Derek Hiemforth Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 A recent conversation with my cousin (and fellow longtime HERO player) got me thinking about this... Are the current means of handling Disarms unbalanced? For example, let's say we've got a couple of Fantasy warriors with STR 15, swordfighting Martial Arts, and a couple of Damage Classes. They're evenly matched. And yet, whichever of them lands a Disarm maneuver on the other one first basically wins the duel. Because the target's chance of resisting the Disarm with his STR is laughable (35 STR to Disarm; 15 to resist), and nothing about his skill helps him out at all (beyond not getting hit with it, which is kind of a non-answer, since "don't get hit with it" defends against everything). Does this seem odd to anyone else? Don't they teach swordfighters to hold on to their swords? The best workaround I've thought of so far would be to build an anti-Disarm ability with extra STR, only to resist Disarm. It just seems odd to me that (near as I can tell), there isn't anything like it in the system or in any of the supplements. For example, searching the PDFs of HERO System Martial Arts and HERO System Advanced Player's Guide doesn't find any hits for phrases like "resist disarm," "vs. disarm," "against disarm," and so on. Anyone know if I'm missing something? Or if my cousin and I are the only ones who think it seems odd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I want to remember reading somewhere that, as an option, you could let someone who have a Martial Disarm Maneuver use the bonus STR to defend against Disarms. Somewhere in 5Ed Ultimate MA ... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers That is odd. There's an anti-grab maneuver, so why not an anti-disarm one? Or possibly, Martial Disarm should just give you the Strength both for purposes of disarming and resisting disarming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I think the disarm is slanted towards the Supers genre where folks are disarmed with almost any excuse. Always struck me a little odd also in sword using genres. I houseruled the disarm maneuver defends with equal ST vs itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I like that workaround idea too: A character with a Disarm maneuver can use that maneuver's STR to resist Disarms against him as well. (With the rationale that if you know how to do it, you also know how to avoid it.) I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I want to remember reading somewhere that' date=' as an option, you could let someone who have a Martial Disarm Maneuver use the bonus STR to defend against Disarms. Somewhere in 5Ed Ultimate MA ... ?[/quote'] Ah, indeed it does! Good catch! Have rep... Two optional rules may apply to Disarms if the GM wishes. First, a character attacked with a Disarm while completely unaware of the attack only gets his Casual STR (half his normal STR) to resist the Disarm. Second, characters with Disarms can use the maneuver’s STR bonus to resist being Disarmed. This option prevents fencers and similar characters from constantly Disarming each other. I wonder why this bit isn't in HERO System Martial Arts for 6E... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers from UMA page 143, Two optional rules may apply to Disarms if the GM wishes. First, a character attacked with a Disarm while completely unaware of the attack only gets his Casual STR (half his normal STR) to resist the Disarm. Second, characters with Disarms can use the maneuver’s STR bonus to resist being Disarmed. This option prevents fencers and similar characters from constantly Disarming each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers Looks like we were typing simultaneously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I wonder why this bit isn't in HERO System Martial Arts for 6E... Ah! DUH! Steve tricked us by cleverly hiding it in plain sight in the core rules. Fourth, characters with Martial Maneuvers that involve Disarming opponents (such as Martial Disarm) can use the maneuver’s STR bonus to resist being Disarmed. This option prevents fencers and similar characters from constantly Disarming each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkenfresh Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers Derek, see also 5e Fantasy Hero page 155. It corroborates the text from UMA. Also consider that just because you are disarmed doesn't mean you've lost the fight. Let's first look at a simple duel. The disarmer has spent an attack action to disarm you. If the 1d3 roll comes up with a 1, the disarmee could pick up the weapon as a half phase action, otherwise it's a half phase action to move to it and a half phase to pick it back up. At worst, both parties have lost a single turn and at best, the disarmee still has a half phase action, he could even attack with it. Now when you add group dynamics, anything is possible. The disarmer makes your weapon go flying, then his ally goes and picks it up. That's just good teamwork and it should be awarded with a severe penalty to the disarmee. All in all, I think it's a fair system. PS: Also consider adding another option here. For two-handed weapons add +5 STR for resisting disarms. It's simply harder to do right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers Ah! DUH! Steve tricked us by cleverly hiding it in plain sight in the core rules. Hmm. That makes sense for Fantasy Hero and heroic games, but substantially decreases the actual limitation that an accessible focus has in games where you pay for equipment: if you can add 10+ STR for disarm purposes, it is harder to take that focus off you. There is also a point or two that may need clarification; presumably simply HAVING the Martial maneouvre is enough - you do not need to actually use it/abort to it to get the bonus. Also can you use extra damage classes, even if you have already used them in a maneouvre earlier in the same segment? I mean they work a bit like STR but they are not actually STR, and I doubt you could use your 'Escape' maneouvre bonus strength to resist a grab if you had already attacked that segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers I want to remember reading somewhere that' date=' as an option, you could let someone who have a Martial Disarm Maneuver use the bonus STR to defend against Disarms. Somewhere in 5Ed Ultimate MA ... ?[/quote'] I've read the samething and the same problem...where did I read that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers See upthread -- Derek did some digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers But you know Derek, the same arguement can be made for throws too. If I make my roll, I automatically throw you to the ground regardless of how good you are. (For realistic genres, this seems odd). And for anti-disarm, I came up once upon a time manuevers labeled Resists and I had a manuever that can be aborted to that resisted disarms. I believe I modeled it on the root manuever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers +10 STR 0 END Only to resist combat maneouvres that rely on STR v STR rolls -2(?) 15 Active points, 5 real points That is 5 points, which is not bad, and might be a better way to simulate from scratch, as it applies to all maneouvres (throw, grab, disarm). It is one of those things you don't think to buy until it happens to you. Remember the first time you were flashed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers About superheroic and disarm: Keep in mind that relative power levels are important. It is not wrong that Random mooks never manage to Disarm Green Arrow/Red Arrow/Speedy/the huntress. That is simply the difference in power level and they propably have some martial Arts that emphasises keeping your bow. But your average professor or Bow user won't be able to keep his weapon against a true brick or Martial Artist. Or able to use it when entangeled or grabbed. I've read the samething and the same problem...where did I read that? Derek already found it: 6E2 60. Right in the Core Rules description of the Disarm maneuver. But you know Derek' date=' the same arguement can be made for throws too. If I make my roll, I automatically throw you to the ground regardless of how good you are. (For realistic genres, this seems odd). And for anti-disarm, I came up once upon a time manuevers labeled Resists and I had a manuever that can be aborted to that resisted disarms. I believe I modeled it on the root manuever.[/quote'] I just opened HSMA and found note that there are "Additional Rules" for Throw in APG I 171 and HSMA 249. Note that for marital Arts, there is no difference between a Throw and a Trip - both are actually just the "Throw" maneuver basis (wich afaik can't be used to throw the target "far", only to get it to the ground). Afaik the only maneuver you can use to move something far away is the Standart Maneuver "Throw". There are multiple ways to resist throws in 6E2 83. Among them DI/heavy weight, Breakfall and Acrobatics. Two extremely common Skill for Martial Artists. And agaisnt characters, you need to Grab them first anyway (so the defense is grab defense). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers About superheroic and disarm: Keep in mind that relative power levels are important. It is not wrong that Random mooks never manage to Disarm Green Arrow/Red Arrow/Speedy/the huntress. That is simply the difference in power level and they propably have some martial Arts that emphasises keeping your bow. But your average professor or Bow user won't be able to keep his weapon against a true brick or Martial Artist. Or able to use it when entangeled or grabbed. Derek already found it: 6E2 60. Right in the Core Rules description of the Disarm maneuver. There are multiple ways to resist throws in 6E2 83. Among them DI/heavy weight, Breakfall and Acrobatics. Two extremely common Skill for Martial Artists. And agaisnt characters, you need to Grab them first anyway (so the defense is grab defense). As for DI/heavy weight, that was added in Ninja Hero 4th so as Alston stated, you don't have normals throwing around 700 lbs mecha. But technixcally you can throw anybody. And for breakfall and acrobatics, you still need to buy them and need to make a roll. Even if you buy clinging to resist throws, it still at a minimum requires a str vs str roll to resist. As I said, throws when hit, automatically succeed. This does lead into why I wouldn't allow martial disarms to resist disarms. Just about everything else requires a seperate skill. So I would build a resist disarm manuever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers Remember the first time you were flashed? Yeah, I was 10 and there was this creepy dude in the park wearing a trench coat in the miidle of summer. thanks for reminding me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 Re: Martial Arts Disarm maneuvers Yeah' date=' I was 10 and there was this creepy dude in the park wearing a trench coat in the miidle of summer. thanks for reminding me...[/quote'] Don't be sarky, or I'll do it again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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