AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

[CptPatriot]

During a recent combat my party encountered a 18 ft giant with his AoE fists. While my shield-bearing Flag Suit Martial Artist didn't get to fight the giant, I was shocked when I found out my Captain America-wannabe could NOT block the attack.

 

(Look on page 6E2 57, it says you can't Block a HTH Combat attack bought with Area of Effect advantage, fellow Herophiles.)

 

I wanted to find a way the attack could indeed be blocked w/o resorting to house rules.

 

In order to stop that giant foot or hand from squishing my Cap-wannabe, do I need to also buy AoE on my STR, just to block AoE HTH attacks?

Am I over-thinking things?

 

Are there better ways to handle that contingency?

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

APG I 170 has interference.

Here you use your attack to counter antoher attack. it goes AP vs. AP and it works between different Powers (Negate a Drain with a Blast), as long as them Speicial effects are "countering" each other or are similar.

It especially works at Blocking Area of Effect attacks.

 

The only other ways are:

Barrier

Defenses built as "Blocking things with my shield

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Simply purchase Barrier with the SFX of your Faux-Cap's skill with the shield is so great he can use it to protect himself and those near him from Area of Effect attacks. You can limit it to Hand-to-Hand AoE attacks, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

I also think that AoE attacks being unblockable/indeflectable makes Area of Effect too powerful. It already has the capability of hitting multiple targets with a single attack roll and it has the side benefit of making the attack undodgeable as well. Adding unblockable/indeflectable to that list of benefits is over the top in my opinion. I believe that Indirect should be the advantage that makes an attack unblockable/indeflectable, not Area of Effect.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Simply purchase Barrier with the SFX of your Faux-Cap's skill with the shield is so great he can use it to protect himself and those near him from Area of Effect attacks. You can limit it to Hand-to-Hand AoE attacks, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

I also think that AoE attacks being unblockable/indeflectable makes Area of Effect too powerful. It already has the capability of hitting multiple targets with a single attack roll and it has the side benefit of making the attack undodgeable as well. Adding unblockable/indeflectable to that list of benefits is over the top in my opinion. I believe that Indirect should be the advantage that makes an attack unblockable/indeflectable, not Area of Effect.

But it also measn the attack wil ldo less damage, thanks to the advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Here's how I built Captain America's shield for 5e.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/70062-Super-Shield?p=1755237#post1755237

 

The Force Wall slot would be the one to use vs. the giant hand attack.

 

In 6e I would probably add a Damage Negation slot as well since it also reduces Knockback like a Barrier/Force Wall without automatically going down when the Body of the attack exceeds the Defense (and Body of a Barrier).

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I also think that AoE attacks being unblockable/indeflectable makes Area of Effect too powerful. It already has the capability of hitting multiple targets with a single attack roll and it has the side benefit of making the attack undodgeable as well. Adding unblockable/indeflectable to that list of benefits is over the top in my opinion. I believe that Indirect should be the advantage that makes an attack unblockable/indeflectable, not Area of Effect.

 

But Blocking it would make the attack essentially never happen, and completely negate the fact that the attack (logically) should still be able to hit the other targets who did not/could not block in the area of effect.

 

Is the issue that you can't Block it (and thus prevent the giant from attacking anyone with the AoE), or that you can't take shelter behind the shield?

 

Hm, what about the shield carrier interposing himself and his shield between the giant's fist and a cowering child.... How do the Interpose rules work with AoE? I'll have to review that......

[CptPatriot]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Is the issue that you can't Block it (and thus prevent the giant from attacking anyone with the AoE), or that you can't take shelter behind the shield?

 

Hm, what about the shield carrier interposing himself and his shield between the giant's fist and a cowering child.... How do the Interpose rules work with AoE? I'll have to review that......

 

I feel that since my shield approximately the same size(BTW Capt America's shield has about a 2.5 feet diameter) as an enlarged fist, the shield should be able to block it, but that plays with the special effects and at this point, I was looking at a game mechanic solution.

 

Your query about Interposing though has me thinking though. In movies/tv, where the hero uses a shield to protect himself from a dragon's breath weapon, like in Dragonslayer, the hero uses the shield as a barrier in the same way a modern cop might use their tactical shield to protect themselves from a Molotov Cocktail.

 

Maybe I need to remember that in Cap's case, the blocking is the special effect. Perhaps Barrier is the best way to handle it?

[mhd]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Of course this will only postpone the problem, but triple human size seems a bit low to justify AoE fists…

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I feel that since my shield approximately the same size(BTW Capt America's shield has about a 2.5 feet diameter) as an enlarged fist' date=' the shield should be able to block it, but that plays with the special effects and at this point, I was looking at a game mechanic solution.[/quote']

Just use Your Shield Bash HTH-Attack (that you hopefulyl have) and Interference Rules.

It might look like a Block, but it's closer to Son Goku Defelcting [World Killer Attack] with a Energy Blast.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Perhaps a simple Limitation on the Fist. "Can be Blocked, -1/2"? Personally I think a lot of AoE should have this (or similar) Limitation, especially a lot of Physical AoEs.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Perhaps a simple Limitation on the Fist. "Can be Blocked' date=' -1/2"? Personally I think a lot of AoE should have this (or similar) Limitation, especially a lot of Physical AoEs.[/quote']

I think we should just use the rules we already have and that are designed for these situations. If you put all those attacks on "can be blocked", they might become too easy to intercept.

Abort to Interference or Barrier* leaves you open for other HTH-Attacks for the same price. And you will be open to Ranged Attacks anyway.

 

*unless you englobe yourself, of course.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I thought applying Limitations to accurately represent something would be considered "reasoning from effect" and thus would be "use[ing] the rules we already have". If a particular ability should be AoE and should, in the eyes of the GM or designer or whatever, also be blockable, than why not build it that way? Why instead put the onus on the defender to have a specially built power using Barrier or something when you think it should be blockable anyway (presumably by anyone)? I like the Interference rules suggested in the APG, but I don't think they are widely used, or at least I've never seen them used, and many people don't use the APGs at all. Quite frankly, if you think a power should be able to be blocked it seems much simpler to me to just build a power that can be blocked...

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Building the (small) giant's attack with the Can Be Blocked Lim is the easiest, clearest, and probably most rules accurate path to dealing with this situation.

 

However, a truly GIANT hand.... a shield should not be able to Block it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Building the (small) giant's attack with the Can Be Blocked Lim is the easiest' date=' clearest, and probably most rules accurate path to dealing with this situation.However, a truly GIANT hand.... a shield should not be able to Block it.[/quote']Yup, and thus would not be built with that limitation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

But Blocking it would make the attack essentially never happen' date=' and completely negate the fact that the attack (logically) should still be able to hit the other targets who did not/could not block in the area of effect.[/quote']

 

Blocking an attack doesn't make it so the attack essentially never happens. It makes it so the attack does no damage to the intended target. (unless this has been changed in 6th? I'm not as familiar with the new rules changes as I am with previous editions) I remember designing a power based around Damage Shield that was essentially a swordsman's automatic counterattack. I asked Steve if a successful Block would prevent the Damage Shield from activating, and he said no, that the Damage Shield should still go off. The block only prevents the character from taking damage, thus it was still legal for the character to successfully block and still have the Damage Shield power activate.

 

The main problem I have with making Area of Effect automatically bypass Block is that I sort of see Block as a kind of barrier. It stops a hand to hand attack from doing damage to a character, much like hiding behind Cover, a shield (which is an augmented block) or a Barrier. Area of Effect attacks do not automatically bypass barriers and cover. Why then, do they automatically get to bypass a block? I have the same issue with Area of Effect and Missile Deflection. It shouldn't automatically bypass that either.

Now, I am not talking about a character that is caught in an area when an Area of Effect power goes off and they are struck as collateral. I'm talking about a character who is the intended target of an area of effect hand to hand attack. They get a chance to block. A character who is the intended target of a ranged Area of Effect power has a chance to missile deflect. A smart player or villian would start targeting the hexes near the character rather than the character him/herself. This gives the AoE power a chance to successfully reach its target hex and activate, hopefully hitting the target collaterally.

 

Can Dragon'sbreath be missile deflected or blocked? Not usually. The AoE starts at the Dragon's mouth. The target hex is the hex in front of the Dragon's snout and the AoE expands out from there. The attack has already successfully landed, so it can't be stopped except by a barrier or hard cover large enough to interfere with the expansion of the AoE. (I am OK with characters using larger shields as additional defense vs Dragon's breath. It's in genre and totally badass, so go for it!) Now, there is a precedent for Dragon's Breath being blockable, and that is if the character is right next to the Dragon's mouth as it begins to breath, the character could leap into the dragons mouth and shove his/her blocking aparatus (shield, weapon, fists...yuck) against the Dragon's firebreathing organ and "block" it.

 

I believe that the advantage Indirect is appropriate for attacks that can bypass blocks and missile deflection. This advantage makes it so an attack can come from an unexpected angle to take a target by surprise or unawares. This screams bypass block/MD to me. A laser that fires directly from the attacker to the target is deflectable. A laser with Indirect that rains down from the sky unexpectedly might be indeflectable if it takes the character unawares. At the highest level of Indirect, an attack that simply manifests itself upon the target without actually travelling the intervening space between attacker and the target is completely and utterly indeflectable and unblockable. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

 

Taking these concepts, lets look at a wizard's Fireball spell. The classic fireball spell is Area of Effect Radius (or perhaps Explosion) but not indirect. The Wizard conjures a small globe of flame in his hand, hurls it at the target where it swiftly travels the intervening space between the wizard and his target, then when it reaches it's target, the small globe of flame EXPLODES into a raging inferno, burning everything in the AoE into cinders. Now imagine a character who has practiced deflecting elemental attack spells with his shield and has purchased Missile Deflection for himself. The instant before the fireball explodes, the character successfully bats away the small globe of flame, knocking it 5" to the side, where it explodes and harmlessly melts a few tapestries and some chairs. I've seen this done in many fictional sources. However as things stand now in Hero, this is not possible.

 

Okay, now how about a wizard's Fireball spell that doesn't creat a globe of flame that flies to the target area and explodes. How about one that simply brings a massive explosion into being within the Area of Effect. The wizard chants, gestures and concentrates, then BOOM!, fried characters. Guess what? You have now created an attack power that requires Indirect to be added to it, because it no longer travels between the attacker and his intended target.

 

Are things starting to become clearer now?

 

What about those Giant's massive fists? Yeah, lets get back to those suckers. The Giant has fists large enough to cover a full Hex. He doesn't have Indirect with his STR, so when he tries to hit a target, he aims for the Target Hex. The character standing in that Hex should be able to block him. However if that Giant wants to use the back of his knuckles in a massive Giant powered Pimp Hand Slap and sweep it across several Hexes, the giant just has to hit the target hex. If no one is there to stop it, it sweeps through the area and the unlucky characters on the receiving end of this must get out of the way or suffer the wrath of the Pimp Hand. This is the same effect as the Dragon's breath detailed above.

 

Is the issue that you can't Block it (and thus prevent the giant from attacking anyone with the AoE), or that you can't take shelter behind the shield?

 

See above.

 

Hm, what about the shield carrier interposing himself and his shield between the giant's fist and a cowering child.... How do the Interpose rules work with AoE? I'll have to review that......

 

The character can totally block the attack for the child if the character was in an adjecent hex. Other than that, I would allow the character to use his shield and himself as cover for the child. Since the character+shield can completely englobe the child, this could be treated as a barrier situation. Both the shield and the characters Def and Body would absorb the damage. Anything beyond will damage the child, so hope you have enough body!

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

But in the Sweep example (another thing that bugs me- missing one Sweep ends the entire sequence. No me gusta)- wouldn't each subsequent hex be the target hex? Thus, the PC should be able to Block when it gets to his/her hex.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Building the (small) giant's attack with the Can Be Blocked Lim is the easiest, clearest, and probably most rules accurate path to dealing with this situation.

 

However, a truly GIANT hand.... a shield should not be able to Block it.

How about to not building it as Area of Effect? Just save the AOE and invest the points into two point CSL for the Attack.

 

To be considered always having area of effect fists, you first need to have around 8 doublings of your height. Wich also means the area of your hand increases by a factor of 16 (where the area is considered to be 1m radius).

 

If we are at the "barely an AOE" treshold like this I could see the attack comming from above to be harder to avoid (dive for cover) that one from the front.

 

The main problem I have with making Area of Effect automatically bypass Block is that I sort of see Block as a kind of barrier. It stops a hand to hand attack from doing damage to a character' date=' much like hiding behind Cover, a shield (which is an augmented block) or a Barrier. [/quote']

I think there is one major misunderstanding:

Block is either dodging the attack or deflecting it (with your weapon), without significant movement. It doesn't needs to be much difference in path and position.

It doesn't means you character has to stand still (no combatant would ever do), but he is not considered to be moving for things like successfull Haymakers.

 

What you describe as Block is interposing (person, Barrier or Force field) and interference.

 

I'm talking about a character who is the intended target of an area of effect hand to hand attack. They get a chance to block.

It is hard to immagine any special effect for that Block wich does not involve reducing the attack for the unintended targets or moving away from the spot as well.

A "Block" that generally affects the Attack is Interference.

 

A character who is the intended target of a ranged Area of Effect power has a chance to missile deflect.

There is a existing limitation "Can be Deflected". But that only affects the use of Defelction/Missile defelction Power.

Example: Grenade in Flight.

 

Now' date=' there is a precedent for Dragon's Breath being blockable, and that is if the character is right next to the Dragon's mouth as it begins to breath, the character could leap into the dragons mouth and shove his/her blocking aparatus (shield, weapon, fists...yuck) against the Dragon's firebreathing organ and "block" it.[/quote']

This is a nice Special Effect for Improvising a Barrier (the Shield) at the Origin Point. For the Durability of said Barrier, look at the Focus Rules.

 

I believe that the advantage Indirect is appropriate for attacks that can bypass blocks and missile deflection. This advantage makes it so an attack can come from an unexpected angle to take a target by surprise or unawares. This screams bypass block/MD to me.

At one point it notices that a Attack might be surprising and thus might be unaffected by a shield held in front of the character. For some reason many people associate that with "it's the unblockable advantage".

Accroding to the rules a "Single Target, unblockable" attack is Area of Effect, Accurate.

 

Now imagine a character who has practiced deflecting elemental attack spells with his shield and has purchased Missile Deflection for himself. The instant before the fireball explodes' date=' the character successfully bats away the small globe of flame, knocking it 5" to the side, where it explodes and harmlessly melts a few tapestries and some chairs. I've seen this done in many fictional sources. However as things stand now in Hero, this is not possible.[/quote']

Most Fireballs in Fiction are Timed/Signal and Contact Explosives at once.

It if was batted away 5 feet and didn't caught the target in it's blast, it wasn't an area of effect attack. It was a "Fire Globe" spell, a directed attack (normal Blast or RKA) and wich was countered by a use of the Rules for Blocking a Ranged Attack (limited Reflection or 6E's Blocking Rules) and looked like a Globe of Fire that "Exploded".

 

What about those Giant's massive fists? Yeah' date=' lets get back to those suckers. The Giant has fists large enough to cover a full Hex.[/quote']

Not quite. They are large enough to do full Damage against everythign in a 1 hex radius. They can easily be larger than that (up to two hexes worth of area), but all targets in adjacent hexes are simply assumed to avoid them autoamtically.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I feel that since my shield approximately the same size(BTW Capt America's shield has about a 2.5 feet diameter) as an enlarged fist, the shield should be able to block it, but that plays with the special effects and at this point, I was looking at a game mechanic solution.

 

Your query about Interposing though has me thinking though. In movies/tv, where the hero uses a shield to protect himself from a dragon's breath weapon, like in Dragonslayer, the hero uses the shield as a barrier in the same way a modern cop might use their tactical shield to protect themselves from a Molotov Cocktail.

 

Maybe I need to remember that in Cap's case, the blocking is the special effect. Perhaps Barrier is the best way to handle it?

 

When you first mentioned block, I was thinking about the manuever block. (Personally, I don't think you should be able to 'block' someone who is significately stronger than you-if you can't throw them, you can't block 'em.) But since you've mentioned the shield, then I would go with barrier/force wall method which seems to be what you want, you're blocking with your shield.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I thought applying Limitations to accurately represent something would be considered "reasoning from effect" and thus would be "use[ing] the rules we already have". If a particular ability should be AoE and should' date=' in the eyes of the GM or designer or whatever, [b']also[/b] be blockable, than why not build it that way? Why instead put the onus on the defender to have a specially built power using Barrier or something when you think it should be blockable anyway (presumably by anyone)? I like the Interference rules suggested in the APG, but I don't think they are widely used, or at least I've never seen them used, and many people don't use the APGs at all. Quite frankly, if you think a power should be able to be blocked it seems much simpler to me to just build a power that can be blocked...

 

While I agree that the (small) giants h-t-h should be built with the blockable limitation*, there is an advantage to the OP buying the power. If the OP buys its, then he has the abilitiy to use it without worrying about if the build allows for it or the GM gives a variance for it. And in a sense, this is no difference in principal than if you want a gun then you have to pay the points for it.

 

*See the above post about strength and block

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I will break with the line of thought with a House Rule.

 

This rule will not be valid in all situations but when the SFX is correct.

 

When a character wants to block an AOE attack with a shield I would let him if the SFX supported it. Meaning if the player wants to block the fist with a shield, yes but against a fireball, if its explosive AOE possibly other than that no. Of course Interference could still be used. What happens if the block succeeds, the player takes no damage from the attack but knockback is still present. Either the player gets embedding in the ground or thrown across the battlefield. Like most of the comic books.

 

I am saying this a is house rules but the the rules (6E1 p.57) for blocking do state that the GM can allow a HTH AOE attack to be blocked if he deems the circumstances appropiate.

 

Thinking along the lines of Interference. The player could possible us the AP of his Strength to interfere with the fist. The two opponents locked in struggle, seem iconicly epic. Again this is a house rule and would have to be situationaly acceptable.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I am saying this a is house rules but the the rules (6E1 p.57) for blocking do state that the GM can allow a HTH AOE attack to be blocked if he deems the circumstances appropiate.

 

Thinking along the lines of Interference. The player could possible us the AP of his Strength to interfere with the fist. The two opponents locked in struggle, seem iconicly epic. Again this is a house rule and would have to be situationaly acceptable.

The rules list as example both having the Same area of effect on thier HTH-Attacks. So this is more about the "big guy vs big buy" situation.

 

As for "sinking into the ground" and interference, keep one or two things in mind:

You might not toally negate an attack, but that is okay. Your defenses are still going to apply and even a little might help a Lot with Area of Effect attacks.

Also, while the character propably has the durability to survive (and the STR to Interfere with) a 12 DC attack, the ground under his feet might not. It has only around 5 PD, so sinking in (with no game effect) can just be a part of the description.

 

As for the "Blocking but takign Knockback":

Either Barrier, Take Knockback (-1/2, APG I 81).

Or this is just a Shield Multipower Slot with X PD, X ED to simulate taking cover form the Fireball/taking the attack prepared. (the defenses can be moderate, even if the shield is nominally indestructible).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

I hardly think the fact that the book limits itself to one example makes the option "more about" that situation than the thousands of other SFX situations to which it might be applied. Also, he very clearly stated he considered his use of the option as a house rule, thus negating any need or purpose behind arguing about the (optional, GMs call) rule in question...

[Manic Typist]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

How about to not building it as Area of Effect? Just save the AOE and invest the points into two point CSL for the Attack.

 

Well, if I want it to be "unblockable" then AoE would be the way to go. More accurate AND efficient.

[CptPatriot]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

The point of the OP is that the GM posed the AoE HtH attack against us and my character is trying to defend against it.

[Christopher]

Re: AoE HTH attacks and Blocking

 

Well' date=' if I want it to be "unblockable" then AoE would be the way to go. More accurate AND efficient.[/quote']

So you say that AOE is the way to make an attack unblockable.

 

But you also Wrote:

Building the (small) giant's attack with the Can Be Blocked Lim is the easiest, clearest, and probably most rules accurate path to dealing with this situation.

That doesn't adds up. The Cleanest way to make a attack Blockable, is to not make it Unblockable in the first place.

 

Going against DCV 3, hitting Multiple Targets and being unblockable is the Point of AoE. The smalest giant (huge; I asume the others are obviously unblockable with their radius) has a 1m/1" radius (depending on Version).

You have no realistic chance to hit more than one target with a 1m Area of Effect! That is simply the room characters need to properly fight. If they are closer, they will be hidnering one another.

That leaves only two reasons to even consider building their Fists with area of effect: DCV 3 and unblockable.

 

In short: The point that small giants fists are even built with AoE, is because they are supposed to be unblockable.

 

The point of the OP is that the GM posed the AoE HtH attack against us and my character is trying to defend against it.

Okay, I can only repeat again what is possible without a Houserule:

Interference form APG I. That protects your characters and others that might have been caught in the area.

Dive for Cover, over 1 Meter*

Placing a Barrier between the giant and you. This will protect you allies as well. Limitations like "takes Knockback" (-1/2; APG I) can be used to fine tune the behavior. The barrier would be part of a Shield Multipower (like Shield bash and Shield Throw) or a Special Talent.

A Shield Multipower Slot that is written up as Extra Resistant Defense. You still take all the KB, but at least you take less Damage. togehter with the loss of Raw Damage for using AoE, his should keep you save. This will only protect yourself.

Combat Luck, maybe with "Require Shield". Yes it will work against Area of Effect attack. The special Effect is "partially Blocking/Dodging the big Fist"

Improvise one of them with your Shield Focus. According to 6E2 a shield has between 5 and 15 AP. That makes 1 to 3 Resistant Defenses. It will propably be shattered, but it will stop some of the damage.

 

 

*Dive for Cover might still look like: "Blocked the fist with his shield, but is driven back by a meter and forced on his knees". As long as the game effects stay the same and are clear, you can describe any maneuver any way you like.