... Next to Paint Your Wagon, this is my favorite musical. =) Totally off topic: My dad (1917-2001) used to buckle his knickerbockers below the knee after leaving the house. The idea was that, buckled above the knee (which was not cool in school), if you fell you would only ruin your knees. Whereas, if the knickerbockers were buckled below the knee (fashionably), then you put holes in the knickerbockers when you fell on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... the first sentence and the rest to not fit together. You say just roling persuasion is wrong, but would you accept "I try to hit him with my Blast." "Roll." "You hit and knock the guard out."? He has built a character that is good a seduction, despite himself being obviously not good at it. Obviously his character would have never said something such stupid. So actually taking such a failed pickup line as his characters words was totally out of character. Not only does this "you have to roleplay it" (as opposed to "you can to get a bonus, but don't screw up then") penalty his character, it creates a problem if the speech is a success but the roll is a total fail: You can either let the atempt fail, depiste the word being just right. Or let him succed, but wich in turn means that skills are totally worthless and your first statement in the last post was a direct lie. I think you may be taking my statements to be more absolute than I play them. I think good role playing should provide bonuses to the rolls, or penalties if it is really bad. Yes, the player can just make his Persuasion roll and it will work, but I would like to encourage more interaction than that. And most of the time if the player makes some inappropriate statement I don't immediately make them fail, I point it out and tell them that isn't likely to fly given the situation. If they persist in being boneheaded, well then I will penalize their roll (in the case of the pistol polisher I did mention that the NPC was not likely to react well to that, but the player had his character say it anyway). Combat rolls are a little different, because they tend to be much more repetative so it is hard to be creative with each attack or block. But I will grant Surprise Manuever bonuses for clever attacks, just like I would grant bonuses for a well-phrased argument on a Persuasion roll. To my thinking that just encourages more colorful gameplay which makes it more enjoyable for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... I just realized that Charm is not an Everyman Skill. I don't know exactly why I assumed it was (since its predecessor' date=' [i']Seduction[/i], wasn't either), but for some reason, I just assumed it was. Maybe because its definition expanded in 6E to include things like non-sexual attempts to befriend people. It was 2002 before I realized that BODY for vehicles costed 1 point instead of 2 as it did for characters. That was the case in 4th edition (1989) and maybe as far back as the original vehicle rules in Champions II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... Next to Paint Your Wagon, this is my favorite musical. =) It's a great movie, but mostly I like it for the character of Harold Hill. I kind of "collect" interesting personalities for reference purposes. It helps me to make interesting characters, recognize people archetypes in real life, and so forth. I made the reference in this context because Harold Hill is, imo, a classic exemplar of "social skills" and how useful they can be. He charms, persuades, lies, connives, seduces, impresses, orates, and gets what he wants by force of personality and manipulation of others...but ultimately he turns out to be a con man with a heart of gold in the end. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Derek Hiemforth thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... I made the reference in this context because Harold Hill is' date=' imo, a classic exemplar of "social skills" and how useful they can be. He charms, persuades, lies, connives, seduces, impresses, orates, and gets what he wants by force of personality and manipulation of others...but ultimately he turns out to be a con man with a heart of gold in the end.[/quote'] I think he is also a good example why roleplaying a proper Super-manipualtor is impossible. It simply requires knowledge of the human nature, that no non-manipulator has. It's basically the same as with super-science, except you can use "Manipulation-babble" for Manipulators the same way you can use "Techno-babble". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... I think he is also a good example why roleplaying a proper Super-manipulator is impossible. It simply requires knowledge of the human nature, that no non-manipulator has. It's basically the same as with super-science, except you can use "Manipulation-babble" for Manipulators the same way you can use "Techno-babble". In Warhammer I once played a Charlatan ["super-manipulator"][former Grave Robber, wannabe* Vampire Slayer] named Ichabod Wolfgang Von Darkmoor in "Death On The Reich". I've never read the adventure, so I can't say whether any of this is from it. The party booked passage on a medieval Germanic family's river boot & on it a child got sick. The Skin Game I proclaimed that I am A Doctor ["manipulation-babble"]. After a very convincing examination of everyone on board (having once been a Hospital Corpsman irl), I announced that the child was sick with The Chill ["manipulation-babble"] & that everyone was infected ["manipulation-babble"], but that I knew A Cure ["manipulation-babble"]. There were dice rolls. I concocted a snake oil elixir out of alcohol & garlic. Everybody had a bunch of it. The very next day the child was all better & nobody else was sick. The gold rolled in. At the end of the night the GM told everyone out of game that there was a vampire on the boat & I accidentally drove it away. *liked by the spellchecker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... That's hilarious! If that approach was adopted, none of the Interaction Skills would be Everyman except Acting... The existence of Channing Tatum proves to me that Acting is not an Everyman Skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... The existence of Channing Tatum proves to me that Acting is not an Everyman Skill. In "G.I. Joe: Rise of Cobra", the actor playing Snake Eyes was pretty good. Off-topic: Joseph Gordon-Levitt camped across the street from me Burning Man 2003. He was in Hypercube Camp. They had this box hanging on chains that you could climb into. It wasn't his idea, afaik. The inside of the box was mirrored & had a strobe light. Cool idea. In actuality it was a bit underwhelming. =P NSFW His GF at the time was smoking hot... boarding on fantastic, really [a solid 2 levels of Striking Appearance ]. I shamelessly talked to her (whatever her name was) more than him. Seriously, she was full on... well... Ah, the mind pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... Yeah...in classic Warhammer Fantasy getting into combat was practically suicidal, so the ability to dialogue into and out of things was pronouncedly more effective than in more combat oriented games where "just kill it" is the more expedient approach. The current version, the dice and card approach, social skill abilities are still very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... Yeah...in classic Warhammer Fantasy getting into combat was practically suicidal, so the ability to dialogue into and out of things was pronouncedly more effective than in more combat oriented games where "just kill it" is the more expedient approach. The current version, the dice and card approach, social skill abilities are still very useful. Yes, I liked that system (as litte as I know of it) as well. It integrates Social Conflict very well with Violent Conflict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Re: Well, look who just caught up... @Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: I loved the original, and I love the current. It's an excellent example of two very different mechanical takes expressing the same underlying concepts very well. The 2nd version in the middle by Green Ronin was decent as well and in particular had a more consistent magic system than the original, but over all i like the 1st and 3rd editions much better. I did loose conversions for both 1e and 2e to Fantasy HERO... As to 3e, I like the mechanics so much that it inspired me to adapt them to a Superhero context. WISH: Warhammer Inspired Super Heroes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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