Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

[Claire Redfield]

Magic has quite a few awesome worlds in which to play, as well as a huge variety of possible characters. Including Planeswalkers, who would be really fun characters to play, I think. Plus, I love me some Magic angels.

 

Have any of you ever used HERO to game in the MTG setting? If so, what kinds of templates and things did you use? What kinds of character options?

[The Main Man]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I have wanted to do a M:TG HERO campaign for years, but it's a little bit of a beast to tackle.

 

Obviously there is a charm to having a treasure trove of material to adapt, but one of the basic obstacles is in making a magic system that pays enough credence to the card game but which is workable and usable in HERO.

 

What does tapping into lands mean in HERO terms? A simple Endurance Reserve? Ambient, "environmental" END that can be tapped into by mages? Can certain END be tapped into depending on th the environment? In the card game, players tap into lands that they need, so what about scale? What is the power level of such a campaign?

 

Quite a few questions just be addressed for a M:TG HERO campaign.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I've thought about it, and it's fun to try to figure it out. I think an Endurance Reserve is the way to go, but I do like the idea of "environmental" Endurance, too. How would one go about doing that?

 

I'd figure that a lot of creatures, Planeswalkers included, have their own reserves of magic, but are skilled at channeling the powers of the various elements of the world in their environment. I'm not sure... I mean, Jace doesn't seem like he'd ever really use, say, the power of Swamps, but I wouldn't think he'd be powerless in a non-Island environment. Perhaps they carry that mana with them, or can call it from other realms?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Well, I would think the Planeswalkers are pretty Epic in their power level, though I haven't even tried to follow the Magic "story" at all.

 

So, I'd suggest a group that (whether it knows it or not) consist of agents of one Planeswalker being used against another.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Even Planeswalkers have to start somewhere, though. I think there's definitely room to play one at the beginning of his or her journey.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Keep in mind that there are also other non-land magic systems in use in the M:tG world as well. All those creatures with special abilities (the "Tims" in particular) are using magic without tapping lands.

 

But yeah, to do much more than port over a few of the critters, you'd need to identify what "tapping a land" means in Hero terms. Obviously, to cast some of the more powerful spells, you need more than one land, sometimes more than one land type, so it's not just a matter of what kind of "land" a caster is in at the time...he has to have some kind of link that works over distances. How does that work? And how long does it take a land to recharge after being tapped of its mana?

 

I'd be interested in seeing what other people think of the matter.

[The Main Man]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Good point. Then there are the non-lands that generate mana such as Llanowar Elves...

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Maybe each wizard has an endurance reserve. Casting spells must come from that reserve. Every wizard starts out with an Aid to Endurance Reserve to add 10 END and 10 REC, with no maximum. Every 10 END is like 1 mana in MT:G. So to cast higher level spells, a wizard will need to "charge up" first, similar to needing to play lands in MTG. The special effect here is the wizard is linking to a land in order to draw it's mana, but that link may only last for the duration of a single battle.

 

You could even have five different reserves, one for each color of mana. Hmm...

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

You could even have five different reserves' date=' one for each color of mana. Hmm...[/quote']

 

The REC for each Reserve would only work at full value in appropriate terrain. It would work at reduced (half?) value in terrain of an adjacent color, but not at all in terrain of the opposite color.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I like that idea, and it's something along the lines of what I was thinking, as well. Many creatures, or perhaps all of them, are formed of the elemental mana energies that compose the world. Magical beings, and especially something like Planeswalkers, draw upon the mana in various forms, and for various things. Perhaps along with END Reserves, there are things like VPPs or Multipowers (or just normal powers all with the same elemental theme) for each particular mana type?

 

I mean that each type of mana is biased toward specific types of effects. You don't drain life with Blue/Water mana, for example, and Black/Swamp mana heals through draining and necromantic effects. Each type has something at which it excels, and if the others can do it, it tends to be at much greater cost and/or lesser effect. You won't find White/Plains mana powering many necromantic effects, for example, and no one plays mind games better than Blue (hehe, especially with the deck I have).

 

Some Planeswalkers might be able to control different types of mana, but the price is either in power (splitting points between the different mana pools) or time, since it would take more time to power up a strong spell that draws equally on Swamp and Forest mana.

 

Does that make sense?

[Lucius]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Remember the Hero mantra: Reason from Effect.

 

What is the effect of "Land?"

 

They're called "land cards" but that's irrelevant. Specifically they're called forests, swamps, mountains, etc, and that's all irrelevant. The cards have pretty pictures of those named terrains, and that's still irrelevant. What matters, is, what they DO. That's the effect you reason from.

 

And in this case, the effect is basically that of an END Reserve. And yes, there would be up to five seperate Reserves for the five colors of mana. Spells would be powers defined as drawing from one color or another. "Land" is just a meaningless name; it does not have to be, nor generally speaking can it be, defended, or invaded, or occupied, nor does it effect movement, or visibility, nor does it have any other connection to the actual concept of "land" other than having a picture on the card.

 

If you want to simulate the struggle to "get the lands out" early in the battle so you can have mana for your spells (though I don't know why one would want to simulate that) I suggest pricing out a minimal END Reserve plus RECovery on a low Activation Roll, but the roll only need be made once; and requiring an action to activate. It cannot be bought bigger, but can be bought multiple times, but each instance must be activated as a seperate action.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Didn't Dr. Anomaly make a Palindromedary Magic card?

[Lucius]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

The REC for each Reserve would only work at full value in appropriate terrain. It would work at reduced (half?) value in terrain of an adjacent color' date=' but not at all in terrain of the opposite color.[/quote']

 

Granted, it's been twenty years since I've played.

 

But as I recall, if I have a swamp and a forest out, I don't have to declare that I'm "Standing" on one or the other to get a bonus or penalty. I can tap both equally.

 

Like I said, reason from effect. These aren't really "lands," they're not actual places one would go to, live in, stand on, etc. They're discrete packets of renewable power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary argues that Lucius Alexander's position is wrong-headed and people do not necessarily WANT to closely simulate the way Magic plays in a mechanical sense but rather would like to go for somethg with a "feel" and "flavor" like that evoked by the cards - perhaps even realizing that fictional universe in a way superior to how the cards themselves do it

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

And that's why I've always interpreted the Planeswalkers as being incredibly powerful, and the lands they "tap" are places in various planes that they control and therefore can draw upon for power/weapons/allies.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Well, yeah, they're definitely powerful — at the highest levels, you are summoning huge elemental forces and godlike beings to do battle for you. But lots of creatures in the various worlds of Magic have innate magical power, and I'm sure Planeswalkers are no different. Maybe a starting Planeswalker can still call forth energy from the various planes and elemental forces, but not that much energy. So no summoning huge dragons and angels and stuff to fight for you at "level 1", basically.

 

Remember the Hero mantra: Reason from Effect.

 

What is the effect of "Land?"

 

They're called "land cards" but that's irrelevant. Specifically they're called forests, swamps, mountains, etc, and that's all irrelevant. The cards have pretty pictures of those named terrains, and that's still irrelevant. What matters, is, what they DO. That's the effect you reason from.

 

Sure! And this is flavor, mostly, the land stuff. The elemental energies embodied in swamps reek with rot and death, while those of forest are verdant, full of life and growth.

 

And in this case' date=' the effect is basically that of an END Reserve. And yes, there would be up to five seperate Reserves for the five colors of mana. Spells would be powers defined as drawing from one color or another. "Land" is just a meaningless name; it does not have to be, nor generally speaking can it be, defended, or invaded, or occupied, nor does it effect movement, or visibility, nor does it have any other connection to the actual concept of "land" other than having a picture on the card.[/quote']

 

I like the idea quite a bit. END Reserves of five different colors; if your character can tap into multiple sources of mana, well, that's going to eat up more points, so you won't be as powerful as a more specialized mage. Works for me!

 

If you want to simulate the struggle to "get the lands out" early in the battle so you can have mana for your spells (though I don't know why one would want to simulate that) I suggest pricing out a minimal END Reserve plus RECovery on a low Activation Roll' date=' but the roll only need be made once; and requiring an action to activate. It cannot be bought bigger, but can be bought multiple times, but each instance must be activated as a seperate action.[/quote']

 

Cool way to model that, although I wouldn't personally want to simulate the mechanics of the card game exactly like that. More what they represent, what the fluff describes.

 

I think we're off to a great start, here! Even if I'd probably rather play an angel than a Planeswalker, but I'm sure there are a lot of similarities. ^_~

[The Main Man]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I agree with using different END Reserves for different mana and I like the idea of Activation Roll stimulating the drawing of a land card. That said, what about colorless mana or sources that grant you whatever color you want? That said, what about non-land sources of magic such as creatures, artifacts, or enchantments?

 

Other thoughts:

I think that all spells can be bought within a single Multipower to simulate a "deck."

 

What is the time scale of combat in M:TG? Can we assume a certain span for mechanical purposes?

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I think that creatures that have magic would be able to use that for various effects, just like Planeswalkers could, though perhaps more narrow in scope, depending on the creature's power. If the Planeswalker is drawing the power directly from some Elves, say, maybe it's a Transfer END or Drain or some kind?

 

Multipowers or VPPs for particularly powerful mages could work. And I'd figure the time scale could change from scene scene — one battle might feature a day-long struggle between archmagi and monsters, while another might last as long as the typical superhero fight.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Hmm. This is an interesting idea. I have not played much Magic but possibly enough to get an idea of what the basics are. In my opinion, the game Magic represents how the mages fight. You could have a reasonably standard fantasy game that differs only when the Mages actually battle.

 

There are several things you need to capture. One is the deck idea. It is important in a battle to have an idea of what is in your deck but there is a random element that you may wish to capture. Then there is how the various decks interact and how that has an effect on the Mage himself - I would presume that Mage battles would not necessarily be to the death but that there should be the risk of death involved.

 

Personally I would try to construct some kind of structure by which a mage can establish links to mana areas (forest, swamp etc) as well as gain links to summonable beings and knowledge of how to activate magical effects.

 

You could manage duels with cards etc that would evoke the feel of the card game or look for HERO alternatives.

 

In the vaguest possible terms, I see a large multipower. I see a reserve that is limited by how many connections to Mana-delivering-Lands have been established. As the duel porgresses the Mage can add to the reserve or activate available slots (though in each case there should be an 'activation' roll that decides what comes - you may get more mana or you may get access to another slot but probably you do not get to actively choose).

 

What is interesting is how certain things play out such as attacking summoned creatures (effectively closing down someone else's multipower slot) and how you decide someone has actually won. I think that there may be ways to bring INT and BODY into this, you limit the number of slots by the INT of the Mage and there could be a way of tying in BODY or STUN by staking those characteristics to put powers in play that are lost when the slot is lost. The mage would therefore collapse unconcious at the end or simply die if he has staked BODY instead of STUN.

 

I do not know enough about the mechanics to propose how this might occur but there should be enough people out there with detailed knowledge of both to extrapolate (I think)....

:-)

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Sure! And this is flavor, mostly, the land stuff. The elemental energies embodied in swamps reek with rot and death, while those of forest are verdant, full of life and growth.

 

Which I have a hard time grasping. Wetlands are if anything even more diverse and active hives of biological activity than woodlands. Flatlands don't strike me as inherently morally superior (or whatever you take "white" to mean) to other terrains. If I were looking for a "land" that represented "death" I would pick desert, or maybe tundra.

 

Perhaps the symbology just doesn't resonate with me. I'd go with the END Reserves and link them to the colors and forget the whole "land" association.

 

As for Powers that run on any color mana, that's an Advantage just like a Power that runs on either personal END or a Reserve, and something that gives colorless mana has Variable Special Effects.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Prismatic Palindromedary

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I agree with using different END Reserves for different mana and I like the idea of Activation Roll stimulating the drawing of a land card. That said, what about colorless mana or sources that grant you whatever color you want? That said, what about non-land sources of magic such as creatures, artifacts, or enchantments?

 

Other thoughts:

I think that all spells can be bought within a single Multipower to simulate a "deck."

 

What is the time scale of combat in M:TG? Can we assume a certain span for mechanical purposes?

 

If each color of mana is an END Reserve, then colorless mana would be its own END Reserve. Sources that grant different colors might be "variable special effect" sources. Without settling exactly how a regular land works, it'll be difficult to settle the multi-lands, etc.

 

As for time scale, I always pictured it as something lasting weeks or months. The wizards are mobilizing these huge armies across many terrain types...it's a war, more than a duel.

[Greywind]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

Every non-card interpretation so far nixes the "war" aspect. Creatures are summoned to defend and attack for the mage.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

As for time scale' date=' I always pictured it as something lasting weeks or months. The wizards are mobilizing these huge armies across many terrain types...it's a war, more than a duel.[/quote']

 

If we're treating it as a war, we could run it using the kingdom rules from The Ultimate Base. Suddenly the idea of getting mana from lands makes a lot more sense.

[Sougen]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

It has been awhile since I really looked into the 'storyline' of Magic and thus I could be a bit off, but I think it is important to remember that the duels between players (who are, btw, planes walkers) is suppose to take place over days, weeks, months, and even years. Every battle is its own representation of a LOTR's style adventure. The lands don't necessarily represent your personal strength or even give you strength, rather they represent the various connections and associations you have formed. Establishing connections in the deep forests allows one to better martial an Elf alliance who come with their own unique blend of forces. Likewise, by making packs with the under dark, one can better martial the forces of the undead or nigh dead.

 

Likewise, most of magic takes place on the same world. The planes are suppose to be representative of the various regions of the world. The true variety in the story comes from the extremly long arching nature of the world. There are, iirc, some alternate 'worlds' that various things dwell on, but it is largely the same location. I also think Urza and his Rival were the first true Planes walkers in the game (in the since of internal history of MTG), but I could be wrong once again.

 

Now with all that said, I think the best way to reason what is going on is to build planes walkers in much the same way we build the "benders" from Avatar. They have various internal associations with certain elements. Those associations then give rise to particular styles of ability. The big differences being that a Planes Walker can have more than one association and the existence of many major items of power. Urza is famous for the extreme number of magical / mystical items he possessed.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

I would make a clear distinction between Planeswalker Magic, which is epic, and Creature Magic, which normal people/beings can use.

 

So, Planeswalker Magic would be a single VPP that has the following limitations - Character must have learned or bound a spell to cast it and Character must possess the correct form of Mana to pay the End Cost. All Planeswalkers have this VPP, though power levels may vary. Each Planeswalker also has 1-5 End Reserves which are associated with the five colours. To cast a spell in their VPP the Planeswalker must draw Mana (End) from the appropriate End Reserve/s. I like the 10 End - 1 Mana idea. So, to cast a Green Spell with a Mana cost of 2 the Planeswalker would have to draw 20 End from his/her Green Mana End Reserve, assuming he/she has one. Colourless Mana/End can be drawn from any Mana Reserve.

 

As to how you fill your End/Mana Reserve. Certainly a Planeswalker must draw from a Land to get Mana. But remember, the deck is simply a simulation of the battle between Planeswalkers. These beings are not sitting in their tower, pulling out cards and saying 'Great! Now I have the right card I can draw power from this Island!' Instead they are reaching out across time and space and binding Lands, Spells and Creatures to their will.

 

I would suggest that reaching across the cosmos and binding these things is a Skill. Planeswalkers can make a Skill Roll, at a given time increment, to bind a Land to their will. Once a Land is successfully bound it can be used once every turn/increment to Recover End into the appropriate End/Mana Reserve. If the land is destroyed then it ceases to be usable. Of course, a Planeswalker must have an affinity for a particular Land before he/she can bind it, (in Magic terms, it must be in his/her deck), and will only be able to bind a finite number of lands, (just as there are only so many land cards in a deck).

 

Spells and Creatures could also have an associated Binding Skill. Once Bound, a Creature can be Summoned once and a Spell can be cast once. If a Planeswalker fails their Land Binding roll then they can still try one or both of their other Binding Skills or vice versa, but no matter how many successful rolls they make they can only Bind one thing (Land, Spell or Creature) per turn/increment. I don't know what time period in Hero would constitute a Turn in Magic.

 

If you want to keep the random element then you could say that it is not possible for a Planeswalker to specify what they are Binding. If they make the roll they get a randomly chosen Land or whatever from a list of available Lands.

 

Don't forget that this is just basic level mechanics we're dealing with here. Magic: The Gathering can do all kinds of things, there are creatures that can return from the dead, lands which can be tapped to give creatures powers, cards that steal other cards, cards that increase a Planeswalker's life force and all sorts.

 

Consider the vast amount of Body that a Planeswalke has compared to normal beings. A normal human or low powered creature with an average of 10 Body can be killed with a basic Planeswalker Spell costing 1 Mana e.g. a flame spell. That same flame spell would have to be cast on a Planeswalker 20 times to kill him/her. That's 200 points of Body or some kind of ablative defence right there.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

For me, and perhaps I'm in the minority (of one?), what I like about the idea is that multiple campaigns could represent a single contest between two high level planeswalkers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Gaming in the Magic: The Gathering setting

 

There's no reason to over think it. You can use a hybrid of both games.

 

Have your "Planeswalker" player(s) form an actual Magic deck using actual magic tournament rules...60 cards, no more than 4 of any one card, no banned cards.

 

On each of their phases the player draws a card as a free action, at the end of their phase the player must discard if over 7 as a free action...cards that manipulate this work as normal. Everything works as it normally does; there is a graveyard and so forth...

 

BUT...translate all magic effects that can affect other characters into HERO terms as needed for resolution.

 

As a free action a Planeswalker character can put a single Land into play per Phase. As a 1/2 phase action a Planeswalker character can play a card from their hand, or as a Full Phase action multiple cards from their hand, if they can pay for them with the mana they have available. Even if the character may be technically taking multiple actions in HERO terms, it is all considered to be equivalent to a single Multiple Power Attack. Interrupts / Instants that are not direct attacks can be aborted to. And so on.

 

Enchantments and Artifacts brought into play confer their benefits while in play, and are effectively Constant, or Continuous, or Persistent, as befits the nature of the effect.

 

"Summons" use a simplified version of the Summon power, but don't bother doing full write ups for every possible kind of creature that can be summoned. Treat them as automatons w/ no STUN to keep it easy. Rather than a full write up, just use a simple conversion of essential stats, such as:

 

Attack / Defense = OCV / DCV bonus +3

Attack = OCV bonus

Attack = # of D6 Killing, or 3 DC's as appropriate

Defense * 2 = rPD / rED

Defense * 3 = Body

 

Thus a 5/5 whatever would be 8 OCV / 8 DCV, do 5d6 Killing, have 10 rDEF, and 15 BODY

 

Summoned creatures have SPD equal to their summoner's, and DEX 10.

 

 

Translate any special abilities as one offs. The summoned creatures are completely loyal to their summoner, unless an individual card indicates otherwise.

 

 

Charge the character points based on a flat rate plus extra points for the number of Rares, Uncommons, and Commons they "know" or "own" and can potentially include in their decks.

 

This is just a numbers game; so it would depend on how many points your game is being run at...here I'm assuming 350 points starting; if you are going for lower points just dial the numbers down.

 

Unlock / Base cost: 50 points

 

Each Rare card the character "knows": 8 points

Each Uncommon card the character "knows": 4 points

Each Common card the character "knows": 2 points

Each Basic Land card the character "controls": 1 point

 

Joe the Planeswalker has 30 Basic Lands, 20 Commons, 16 Uncommons, and 16 Rares...this costs him:

 

30 Basic Land: 30 points

20 Commons: 40 points

16 Uncommons: 32 points

16 Rares: 128 points

 

plus, the 50 points to unlock this type of Magic system

 

total cost of ownership: 280 points

 

Each day a Planeswalker player can form a 60 card deck from their available cards (the cards their character has paid for) for their character to use that game day, and optionally a sideboard of up to 15 more cards. Each encounter their deck starts off "fresh" / reshuffled, and they can swap cards from their sideboard immediately before their first action in an encounter if they want to. If they run out of cards during an encounter, they can't use any more magic until their next encounter...but can still do other things with any other abilities they may have.

 

 

You may run into some cards that simply don't translate into HERO terms at all, but the majority should convert pretty easily...most of the effects can be fit on a small card after all. Assume 1 damage in magic terms = 1d6 killing or 3 DC in HERO terms.

 

 

 

Something like that.