Quickchange question

[blake.duffey]

I have a hero who has non-powered/powered aspects similar to Captain Marvel of the DC universe (the one who is 10 year old Billy Batson until he says 'Shazam' then becomes a super hero). What is the best way to build this?

 

I've built most of the powers as 'only in heroic identity' since my 'normal' can be knocked in the head and tied up, etc. How much should this 'cost'? (I have debated whether it is truly an advantage or a hindrance)

 

Any insight appreciated.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Generally it is asumed that the second form for a character with OIAID/OIHID is simply part of the limitation. After all lookign different is part of the Alterantive ID.

I would even go so far as to say: Any hero can get a decent disguise for free. Even just having a Secret Identity Complication means the character has soem suiteable disguise.

 

The same way with Multiform: Here is even rulepart that each form might look differently for free.

 

On the other side, there are GM who demand Shape Shift for everything that is not a Costume with all it's ups and downs (i.e., can be broken and you need time to switch).

 

To switching between costumes fast, there is a "Instant Change" Power (not to be mistaken with Instant Change Adder for Shape shift) in 5E and 6E. It's based on a cosmetic transform

[blake.duffey]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I appreciate the reply but I'm not certain you've answered my question. In your view, is this something I wouldn't have to 'buy' at all? What is the typical timeframe that would be expected for the change? (I had bought it as a minor transform and my character typically takes a 'phase' to concentrate and turn into the hero).

 

Clark Kent is simply Superman with glasses. Kent has all the powers, defenses, etc. They aren't different. Bruce Banner is vastly different from the Hulk (and Batson vastly different than Captain Marvel). What is the most appropriate way to portray this? In the Hulk's case it's an accidental change (I think that's the term, I don't have my book in front of me) and is bought as a limitation.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

The difficulty to change is part of OIHID and there are no clear values. Billy Batson has to speak a word and his transformation is relatively visible (a lightning bolt hits him), but it does not seems to use gametime often. So for him the difficulty is more to find a situtation in wich changing is not observed directly.

So how many factors other than time have you planend for this "Only in heroic ID"?

 

Bruce Banner/Hulk is propably best built with Multiform (both sides have powers and Complications the other does not have). Here the rules for multiform govern how long it takes (half phase if my memory is right). His transformation does not needs to be only via Accidental Change - quite often it could simply be the player (but not the character) deciding to "hulk out". Accidental Change means: sometimes he change with his player not wanting it.

 

Superman and Flash a good example for "instant costume switch".

[Martin2]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Christopher is saying some GM's will allow it and some will not.

 

From your SFX some may allow it some may want you to buy shape shift.

[blake.duffey]

Re: Quickchange question

 

My PC has a secret identity, so the point you made re: Batson is certainly valid (ie - my 'normal' can't simply go hero in the middle of a crowded bus). I can see where the GM might require a phase to say Shazam/get hit by lightning but I imagine that would depend on the GM. Regarding your point on Banner/Hulk, you are right based on the comics or the recent movie (I was thinking more of the old TV show where he essentially never 'chose' to become the Hulk, it was always accidental).

[Cassandra]

Re: Quickchange question

 

The rules say it usually takes one turn to change into a superhero costume/identity. Even Wonder Woman's famous spin on TV takes a little time.

 

I think there are two ways to build a character in the way your're looking for Black.duffey.

 

One is to have the character with normal level characteristics and then have his superpower level ones OIHID (-1/4). You can then buy Transform: Instant Change (One Set of Clothes), Incantations (-1/4). This is a good way to simulate a Capain Marvel type character

 

Another way is to have your "normal" Identity buy Multiform 250 Points, Instant Change, Incantations (-1/4). The two identities are seperate, with your non-powered one having investigative skills to find your where the bad guy is, and combat luck to keep from getting killed before you can say the magic word. Don't forget contortionist so you can get free long enough to say the magic word and transform.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

My PC has a secret identity' date=' so the point you made re: Batson is certainly valid (ie - my 'normal' can't simply go hero in the middle of a crowded bus). I can see where the GM might require a phase to say Shazam/get hit by lightning but I imagine that would depend on the GM. Regarding your point on Banner/Hulk, you are right based on the comics or the recent movie (I was thinking more of the old TV show where he essentially never 'chose' to become the Hulk, it was always accidental).[/quote']

I think it is mostly depends on how many limitations the Change in effect has.

Billy Batson to Marvel has "Incantations" and "Inobvious to sight and hearing" (total of -1). But it never seem to take time. Half Move into Dark Alley, "Shazam", making a Half move out of the dark alley with flight at the speed of mercury - that soudns like a normal billy Batson phase.

As long as you put Limitations worth -1 on the Switch, you should be save. 2 Phases to Transform (but nothing in terms of requirements), or Gestures and a half phase sound about right for me.

 

The rules say it usually takes one turn to change into a superhero costume/identity. Even Wonder Woman's famous spin on TV takes a little time.

1 Turn? 12 Seconds? 2-4 Full phases for normals? Sound like alittle too much.

Even if it is dragged out a little in the presentation, I would never put it beyond 1 phase + Gestures (must be free enough to spin).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Quickchange question

 

This is a classic 'Only In Hero ID' power set. It has all the benchmarks; powers not accessible all the time, and the transformation can be prevented or interrupted (or, heck, with Mind Control, induced). Buying the powers Only In Hero ID is 100% correct.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Here's how I've done Captain Marvel/SHAZAM!:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/68869-The-Classic-Justice-League-starting-members-on-350-points?p=2051606#post2051606

[blake.duffey]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I truly appreciate everyone's feedback. My main question boils down to Cassandra's post vs. some of the others (and the Captain Marvel example posted by Hyper-Man). Cassandra suggests the purchase of a minor transform (which is how I did it originally I think). Others (such as the Captain Marvel example) don't. I've tried to avoid the complication of multiform and building out separate 'entities' - my 'normal' has pretty human attributes (a high INT) and all the skills. The super simply adds on attributes/powers. I'm just wondering if this is really an 'advantage' worthy of spending several character points on. (I know I'm penny-pinching, my apologies)

 

Also I agree with Christopher regarding these kinds of changes - anything more than a phase is a pretty severe penalty I think. I can see where a power armored hero might have to spend more time actually donning the armor, but from a game perspective I think losing a phase is a decent penalty.

 

Additional thoughts welcome and appreciated.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I'm just wondering if this is really an 'advantage' worthy of spending several character points on. (I know I'm penny-pinching' date=' my apologies) [/quote']

That is a very good question, that only your GM can answer. In effect the Billy Batson/Cpt. Marvel Transform is a full sensory shape shift (Sight, touch, smell, propably including mental group and genetic/biometric), 0 END, Persistent.

But I think what makes it worthless for most parts, is that it is a form you will always run around into (and wich is very distinctive) or that is powerless. Shape Shift is more about being inobvious and/or hiding yourself without disabling powers. But Cpt. Marvel isn't the right for for hiding, while Billi Batson is powerless to the extreme.

 

I can see where a power armored hero might have to spend more time actually donning the armor' date=' but from a game perspective I think losing a phase is a decent penalty.[/quote']

Taking Iron Mans "Briefcase Armor" from the early cartoon I would think it's a IAF + Full Phase at tops (with maybe Concentration thrown in for the mix, but not nessesary).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Do we know for a fact that Captain Marvel smells different than Billy? And I'd seriously question the mental part Christopher. To the OP, most GMs I've played with wouldn't make you buy Instant Change or Shapeshift or anything else; it would just be SFX of the OIAID (particularly if the character had a secret ID).

[Lucius]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I'm another vote for just having the Only in Hero ID Limitation and a Secret ID.

 

I don't think Instant Change or Shapeshift is necessary. If you must have one, though, it should be Instant Change.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only in Palindromedary ID

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Quickchange question

 

And I'd seriously question the mental part

 

Definitely not the mental part; Cap and Billy have the same memories and personality (One of Captain Marvel's big weaknesses is that he has the mind of a 10 year old boy in a superpowered adult body).

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Do we know for a fact that Captain Marvel smells different than Billy? And I'd seriously question the mental part Christopher. To the OP' date=' most GMs I've played with wouldn't make you buy Instant Change or Shapeshift or anything else; it would just be SFX of the OIAID (particularly if the character had a secret ID).[/quote']

 

Definitely not the mental part; Cap and Billy have the same memories and personality (One of Captain Marvel's big weaknesses is that he has the mind of a 10 year old boy in a superpowered adult body).

Regarding smell:

Doesn't he have any foes with Supersmell? If so, could they ever pierce his Secret ID?

 

Shape Shift Mental does not mean the complciations are differently.

It only means Mind Scan, Low Effect Telepathy and similar powers read Billy Batson != Captain Marvel.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I was half-joking about the smell as I don't know if it has ever been addressed in the comics. Does anyone know if his mind has? Presumably a telepath would pick up the same memories from CM and Billy. Not sure about Mind Scan though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I was half-joking about the smell as I don't know if it has ever been addressed in the comics. Does anyone know if his mind has? Presumably a telepath would pick up the same memories from CM and Billy. Not sure about Mind Scan though.

 

I'm not aware of the scent issue has been addressed. If one counts the Young Justice cartoon, however, his mind has been read by a telepath to confirm that Billy is Captain Marvel and vice versa. The fact that the Shazam! transformation is purely physical has been long-established, however.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I'm not aware of the scent issue has been addressed. If one counts the Young Justice cartoon' date=' however, his mind has been read by a telepath to confirm that Billy is Captain Marvel and vice versa. The fact that the Shazam! transformation is purely physical has been long-established, however.[/quote']

But one of his powers does allow him much more resistance to mental powers.

 

Also Mental Shape Shift would only go down to Mind Scan and "Surface thought" Level Telepathy. Just enough to be not detect by casual mindscans, but not enough to overcome deep probing (what they did in that situation).

With a +5 Adder thsi woudl include hidden thoughts, memories and subconsciousness.

[steriaca]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Well, I gave my 'magical guy/girl' style gender changer OIAID and "Instant Change" Cosmetic Transformation (um, in reality two of them...one to change clothing, and a linked one to change gender). So, Lady Heart can be used as an example (if your 'search fu' is good).

 

Um...on second thought, prehaps not, since I made the "Instant Change" power a meta power without explaning how I did it...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Quickchange question

 

So it's justifiable, but not absolutely needed. I'd chalk his change up to OIAID and give him some Mental Defense with his other OIAID powers.

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Well, I gave my 'magical guy/girl' style gender changer OIAID and "Instant Change" Cosmetic Transformation (um, in reality two of them...one to change clothing, and a linked one to change gender). So, Lady Heart can be used as an example (if your 'search fu' is good).

 

Um...on second thought, prehaps not, since I made the "Instant Change" power a meta power without explaning how I did it...

Technically you can't affect yourself with a Transform. The instant Change is a fringe case as it affects your clothing. But to change your real you, you need some shape shift.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Do we know for a fact that Captain Marvel smells different than Billy? And I'd seriously question the mental part Christopher. To the OP' date=' most GMs I've played with wouldn't make you buy Instant Change or Shapeshift or anything else; it would just be SFX of the OIAID (particularly if the character had a secret ID).[/quote']

 

Evidently they are different enough for the zeta beam transporters to not recognize Billy (from a recent Young Justice animated episode).

[Martin2]

Re: Quickchange question

 

I was half-joking about the smell as I don't know if it has ever been addressed in the comics. Does anyone know if his mind has? Presumably a telepath would pick up the same memories from CM and Billy. Not sure about Mind Scan though.

 

Wolverine has been known to id changed people as not who they are by their smell.

 

He has cought a few Skrulls this way (but not all).

[Christopher]

Re: Quickchange question

 

Wolverine has been known to id changed people as not who they are by their smell.

 

He has cought a few Skrulls this way (but not all).

I guess the Skrulls didn't cover the Smell group then. But of course you need a baseline to compare them too. If you never saw the original, how could you make out the copy.