AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I know we are talking about Blocking, but wasn't Dive for Cover created to leap out of the way of AoE attacks? That is not as convenient as a Block, but still effective.

 

That aside, a character can use Missile Deflection against an AoE if the sfx are appropriate (grenade, possibly a Molotov cocktail, and even a fireball if the GM rules that the ball is deflectable prior to the explosion).

 

As for blocking dragon's breath or a giant's fist with a shield, I don't think you can reasonably say that such a block would prevent the attack like a Block manuever, but rather it would reduce the damage, possibly enough that no damage was taken but not necessarily. In that case Christopher has the right idea, just buy a Multipower slot with extra defenses in it to represent the shield taking the brunt of the attack. (Although that does beg the question in a Heroic level game, how much defense does my warrior's shield provide when the dragon breathes on him?)

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

So you say that AOE is the way to make an attack unblockable.

 

But you also Wrote:

 

That doesn't adds up. The Cleanest way to make a attack Blockable, is to not make it Unblockable in the first place.

 

It does add up, because I wouldn't have built the small "giant's" attack as an AoE. From the size description that I thought I read, I would not consider that attacker to be large enough to justify an AoE attack based upon the SFX of having truly HUGE hands. Like you said (and I'm taking your word for it), you would need something on the order of eight size doublings.

 

Is that clearer?

 

 

 

However, now I'm rethinking things. I need to go review Block and digest this.... because why shouldn't a really strong character be able to Block a GIANT'S attempt to squish him? Imagine Hercules versus a Titan or the Cyclops or somesuch- foot comes down to stomp on him, he reaches up and catches it, and with much effort, prevents the foot from descending further, giving time for the little orphans to crawl out underneath to safety (Granted, "realistically" I might argue that sure Hercules is tough and strong enough to pull that off, put the dirt underneath him might not be, and thus he is shoved into the ground relatively unharmed.... but not so the children. Then again, we're all here to have fun, so that's a judgment call). Now, the attack WAS directed at Hercules- but he didn't just dodge it because it was an AoE and he didn't want the kids to get caught in the "blast."

 

 

Hmm.

 

 

Hmmm......

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

However' date=' now I'm rethinking things. I need to go review Block and digest this.... because why shouldn't a really strong character be able to Block a GIANT'S attempt to squish him? Imagine Hercules versus a Titan or the Cyclops or somesuch- foot comes down to stomp on him, he reaches up and catches it, and with much effort, prevents the foot from descending further, giving time for the little orphans to crawl out underneath to safety (Granted, "realistically" I might argue that sure Hercules is tough and strong enough to pull that off, put the dirt underneath him might not be, and thus he is shoved into the ground relatively unharmed.... but not so the children. Then again, we're all here to have fun, so that's a judgment call). Now, the attack WAS directed at Hercules- but he didn't just dodge it because it was an AoE and he didn't want the kids to get caught in the "blast."[/quote']

I think you still haven't quite udnerstood the difference between what you describe and Block.

 

When I block an attack with my Arm, Fist, Sword or whatever I do not ram my power directly agaisnt it. I do not try to negate all the power with my power. It try to delfect the attack or apply my force in an advantagous angle. That is about one of the first things I learned about parrying with swords: Never negate, always redirect.

If Block would involve negating ever bit of force in the enemies attack with an equal amount of energy head on, it would not cost 1 END for the entire Series (or 0 if you sue Martial Block).

 

What you talk about, taking the enemies attack head on and negating it with an equal or greater Force - that is called Interference. Maybe the giant trying to stomp on Herkules and him stopping the attack is even the Special effect of a Contest of Power between the two.

But it is absolutely certainly not a Block.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I think you still haven't quite udnerstood the difference between what you describe and Block.When I block an attack with my Arm' date=' Fist, Sword or whatever I do not ram my power directly agaisnt it. I do not try to negate all the power with my power. It try to delfect the attack or apply my force in an advantagous angle. That is about one of the first things I learned about parrying with swords: Never negate, always redirect.If Block would involve negating ever bit of force in the enemies attack with an equal amount of energy head on, it would not cost 1 END for the entire Series (or 0 if you sue Martial Block).What you talk about, taking the enemies attack head on and negating it with an equal or greater Force - that is called Interference. Maybe the giant trying to stomp on Herkules and him stopping the attack is even the Special effect of a Contest of Power between the two.But it is absolutely certainly not a Block.[/quote']Now you are applying SFX to the game mechanic called "Block". A Block does not have to be a real world block. It can be a brick character bracing for the impact, often called a "chin block" or the super martial artist catching a sword with his bare hand, stopping the sword in its tracks not redirecting it, which would definitely be using his STR (or power as you put it) to fully negate the incoming force. Block doesn't have a set SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I am a fan of building what you imagine in the first place, so can you not just build the AoE of the Giant's Club as 'non-selective' so you need to make individual attack rolls for everything in the AoE and the targets can individually respond? That way you can still block and dodge the attack. I might add some 2 point OCV levels as I imagine it will be difficult to dodge a tree trunk.

 

Can I also point out an odd rule. Even if you take 'no range' on your attack , you still have to roll to hit your AoE target point: if for some reason you fail to make the DCV 0 hit, the whole attack fails if you have No Range, as the attack can not scatter anywhere (6.1.320).

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

One other issue: even if you get a shield in the way, and it absorbs the majority of the impact, you are never going to stop a swinging tree trunk: imagine using a block against a 400 pound falling tree. How you play this is up to you, and you could use the 'a block is a name not a description' mantra, but I have never been a fan of that as it makes less and less sense the more you look at it. To me, a block is a deflection, even if it involves an element of getting out of the way too.

 

One way to 'do' this is to build your shields so that blocks using them have a limitation 'does not avoid KB from giant weapons'. So you block, take no direct damage, but still go flying.

 

Fun for all the family.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

One other issue: even if you get a shield in the way' date=' and it absorbs the majority of the impact, you are never going to stop a swinging tree trunk: imagine using a block against a 400 pound falling tree. How you play this is up to you, and you could use the 'a block is a name not a description' mantra, but I have never been a fan of that as it makes less and less sense the more you look at it. To me, a block is a deflection, even if it involves an element of getting out of the way too.One way to 'do' this is to build your shields so that blocks using them have a limitation 'does not avoid KB from giant weapons'. So you block, take no direct damage, but still go flying.Fun for all the family.[/quote']I've never liked the use of the Block manuever for what is described as a dodge, if for no other reason than a Block sets of Damage Shields. That being said, I think saying that it has to have the effect of "deflecting" is too limiting. What manuever would you use for the cinematic fist catch? It doesn't deflect the blow, it stops it dead. The headbut block where you duck so their fist catches the hard dome of your skull instead of your face? The martial artist's barehanded sword or arrow catch? The superhero catching the swung bus? Depending on campaign any of these and more could simply be the Block manuever and they all stop the force of the attack in its tracks, not deflect it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Would you allow a halfling to cinematically fist-catch a giant's punch as a sfx for block though? Or a martial artist to block a sword strike with his forehead?

 

To me, a block involves contact of some sort, but hero does not define how that works, so the suggestions I made above are valid, to the extent that they are a special effect - mind you if I saw that in a film, I'd probably not watch to the end, unless it was meant to be a spoof comedy. The disconnect comes when there seems to be a real imbalance between the power or deadliness of the attack and the method of deflecting it. The mechanics do not care but there is probably an inherent assumption that Peewee Herman will not be blocking a roundhouse kick from God.

 

I've thought of changing block so that the mechanics can reflect that imbalance: say a successful block acts as 2 levels of Damage Negation, with an option to increase the number of DN levels depending on the success of the block. If you block with a weapon or shield then the weapon or shield takes the damage (and gets the advantage of the DN). I never have, you understand, but I think of all kinds of stuff. That means that there is a real advantage to blocking with an object and it scales to the characters, at least to an extent.

 

Lovely.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Would you allow a halfling to cinematically fist-catch a giant's punch as a sfx for block though? Or a martial artist to block a sword strike with his forehead?

Probably not, but that is completely besides the point. "Chin Blocking" may work in some Superhero campaigns. Snatching an arrow out of the air might qualify as a Block in a Wuxia (sp?) game. Should the halfling be able to Block the giant at all, regardless of SFX? It all comes down to the game. I'm not saying that every possible SFX of a Block is appropriate for every campaign or genre. I'm saying that it is incorrect to define the manuever by real-world standards in a cinematic game system. I aggree that a Block involves contact. Mechanically speaking it does, as it sets off Damage Shields. I disaggree that that contact must be "deflecting" the blow.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Probably not' date=' but that is completely besides the point. "Chin Blocking" may work in some Superhero campaigns. Snatching an arrow out of the air might qualify as a Block in a Wuxia (sp?) game. Should the halfling be able to Block the giant at all, regardless of SFX? It all comes down to the game. I'm not saying that every possible SFX of a Block is appropriate for every campaign or genre. I'm saying that it is incorrect to define the manuever by real-world standards in a cinematic game system. I aggree that a Block involves contact. Mechanically speaking it does, as it sets off Damage Shields. I disaggree that that contact[i'] must [/i]be "deflecting" the blow.

 

The problem is that you are in sfx territory: the system does not differentiate between a naked warrior neck blocking an axe strike with his unprotected neck and Captain America shield blocking a tonfa strike (well, there may be OCV bonuses with the shield, but that is hardly the point). Common sense differentiates, but Hero doesn't.

 

Personally I would be reluctant to let someone block weapons whilst unarmed, without impressive penalties (and then they would be striking the arm that holds the weapon, not catching the blade), but I agree it depends on genre.

 

Having done a little bit of martial arts, inexpertly and irregularly, I'm pretty sure that blocks can accomplish their main intent - to prevent a solid hit - whilst still hurting the blocker. For simplicity, Hero does not go there.

 

One reason that I like to have a bit of certainty as to the mechanical basis of 'block' is this: if you allow a chin block (or equivalent) AND you allow a 'light touch that allows me to step out of the way' then you are doing quite different things. The first, logically, stops the attack. The second lets it move on by. This can have enormous in-game implications. If you CAN block the swinging tree truck that the giant is wielding then why not do it be stopping the attack dead, and saving all your buddies behind you?

 

What Hero does not do is say anything about what happens to a blocked attack - generally because it does not matter as it can not hit anything else - but there are cases where it is vital to know. Interestingly enough, I'm not sure if even another giant could technically block an AoE club swing, logical as it may be to allow it.

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I think you still haven't quite udnerstood the difference between what you describe and Block.

 

I promise you that I do, and I promise you that is (or rather CAN BE, there are often multiple yet equally valid ways of doing things in this system), a Block.

 

Bigbywolfe makes my points for me nicely, regarding the SFX.

 

 

I know that I would have a House Rule to effect of "barring truly unusual circumstances, a halfling cannot block a giant's attack." But I need to mull this over so that I can have a well thought out rule, as opposed to a mere inclination lacking fully articulated justification.

 

Edit: Maybe I would merely restrict the SFX of the Block. So, you chin blocks for the halfling against the giant. Perhaps that is the simple solution.

[Beast]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

For me

Diving for cover(out of the area) is your best defense that all can do

if you where protecting a child/normal and going for the interposing ,not a problem you take their hit

using a sword,spear,etc as a phalanx(waited move)against the giant hand could be a obvious deterrent(set vs charge move through)

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Now you are applying SFX to the game mechanic called "Block". A Block does not have to be a real world block. It can be a brick character bracing for the impact' date=' often called a "chin block" or the super martial artist catching a sword with his bare hand, stopping the sword in its tracks not redirecting it, which would definitely be using his STR (or power as you put it) to fully negate the incoming force. Block doesn't have a set SFX.[/quote']

I don't say it has a Set SFX. Is it does not has the "totally negate the attacks force" SFX.

 

I've never liked the use of the Block manuever for what is described as a dodge' date=' if for no other reason than a Block sets of Damage Shields.[/quote']

This is going to be a propbelm under the following situations:

The Character Blocks

The Character has a Damage Shield

The Attacker takes damage from the Damage Shield.

And the solution: Don't describe that specific successfull Block as "Dodging".

 

For theses thousands of heroic characters and 90% of the Superheroes without Damage Shields, Dodging as SFX for Block is not a problem at all.

 

That being said' date=' I think saying that it [b']has[/b] to have the effect of "deflecting" is too limiting. What manuever would you use for the cinematic fist catch? It doesn't deflect the blow, it stops it dead. The headbut block where you duck so their fist catches the hard dome of your skull instead of your face? The martial artist's barehanded sword or arrow catch? The superhero catching the swung bus? Depending on campaign any of these and more could simply be the Block manuever and they all stop the force of the attack in its tracks, not deflect it.

All of your examples have a important flaw: They only work if the Attacking force is that much weaker than the defending. Those are "I fight Mooks" Maneuvers, not "I fight equal or superoir opponents" Maneuvers.

400 point Superman bouncing 2d6 KA Bullets of his chest? Sure, good description.

Doing the same with a 4d6 KA or 12d6 Blast? Not really.

 

Alternatively they could not be block at all, but mearly descriptions of your defenses work. Combat Luck can be described as "catching arrows". As long as you don't have a bow, this description will have no game effect at all.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

The end of the fight between Superman and Atom seems to be a classical example of what you tend to get hung up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7jH8iVYUk

let's start at Minute 2:15:

Captain Atom attacks multiple times, then get's his hand caught, then punched into the wall.

 

What happenped behind the Scene:

Superman player has his phase on hold/will get a phase the same segment

Atoms player attacks. But he lacks the endurance to use his strenght or damaging power on nearly the nessesary powerlevel.

Supermans palyer is informed that the intesnity of the attack is very low (as per 6E1 125), so he decides to simply hold his phase, confident that he won't take any (relevant) damage.

Atoms player hits, but fails to do any damage or effect.

Supermans palyer counterattacks in the same Segment, some Atoms player can't abort (and propably lacks the endurance anyway).

 

The GM describes it as shown in the Movie (or Supermans player asks if he can describe it that way).

 

 

And before you come with "but it was Defenses that stopped the attack, so it can't be dscribed as missing/dodging", keep in mind that Combat Luck is defenses defined as not being hit/barely avoiding. It's the Power if you want "dodging so good it even works against Area of Effect".

As long as the end result is the same and what happened (rules wise) is clear to all, the description can be whatever fits the situation.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

For the halfing, I would allow the block, but he takes half damage. Fyi, allowing blocks to still take 1/2 damage is a suggestion in Ultimate Martial Artist 5th ed. And for genre, even though I think really strong characters couldn't be blocked by 'normal' martial artists, I would allow this for supers game. Think Grond (90 STR) vs Seeker (25 STR), now if Dragon Master (20 STR) was to block with some Chi based Yeng tao block, then I would allow a full block do to sfx.

 

Sean your right that purely by the rules a block is a block, however the way that Steve Long reiterated in 5th edition about every other paragraph about cinematic, realism, genre, etc. I believe that those considerations do trump the rules as written.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

 

Having done a little bit of martial arts, inexpertly and irregularly, I'm pretty sure that blocks can accomplish their main intent - to prevent a solid hit - whilst still hurting the blocker. For simplicity, Hero does not go there.

 

In some hard styles, if you block correctly, you'll hurt the person who tried to hit you. Of course in Hero to do that, you have to by some sort of trigger or damage shield.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

When I block an attack with my Arm, Fist, Sword or whatever I do not ram my power directly agaisnt it. I do not try to negate all the power with my power. It try to delfect the attack or apply my force in an advantagous angle. That is about one of the first things I learned about parrying with swords: Never negate, always redirect.

 

I don't doubt you've learn to 'block' this way. Most systems would call this a parry not a block, to differentiate between force on force and redirecting force. But I can tell you for a fact that Shotokan karate and Tae Kwon Do teach hard blocks. As in power vs power. Take a look at the lower x or cross block, whereas your arms cross forming a x and is used to stop a front snap or side kick.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I don't doubt you've learn to 'block' this way. Most systems would call this a parry not a block' date=' to differentiate between force on force and redirecting force. But I can tell you for a fact that Shotokan karate and Tae Kwon Do teach hard blocks. As in power vs power. Take a look at the lower x or cross block, whereas your arms cross forming a x and is used to stop a front snap or side kick.[/quote']

I thought about that and certain Sword maneuvers as well. My Solution:

Some attacks are built as Area of Effect, Accurate simply to avoid normal Defenses/Break Blocks. Interference or Dive for Cover are the only effective ways to protect yourself against those attacks. Of course that will only be important in a Martial Arts heavy campaign, for most others those Kicks are just Standart Martial Arts maneuvers and how the character Blocks them specifically is largely irrelevant.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Back to the OP's original question-how to block an area effect. Mechanically it comes donwn to no you can't use the block manuever to do it, but you can use powers with the sfx of blocking to do it. Since the OP mentioned shields, here are some ways that one can buy a power. (note these are pre-6th ed)

1) Armor defined as shield with focus and activation roll

2) Force field defined as block and appropriate limitations

3) Force Wall defined as block linked denfense manuever and appropriate limitations

 

Sample two and three though originally presented as barehanded blocks can of course be redefined as a shield. To protect others I'd imagine the use of usable by you and others or area effect one hex would be nice.

 

Lastly, I'm surprised that no one suggested the ever frowned upon but useful desolidification vs hand attcks. Now that would represent a block in the mechanical sense, because if used you don't take any effect whatsoever like a block. And I believe you would have to put trigger on it so you can 'abort' to it like a block.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Lastly' date=' I'm surprised that no one suggested the ever frowned upon but useful desolidification vs hand attcks. Now that would represent a block in the mechanical sense, because if used you don't take any effect whatsoever like a block. And I believe you would have to put trigger on it so you can 'abort' to it like a block.[/quote']

It's a tricky one, as Desolid is primarily a Movement Power.

While it does not Counts as Defensive Power for No Stun Cost increase/Adjustment powers, you can still abort to Desolidification.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Back to the OP's original question-how to block an area effect. Mechanically it comes donwn to no you can't use the block manuever to do it, but you can use powers with the sfx of blocking to do it. Since the OP mentioned shields, here are some ways that one can buy a power. (note these are pre-6th ed)

1) Armor defined as shield with focus and activation roll

2) Force field defined as block and appropriate limitations

3) Force Wall defined as block linked denfense manuever and appropriate limitations

 

Sample two and three though originally presented as barehanded blocks can of course be redefined as a shield. To protect others I'd imagine the use of usable by you and others or area effect one hex would be nice.

 

Lastly, I'm surprised that no one suggested the ever frowned upon but useful desolidification vs hand attcks. Now that would represent a block in the mechanical sense, because if used you don't take any effect whatsoever like a block. And I believe you would have to put trigger on it so you can 'abort' to it like a block.

 

The trouble is that the player does not know how the giant's club is built, whether it is AoE or extra OCV or something else. Equally the player may not know which power to use, and, as you note, to use powers as if they were a block gets a bit complicated, and expensive, build wise.

 

I would probably let the player roll with punch though - and tell them that. I still think the best way is to build the attack in a fashion that allows for interesting ideas. We are not talking about dodge here, but you technically can not dodge an AoE either, but I'd surely let someone leap over or under a swinging tree-trunk club, albeit at a penalty of some sort, and you can build that into the power.

 

I have already suggested above making the AoE 'non-selective' so that individual attack rolls have to be made for everyone int eh AoE and they can presumably individually dodge, block or whatever the attack as they see fit.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

We are not talking about dodge here' date=' but you technically can not dodge an AoE either, but I'd surely let someone leap over or under a swinging tree-trunk club, albeit at a penalty of some sort, and you can build that into the power.[/quote']

That sounds like the special effect for a dive for cover. Doesn't needs much against a small giants fist (exactly 1"/1m).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Sean, I might be confused but I thought that the op did know that the giants fist was an area effect and that the giant is a gm controlled character. As much as I agree with you and the non selectice on area effect or the accurate version by christopher, its out of the OP's hands to redefine the area effect, which is why I suggested the above to deal with said area effect. So it seems that the first step in all of this is that the op needs to talk to the gm his concerns on the stated problem and how does the gm says he needs to buy (or not). To deal with the giants fist. I.e. the gm could say - don,t worry about it I'll allow it with a dex roll to you should buy this ability as force wall with x,y, and z. Isn't hero grand ?

[Sean Waters]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

That sounds like the special effect for a dive for cover. Doesn't needs much against a small giants fist (exactly 1"/1m).

 

It could be, it could well be. Mind you you could often say the same of most dodges.