Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

It is just a structure idea on how to represent a planetoids defenses.

 

The GM determines the numbers.

 

QM

[Christopher]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Doesn't the vault door have both a BODY score and PD/ED' date=' as well? I haven't looked at the rules for destroying objects just yet.[/quote']

Yes, they have all three. And at totally impractical levels at that:

16 PD, 24 ED, 9 Body.

Makes it really hard to do stunts like "ripping the door out of the wall" jsut with Strenght.

 

I... I am not sure what to do with that. O.o

Don't worry. That is normal with a Q.M. post.

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

That's about the (Megascale) size of it

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to target every parking meter simultaneously

 

Yeah, I didnt think of that, I feel : now

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Think about it that way: How often do SonGoku and C.O. survive or even block attacks taht "would destroy the planet"? Using the Megascale makes it that much easier.

Also keep in mind that if Area Of Effect destroys somethign it goes on beyond it.

 

It also depends on how the planet is built/handeled in your campaing. APG II has soem nice stuff regardign that:

A STR chart that includes planets (so you know what STR tractor beam you need).

And ideas about "attackign and Destroyign large objects", since the rules for Walls simply don't work taht well for that. It uses earth (1.37 x 10^20; asume 100% is just stone to make it easier) as a test-case:

1. Simple way: Multiply the Body by the number of times it has 1 m³. That gives earth 2.6 x 10^21 BODY so you only need a 7.4 x 10^20 dice of Killing Damage.

2. Take it as a wall. Add +1 Body for each "doubling" of the size relative to a 1m³ object. Earth needs 67 doublings, so it has 86 Body in total. That could make the planet to easy to destroy and raises some quesitons about Penetarting Attacks...

3. (the default) View every 1m³ as a seperate thing. Every 19 body you do to a mountain destroy 1m³. You can use area of effect/megascale to affect more "parts" of it at once. Also keep in mind that if a AOE destroys an object, it goes on beyond it. It was never really stopped and afaik the things behind the object don't even get the defense of the obstacle.

 

Now it should be clear why the choose it: The numbers are more manageable in the system. This is exactly what Megascale is there for: Bringing flavorfull but not gamebreaking abilities into a point range that simulates it usefullness. And allowign son goku/superman to survive attacks that destroy planets.

 

That reminds me, didnt we have a discussion one time that superman would need 400 STR or so ( i think it was 390 but it was a huge number) to lift the earth like he did in the old cartoons?

 

 

Note: Though, I do remember somewhere in the internet joking that it basically would appear as superman doing a handstand at the South Pole.

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

On average those dice to 35 Body. The chance to get less than 19 is pretty slim. Less than 10 is impossible.

Or you jsut use Standart Effect.

 

Less than 10? I could find a way. :

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Well, I have a better idea on doing something I never really thought of doing in game. (despite watching some dbz aside). I guess that is what I come here for though.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Well, there are Galaxars with VPPs of up to 500 active points, which means, in theory, they could destroy an Earth-sized planet(in at least some sense of the term "destroy"). It is something that should be within reach of both "space gods" and extremely advanced space empires.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I haven't stepped up to 6th yet, so this is all 5th ed perspective, but the planet busting rules have never sat right with me.

While I'm good with the Megascale attacks for WMD's thing, I think setting the damage at 10d6 is silly low for a substantial WMD, much less a planet killer. Nukes in 5th pretty well standardized out at 20d6K, which seems to fit what an attack of this sort "should" do. Part of my reasoning is based on the "Blowthrough" rules from UMA, to whit: If an attack does Body equal to double a barriers Body+Defense, the attack continues undiminished. An extension of the Casual Strength rules. This gives us a reasonable benchmark for "vaporized" rather than just destroyed. At 70 average Body, a 20d6K Megascale explosion Nuke vaporizes most of the things it should, and functionally kills the rest, whereas it'd be possible for a tank crewman to ride out a 10d6 planet killer hit with little or no personal damage.

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Hmm, interesting point.

 

Another thing, I started thinking how could all this apply to someone destroying planets in other ways. Prime example: When Unicron gets the munchies?

 

 

Note: Just noticed I said Prime example when talking about Unicron.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I tried crunching some numbers on this: (warning, half-arsed attempt to do math follows)

 

First I needed a "benchmark" for damage: I started by looking at the Boom_Table on the Atomic Rockets website.

 

It shows an energy of 8.4E5 joules for 1 stick of TNT; HS6E lists this as a 5d6 Normal Explosion. I'll ignore the explosion advantage for now.

 

How much energy does it take to add a DC? Let's say doubling the energy adds a DC; it's a standard Hero convention.

 

The "Boom Table" lists Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel orbiting the sun) as 2.9E31 joules.

 

How many doublings is that above the stick of TNT? Eighty-five! (rounded) So adding +85DC we get a 90DC normal attack.

 

We'll probably use a Killing Attack to destroy the Earth, so make that a 30D6 KA, Energy Explosion, Mega-Scaled.

 

That's waaay less expensive than 51D6, and a good bit more effective than 10D6.

 

 

FWIW, the Boom Table also has entries for the energy required to blow off Terra's crust, oceans, or atmosphere into space, or just melt/boil/vaporize them, which requires considerably less energy.

[Christopher]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

That reminds me' date=' didnt we have a discussion one time that superman would need 400 STR or so ( i think it was 390 but it was a huge number) to lift the earth like he did in the old cartoons?[/quote']

That is what APG II says as well. But then again we can jsut chalk it up to "awsome feat of plotdevice".

 

I haven't stepped up to 6th yet, so this is all 5th ed perspective, but the planet busting rules have never sat right with me.

While I'm good with the Megascale attacks for WMD's thing, I think setting the damage at 10d6 is silly low for a substantial WMD, much less a planet killer. Nukes in 5th pretty well standardized out at 20d6K, which seems to fit what an attack of this sort "should" do. Part of my reasoning is based on the "Blowthrough" rules from UMA, to whit: If an attack does Body equal to double a barriers Body+Defense, the attack continues undiminished.

Take a look at Area of Effect:

"Area Of Effect attacks completely fill the affected area. There are no “shadows” created by obstacles that a target could take shelter behind." So unless you sit in a complete bunker you won't survive a 10d6 Blast either way - no Blowthrough needed.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I tried crunching some numbers on this: (warning, half-arsed attempt to do math follows)

 

First I needed a "benchmark" for damage: I started by looking at the Boom_Table on the Atomic Rockets website.

 

It shows an energy of 8.4E5 joules for 1 stick of TNT; HS6E lists this as a 5d6 Normal Explosion. I'll ignore the explosion advantage for now.

 

How much energy does it take to add a DC? Let's say doubling the energy adds a DC; it's a standard Hero convention.

 

The "Boom Table" lists Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel orbiting the sun) as 2.9E31 joules.

 

How many doublings is that above the stick of TNT? Eighty-five! (rounded) So adding +85DC we get a 90DC normal attack.

 

We'll probably use a Killing Attack to destroy the Earth, so make that a 30D6 KA, Energy Explosion, Mega-Scaled.

 

That's waaay less expensive than 51D6, and a good bit more effective than 10D6.

 

 

FWIW, the Boom Table also has entries for the energy required to blow off Terra's crust, oceans, or atmosphere into space, or just melt/boil/vaporize them, which requires considerably less energy.

 

The Boom table is one of my go-to places as well (hell, Nyrath's whole site is, but I digress).

 

Excellent breakdown, and I concur with your results.

A better example of Reasoning by Effect, broken down into simple steps, has seldom been seen by reliable witnesses

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

That is what APG II says as well. But then again we can jsut chalk it up to "awsome feat of plotdevice".

 

 

Take a look at Area of Effect:

"Area Of Effect attacks completely fill the affected area. There are no “shadows” created by obstacles that a target could take shelter behind." So unless you sit in a complete bunker you won't survive a 10d6 Blast either way - no Blowthrough needed.

 

Most of the time when discussing this sort of thing I'm looking at it from the perspective that taking the "Real weapon" limit means they have to follow the laws of physics... that and the whole "subject to common and dramatic sense".

 

not to say I don't want it both ways... if my planet buster is a weapon that creates a singularity, I want to be able to build it with an AOE that is equally effective through kilometers of solid rock.

 

And you really don't want to get me started on the lack of secondary effects... attacks of this sort should actually do more damage from the side effects than from the damage. A 30d6 Megascale AOE line punching a 100 km wide hole through the center of our planet would cause all manner of problems even if you were on the rest of the globe outside the immediate AOE

[Christopher]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

Most of the time when discussing this sort of thing I'm looking at it from the perspective that taking the "Real weapon" limit means they have to follow the laws of physics... that and the whole "subject to common and dramatic sense".

Windows (1 normal ED/PD). Flamewave. It's always the weakspots that get ya...

 

if my planet buster is a weapon that creates a singularity' date=' I want to be able to build it with an AOE that is equally effective through kilometers of solid rock.[/quote']

Solar Plasma. Black Holes. Mater Eater Lad's byte - this kind of stuff is usually best built using one or two levels of Penetrating. The and the two really only for the Black Holes.

 

And you really don't want to get me started on the lack of secondary effects... attacks of this sort should actually do more damage from the side effects than from the damage. A 30d6 Megascale AOE line punching a 100 km wide hole through the center of our planet would cause all manner of problems even if you were on the rest of the globe outside the immediate AOE

That is just like shooting a hole into the spaceship or shooting down the load on the Krane.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I tried crunching some numbers on this: (warning, half-arsed attempt to do math follows)

 

First I needed a "benchmark" for damage: I started by looking at the Boom_Table on the Atomic Rockets website.

 

It shows an energy of 8.4E5 joules for 1 stick of TNT; HS6E lists this as a 5d6 Normal Explosion. I'll ignore the explosion advantage for now.

 

How much energy does it take to add a DC? Let's say doubling the energy adds a DC; it's a standard Hero convention.

 

The "Boom Table" lists Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel orbiting the sun) as 2.9E31 joules.

 

How many doublings is that above the stick of TNT? Eighty-five! (rounded) So adding +85DC we get a 90DC normal attack.

 

We'll probably use a Killing Attack to destroy the Earth, so make that a 30D6 KA, Energy Explosion, Mega-Scaled.

 

That's waaay less expensive than 51D6, and a good bit more effective than 10D6.

 

 

FWIW, the Boom Table also has entries for the energy required to blow off Terra's crust, oceans, or atmosphere into space, or just melt/boil/vaporize them, which requires considerably less energy.

 

Very nice! 30D6 seems to pack more of a punch (naturally) than a 10D6 RKA, and while astronomically expensive (pun intended), still not as bad as 51D6. It also leaves room to grow as the characters get more powerful and can generate bigger blasts.

 

I wish I could do the grown-up math necessary to have figured that out on my own. Thank you! This will be a great starting point. I might put Frieza's first form a bit lower, say 24-25D6 RKA, or even a 20D6, and we could perhaps assume that Planet Vegeta was a bit small, or perhaps not completely vaporized.

[Christopher]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

It also leaves room to grow as the characters get more powerful and can generate bigger blasts.

10d6 KA itself is 150 Base Points. On top of that is has Area of Effect and serious Megascale (propably around +3 in total). So this attack still is around 450 Active Points. Wich means it needs 45 Endurance per Blast.

 

I don't see how, with such astronomical amounts of raw power, there is no room to grow with 10d6.

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I didn't mean there wasn't, just that a 30D6 RKA still leaves room to grow into the figures presented by 5E Star HERO and beyond, if needed.

[Lucius]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

In the good old days of 4th edition, I built a planet cracking missile on 5 pts....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary spares everyone an account of the "good old days" when munchkinism ruled by kicking Lucius Alexander into unconsciousness

[Claire Redfield]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

How the heck did you do that?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I tried crunching some numbers on this: (warning, half-arsed attempt to do math follows)

 

First I needed a "benchmark" for damage: I started by looking at the Boom_Table on the Atomic Rockets website.

 

It shows an energy of 8.4E5 joules for 1 stick of TNT; HS6E lists this as a 5d6 Normal Explosion. I'll ignore the explosion advantage for now.

 

How much energy does it take to add a DC? Let's say doubling the energy adds a DC; it's a standard Hero convention.

 

The "Boom Table" lists Energy required to blow up Terra (reduce to gravel orbiting the sun) as 2.9E31 joules.

 

How many doublings is that above the stick of TNT? Eighty-five! (rounded) So adding +85DC we get a 90DC normal attack.

 

We'll probably use a Killing Attack to destroy the Earth, so make that a 30D6 KA, Energy Explosion, Mega-Scaled.

 

That's waaay less expensive than 51D6, and a good bit more effective than 10D6.

 

 

FWIW, the Boom Table also has entries for the energy required to blow off Terra's crust, oceans, or atmosphere into space, or just melt/boil/vaporize them, which requires considerably less energy.

 

Incidentally, Big Bang Energy levels equate to about 70d6 KA or thereabouts. Of course, you have to megascale it to the Yottameters level...

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

How the heck did you do that?

 

Well, no matter how expensive something is in Hero, the second one is always +5pts; you can double anything for five points. (or get x4 for 10pts, x8 for 15pts, etc.)

[Lucius]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

How the heck did you do that?

 

For details, contact Dr. Max Mini of the Munchkin Institute of Emerald City

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'll buy a palindromedary, spend 30 pts to get 64 of them, then sell back the original palindromedary......

[SteveZilla]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

How the heck did you do that?

 

"Tricks".

[Badger]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

For details, contact Dr. Max Mini of the Munchkin Institute of Emerald City

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'll buy a palindromedary, spend 30 pts to get 64 of them, then sell back the original palindromedary......

 

I am so going to have to use Dr. Max Mini (or Dr. Mini Max) for growth/shrinking character some time or another.

[Lucius]

Re: Why the change in destroying planets between SH 5E and SH 6E?

 

I am so going to have to use Dr. Max Mini (or Dr. Mini Max) for growth/shrinking character some time or another.

 

For maximum munchkintude, apply Growth and Shrinking simultaneously

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Behold, the world's smallest giant palindromedary! Step right this way, and gaze upon the largest living specimen of the rare dwarf palindromedary!