Facing and Passing

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

The thread Sean was thinking about (I think) was one on running and jumping in the same phase. Christopher appears to quote the books but I cant check that until I get home...but what he wrote there was

 

Any movement with any single mode of movement of up to half your movement rate counts as a half move, which needs a half phase action

 

Now that sounds like rulebook language which would mitigate mixing movement modes outside of half phases but the consensus on the thread seemed to be to ignore the rules and do what sounded like it made sense...

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I recall a discussion on this recently (well in the last year or so...) and I think that by RAW you can not mix movement modes within any given half phase' date=' so you can not run, jump and then run, even if the total movement does not exceed any of the individual movement modes - personally I ignore that though [/quote']

 

I recall the same. I also disagree with the ruling on a practical basis. It's in the FAQ.

 

Can a character use two forms of movement in one Phase? If not, why can characters make running leaps?

 

If a character wanted to use two forms of movement in a Phase, he’d have to make a Half Move (defined, as always, as using up to half one’s inches of movement in a Phase) with both, effectively ending his Phase. A “running leap” is just a Leap — making a Leap may involve some running, as discussed by the rules on 5E 21.

 

6e maintains that approach, I would say pretty clearly.

 

FULL MOVES AND HALF MOVES

 

Each Phase a character may move any portion of his meters of movement with a particular mode of movement. A Full Move is defined as moving more than half of a character’s movement distance with a particular mode of movement. It takes a Full Phase Action to make a Full Move; a character who has made a Full Move can’t perform any other Action in that Phase.

 

A Half Move is defined as moving up to half of a character’s movement distance with a particular mode of movement. A character who’s made a Half Move can perform another Half Phase Action in that Phase (including making a Half Move with some other mode of movement, if desired).

 

Even one meter with a form of movement is a half phase.

 

I disagree on the conceptual front (it seems reasonable that a character with 30 meters of Running and 40 meters Flight should be able to fly 5 meters (25% half move), then run 3 meters (20% of half move) then fly another 8 meters (40% of half move). He's moved, if my math is right, 14 meters. He could have run 15 or flown 20 in a half move. Why should the break between flight and running require he take 3 half moves to get almost as far?

 

On a technical basis, does this make "usable as another mode of movement" even more valuable (ie "I only used one movement ability, so I should not have to stagger my running and flight into different half moves"). 40 meters of Flight, also usable as running, would be cheaper - it should not also enhance a half move when modes are mixed!

 

Supporting Steve's ruling, I can see where doing the math on the fly could get annoying and complex. That extra complexity isn't enough to justify the rule, though. Compute DC's on the fly. I think I'd prefer the complex rule, and options for simplification where desired.

 

I do not think I have ever seen anything in the rules that prevents you from running' date=' jumping and then running again - indeed, there's nothing stopping you from running, jumping and then teleporting (an action seen just recently in one of our games) - as long as you respect your movement restrictions. You can't run a full move, then jump, for example, but if you can run 6" and jump 2", then a 2" run, 1" jump, 1" run is quite legal (half move running, half move jumping). So the movement part is by the book legal (indeed, the rules explicitly warn [b']against [/b]what phoenix240 nicely dubs the "stop motion effect", so my interpretation is very much by the book).

 

I think the above shows that the movement part is not, by the book, legal.

 

The bit about "you can't move through an opponent's space at all" or "you must make a roll to do so successfully" - you are right' date=' these [b']are [/b]house rules, and I noted that up front, when I first listed them. They are interpretations of existing rules (somebody else noted the comments in the rules on acrobatics about avoiding obstacles, for example) rather than new rules per se, but they are definitely not black and white.

 

Semantics, but I would say "extrapolations" rather than "interpretations", as I consider an extrapolation a house rule (ie it is not the rule, but we riff off of the existing rules to add this one) and an interpretation to be the way we consider the book rules work (which often becomes a house rule when Steve rules something different).

 

As for complexity' date=' I've never found that it adds very much (if any).[/quote']

 

The major complexity added is pro rating the movement rates. As I said, it's a level of added complexity I accept as a small price for the added verisimilitude and equity for use of multiple movement modes. It also doesn't come up all that often (and if it does in a specific game, then we get faster at the math pretty quickly since we use it more).

 

I simply ask the players what they are doing' date=' and they tell me - usually in plain words. That can be as simple as "[i']Punch him inna face[/i]" (Strike maneuver: we only assume aiming for a hit location if it's explicitly stated) or as complex as "I walk down the passage stopping and checking - cautiously! - around each corner - and being ready to fire at any soldier I see" (quarter move, look around corner, quarter move and end with a held action for shooting). If there had been a guard down the first passage it would be: quarter move and shoot, end phase - the player has already specified what they are doing. Sometimes of course it's quarter move - and the player asks "what do I see?" and then decides how to react for the rest of their action (if for example, they see 12 soldiers, then suddenly shooting might not seem like a good idea).

 

I suspect the ruling based on the above would be "used 1/4 of your meters to get to the corner so that's a half move; stop and look *; hold half phase for shooting", but outside combat time, it's a trivial distinction. I'm not sure what the official word on "ready to fire" would be, but I'd agree the character should have no trouble shooting the soldier around the corner. Mind you, if that soldier is a diligent guard, ready to shoot anyone coming around the corner, then I see opposed DEX rolls as appropriate. You cover that below. [ASIDE: Perhaps an ego roll or some such should be required to maintain a held action over an extended period - no issue for the explorer, but how long can that Guard maintain his diligent readiness over hours of watch recurring day after day?]

 

* wasn't there a requirement to spend a half phase looking around at one time? I'd say that looking down a corridor is a "no time" action - a careful search would take time (much like trying to perceive an opponent with a non-targeting sense or confirm whether that opponent on the ground is just playing possum).

 

How that plays out depends on the player's actions - if shooting on sight is prespecified' date=' they have a "held action" - even while moving: they are ready to fire with a split-second's reaction: think of cop shows where the PCs are moving with gun held up and forward. That gives them a DEX-off if there's someone round the corner who also has a held action. But the payoff for that is that they have less flexibility. Anyone who has played a FPS like Counterstrike with friendly fire on, knows the bit where you are keyed up for an assault, and are ready to shoot: you see a movement, fire - and then think "[i']S***! That was one of ours![/i]" If they choose instead to half move and then ask "What do I see?" they gain maximum flexibility - at the cost of a fraction of a second's reaction time: they don't get a DEX-off if there is someone round the corner, with a held action waiting to shoot.

 

Agreed on the above - if you round the corner ready to shoot, hopefully your captured teammate who has escaped isn't walking towards you when you turn that corner. I'd probably allow a PER roll to recognize that this is a friendly before firing, or a DEX roll to stop the shot (or maybe you never liked that guy anyway and you pretend you failed the roll... ).

[Netzilla]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Segment by segment doesn't really solve the issue, though. Knight moves a meter left to block Orc, then Orc moves 2 meters right and moves on past Knight - it just breaks the issue into smaller bits. Not sure I've seen "moving with", though it sounds familiar. By the book, I think we're back to held actions.

 

Yeah, but the book does warn against the (to steal phoenix240's term) "stop motion effect" so I think it's fairly clear that the GM is expected to handle this type of situation which isn't properly covered by the rules. Personally, I think that's as it should be in order to avoid rules bloat and because the whole reason we have GMs (aside from scenario creation) is to account for the fact that no one rule system can truly cover everything. However, I'm still pretty sure that I've seen 'sticking to' an opponent covered in some Hero book (maybe it was HSMA, FH or the HSCH).

 

I've seen it. I have also seen the attacker hit the defender. The latter is not automatic - it requires a roll. Why should the former be automatic? That's really the crux of the issue.

 

Actually, I think you've covered it in the fact that the attacker didn't miss. If the attacker misses, the defender gets by. If the attacker hits (with a grab, push or enough force to Stun/Knockdown), the defender doesn't. I don't think the defender needs to make a die roll because the relative capability of attacker and defender are well enough covered by the OCV/DCV interaction.

 

Then we are back to needing some rule for the orc to move past the knight in the absence of a critical miss, where the knight is not off balance. (nb: I agree with you that the detals of the example don't help, but the names are convenient tags once we assume Orc wants to move past Knight for whatever reason).

 

I don't think a critical miss is needed at all. A regular miss is enough to allow the orc to slip by. Check the illustration and explanation of my reading of it in message 105. I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think the attacker needs to be off-balance just to allow the slip by. To me, being truly off balance means you're going to be taking CV/init penalties if not losing a half-phase or more as a result. Here's an example of what I would consider "off-balance":

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43263[/ATTACH]

Notice how far forward the attacker is leaning (much further than in the illustration referenced above). That, in my mind, is a critical miss and good justification for a DCV penalty and losing a half-phase in order to "stand up".

 

So why can the orc move past the knight without attacking, but without ignoring the threat of the knight either? What conceptually necessitates he attack in order to defend? Why can't he "feint" to cause the knight to perceive a need to defend himself, rather than actually attack?

 

I assume you meant the underlined word to be "can't" and am making my reply based on that (note, this isn't an attempt at a grammar/spelling flame; just making sure my assumption is right). The whole point of the Cover an Area maneuver is that the knight is presenting himself as a threat to anyone moving through the area. In order to acknowledge that threat, the orc can include the knight in his attack, can half-move to the knight and hold action for a block/dodge or in some other way convince the GM that he's not ignoring the knight. Toward that last, I think a good Sleight of Hand or PRE Attack roll along with a reasonable description would work for me. I suppose you can call that a house-rule but it's not something I'd bother to codify as it's more of a spur-of-the-moment just-for-this-case GM call.

[Netzilla]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

* wasn't there a requirement to spend a half phase looking around at one time? I'd say that looking down a corridor is a "no time" action - a careful search would take time (much like trying to perceive an opponent with a non-targeting sense or confirm whether that opponent on the ground is just playing possum).

 

Actually, as I recall, you do have the actual ruling correct. A normal PER Roll for a quick look-around takes no time. However, actively searching so that you can get PER Roll bonuses and more detailed info takes at least a 1/2 Phase. A quick look (no time) gives you an impression or you might catch something out of the corner of your eye but really taking the time to look (1/2 Phase) can get you details: how many, what are they armed with, any identifying markings, etc. At least, that's how my group has always played it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I suspect the ruling based on the above would be "used 1/4 of your meters to get to the corner so that's a half move; stop and look *; hold half phase for shooting"' date=' but outside combat time, it's a trivial distinction. I'm not sure what the official word on "ready to fire" would be, but I'd agree the character should have no trouble shooting the soldier around the corner. Mind you, if that soldier is a diligent guard, ready to shoot anyone coming around the corner, then I see opposed DEX rolls as appropriate. You cover that below. [ASIDE: Perhaps an ego roll or some such should be required to maintain a held action over an extended period - no issue for the explorer, but how long can that Guard maintain his diligent readiness over hours of watch recurring day after day?']

 

* wasn't there a requirement to spend a half phase looking around at one time? I'd say that looking down a corridor is a "no time" action - a careful search would take time (much like trying to perceive an opponent with a non-targeting sense or confirm whether that opponent on the ground is just playing possum).

 

I'd agree that looking down a corridor is a "takes no time" action - as such it can be performed without restricting continued movement. That however is a glance, not a detailed examination. As for holding an action, I generally only allow that in combat time. A guard can't be on hair trigger alert for more than some minutes, let alone hours or days, except in extraordinary circumstances. He can be watchful, but not at the split-second reaction time that a held action implies.

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Each Phase a character may move any portion of his meters of movement with a particular mode of movement. A Full Move is defined as moving more than half of a character’s movement distance with a particular mode of movement. It takes a Full Phase Action to make a Full Move; a character who has made a Full Move can’t perform any other Action in that Phase.

 

A Half Move is defined as moving up to half of a character’s movement distance with a particular mode of movement. A character who’s made a Half Move can perform another Half Phase Action in that Phase (including making a Half Move with some other mode of movement, if desired).

 

Looking at that, there's nothing that suggests the movement has to be sequential - and as we have noted, some actions (like looking down a passage) can be performed without preventing further movement. So it doesn't affect our interposing examples, which only require a single movement type and no phase-ending actions.

 

On the other hand, as noted above, changing modes of movement requires changing powers (something I had not thought of), which can only be done at the end of a half phase action, so I agree, by RAW, run-jump-run is not possible.

 

That's pretty dumb, so I will officially add a houserule though I doubt it will see much use.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Looking at that' date=' there's nothing that suggests the movement has to be sequential - and as we have noted, some actions (like looking down a passage) can be performed without preventing further movement. So it doesn't affect our interposing examples, which only require a single movement type and no phase-ending actions.[/quote']

 

I would say rather that some items can be performed without interrupting movement. If the movement is interrupted (ie you stop), I think that ends the movement/half phase. If it does not, then Orc moves 2 meters of his half move, gets tripped by Knight who had that held phase, Orc uses his remaining half phase to stand up and continues a further 4 meters to the Princess (and, assuming that was the action announced, completes his Move Through).

 

I suppose we could differentiate the fact the Orc made a half move action in between, but I'm not convinced masking an acrobatics roll should allow him to just continue on as if nothing had happened either.

 

 

I think that, if you want to move between strikes, the rules classify that as multiple move by's, so an extra penalty and reduced damage, as well as making combination with Shove or Trip more troublesome as that's different maneuvers (although I'm generally pretty open about combining maneuvers, especially the "while moving" maneuvers).

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I would say rather that some items can be performed without interrupting movement. If the movement is interrupted (ie you stop)' date=' I think that ends the movement/half phase[/quote']

Only making a half move does not means "you stop". You can make a half move in your phase and still have velocity during your next turn. In fact you can even make a half move at noncombat velcoity (running at full combat speed, while still doing something else is tricky!).

It means during your entire phase you moved so slowly, that you still had time for another half phase action.

 

Having to stop your Movement to look around makes sense:

You did not "ran around the corner". You moved towards the corner, halted (end of half move), looked around (0-phase action), then decided what to do (next half-phase action).

If you say "my hero runs around the corner" you make a full move without looking first. When the character sees it is stupid to go on (there is obviously a guard in the way and it is ready) and hasn't moved more than half his movement yet, he could still abort to decelerate. But mostly he literally "stormed around the corner without looking".

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I'd certainly ignore it - but can anyone confirm such a ruling? I can't recall ever having seen it, and among all the GM's I've played with, I can't recall such a ruling being pointed out.

 

cheers, Mark

 

My searchh-fu is weak, but it has been an official ruling since 5ER at least. I don't remember if it was in the FAQ or in the Questions thread, but there were several threads devoted to discussing it in the years since I joined.

 

EDIT: DER! Scooped like 8 times. Stupid phone didn't refresh the page so I answered.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I'd certainly ignore it - but can anyone confirm such a ruling? I can't recall ever having seen it, and among all the GM's I've played with, I can't recall such a ruling being pointed out.

 

cheers, Mark

Yes, I am aware of this ruling and it makes total sense for me. I would not require you to decelate to switch, as long as both movement modes support your velocity with a half move (you might have use one in non-combat mode to not slow down).

So you could switch from running 20m to flight 20m. But when you only can/want to move 6m with running, then you only get 16m of movement that phase, not 20m.

 

Trying to use two movement powers in the same half-move action also has logical issues: How far do you move with 12m running and 8m swimmming in a single half move, when you ran 4m* before jumping into water?

*if you actutally try to solve, also stop the tiem you need. You see why it is a bad idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK, waiting for the clock to roll to the next minute...

 

4 m Running is 2/3 of a half move leaving 1/3 for Swimming is 4/3 of a meter rounded down to 1 meter.

 

Clock didn't move again, so well under a minute. The math isn't that complicated.

 

And I would generally do the math while other players were taking their actions and I'm planning my [clock finally moved forward] own move, so this would not slow the game down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Thought: trying to have a look around whilst running is likely to impose a PER penalty, so I would let the player choose if they wanted to end their half phase by stopping, look then do another half phase, or look whilst doing their first half phase at speed, with a -1 or -2, or -1/5"move penalty.

 

On movement, a couple of points:

1. I think it unlikely that you will need to mix movement modes much, except possibly run/jump (or (runflyswimswingglide/teleport) i.e. you probably will not need to mix move modes unless there is an intervening obstacle. My approach would be this: if you want to mix two modes of movement, you can do up to a half move of each (but round down any 0.5s, not up*), and add for the total move distance. You can then freely mix the modes within that phase as if you had a 'combined move' of that distance. That preserves the 'half phase move' feel, and is very easy to calculate, as we already know hat our half moves are.

2. I am not convinced that 'usable as a second mode of movement' changes the rule about half phase moves or allows complete freedom to swap between modes. What may be being avoided is someone effectively getting the best of both worlds here: start by flying, touch down for 1m half way through so you can turn without turn mode, then touch down at the end of the move to avoid additional KB if hit. I'm not sure how I feel about that: part of me thinks 'why not' and I answer, because I don't want to have to deal with that level of complication in combat movement and 'useable as a second mode' is already giving a substantial cost break on actually buying a second mode of movement, or at least pricing it similarly to putting them in a fixed slot MP, which has additional restrictions.

3. Damn: now I am wondering what happens if you have flight useable as swimming, and you are hit with a swimming drain. Can you fly?

 

 

 

*Round down because otherwise you have someone with 13m run and 7m leap and they get (7+4) = 11m total. This is clearer if the run and leap are the same distance, say both 13m: the theoretically get, with normal rounding 7m+7m move = 14m, whereas you would not allow someone an extra metre of movement just because they take two half phase moves rather than a full phase move.

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I would say rather that some items can be performed without interrupting movement. If the movement is interrupted (ie you stop)' date=' I think that ends the movement/half phase. If it does not, then Orc moves 2 meters of his half move, gets tripped by Knight who had that held phase, Orc uses his remaining half phase to stand up and continues a further 4 meters to the Princess (and, assuming that was the action announced, completes his Move Through).[/quote']

 

Given that standing up is a half move, no, he doesn't

 

The rules even address this specifically "For example, he can’t get to his feet and make a Half Move all as a single Half Phase Action." (6E2 18).

Getting knocked down is definitely going to end your movement because you will need to take at least a half phase to stand up or switch movement mode.

However, I see nothing in the rules to suggest that pausing for a fraction of second (to, for example glance around) somehow locks you in place - and of course, common sense would argue strongly against it as well. That's basically a "takes no time" action.

 

A person moving their full move in a phase takes their full phase to do so. If they make a half move they use the same amount of time to cover half the distance. In neither case, do they instantly rachet into place and then freeze with an audible "Twoingggg", while somebody else springs from frozen to full action.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK, waiting for the clock to roll to the next minute...

 

4 m Running is 2/3 of a half move leaving 1/3 for Swimming is 4/3 of a meter rounded down to 1 meter.

 

Clock didn't move again, so well under a minute. The math isn't that complicated.

 

And I would generally do the math while other players were taking their actions and I'm planning my [clock finally moved forward] own move, so this would not slow the game down.

 

It took me less time than a minute, by a substantial amount. It's no more complicated than calculating damage from a hit (and since there's no dice to count, takes less time).

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Thought: trying to have a look around whilst running is likely to impose a PER penalty' date=' so I would let the player choose if they wanted to end their half phase by stopping, look then do another half phase, or look whilst doing their first half phase at speed, with a -1 or -2, or -1/5"move penalty.[/quote']

 

As I run it, if you do not pause to look (at least a half phase) then you don't get a PER roll. You see what is immediately obvious - a table, a door, a combat mime right in front of you ... whatever. You don't get to see what's on the table (unless it also is really obvous, like an active lava lamp), don't get to see that the combat mime really is behind a glass wall ... etc. A quick glance is just that. If you want a better look take a half phase - which after all is at most only a few seconds.

 

On movement, a couple of points:

1. I think it unlikely that you will need to mix movement modes much, except possibly run/jump (or (runflyswimswingglide/teleport) i.e. you probably will not need to mix move modes unless there is an intervening obstacle. My approach would be this: if you want to mix two modes of movement, you can do up to a half move of each (but round down any 0.5s, not up*), and add for the total move distance. You can then freely mix the modes within that phase as if you had a 'combined move' of that distance. That preserves the 'half phase move' feel, and is very easy to calculate, as we already know hat our half moves are.

 

Sounds reasonable: I agree that mixed mode movement is relatively unusual. Run and jump is the commonest for our games.

 

2. I am not convinced that 'usable as a second mode of movement' changes the rule about half phase moves or allows complete freedom to swap between modes. What may be being avoided is someone effectively getting the best of both worlds here: start by flying, touch down for 1m half way through so you can turn without turn mode, then touch down at the end of the move to avoid additional KB if hit. I'm not sure how I feel about that: part of me thinks 'why not' and I answer, because I don't want to have to deal with that level of complication in combat movement and 'useable as a second mode' is already giving a substantial cost break on actually buying a second mode of movement, or at least pricing it similarly to putting them in a fixed slot MP, which has additional restrictions.

3. Damn: now I am wondering what happens if you have flight useable as swimming, and you are hit with a swimming drain. Can you fly?

 

If the drain targets special effects, then yes, if not, then no.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Thought: trying to have a look around whilst running is likely to impose a PER penalty' date=' so I would let the player choose if they wanted to end their half phase by stopping, look then do another half phase, or look whilst doing their first half phase at speed, with a -1 or -2, or -1/5"move penalty.[/quote']

I would say not takign time to look (not ending your half-move to make a 0-phase perception roll), means you only see the obvious. When I run at top speed I see people that are in my way, but I hardly see any details. I am to occupied with movement.

 

2. I am not convinced that 'usable as a second mode of movement' changes the rule about half phase moves or allows complete freedom to swap between modes. What may be being avoided is someone effectively getting the best of both worlds here: start by flying' date=' touch down for 1m half way through so you can turn without turn mode, then touch down at the end of the move to avoid additional KB if hit.[/quote']

The rules make it clear:

Changing movement modes is a 0-phase action. You can only make a 0-phasae action before or after a half-move, not in the middle.

 

3. Damn: now I am wondering what happens if you have flight useable as swimming' date=' and you are hit with a swimming drain. Can you fly?[/quote']

As Drain takes Character Points from the power, of course you can't. The question might better be is "Flight, Usable as Swimming" that is in flight mode affected by a Drain Swimming?

But this is a question, best asked to Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89823-Variable-Special-Effect-Usable-as-other-form-of-movement-and-Drain

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I would say not takign time to look (not ending your half-move to make a 0-phase perception roll)' date=' means you only see the obvious. When I run at top speed I see people that are in my way, but I hardly see any details. I am to occupied with movement.[/quote']

Sracth that one. I found no definition for the time a Peception Roll Takes, but my best bet:

You get one action that takes no time perception roll everytime something of notice comes in your view (i.e. to counter a Stealth Roll).

But you can make an additional perception roll (actively looking around) as 0-phase action, to notice things you haven't with your first try.

Going to the corner (ending your first half move), glancing around and then deciding would then have two advantages:

2 Perception rolls

You already have decelerated, so you can just decide to not go further.

 

If you just run around the corner at full move, then you only have one roll and still have to decelrate in time.

 

So remember warrior:

Always end your half-move and look.

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Sracth that one. I found no definition for the time a Peception Roll Takes, but my best bet:

You get one action that takes no time perception roll everytime something of notice comes in your view (i.e. to counter a Stealth Roll).

But you can make an additional perception roll (actively looking around) as 0-phase action, to notice things you haven't with your first try.

Going to the corner (ending your first half move), glancing around and then deciding would then have two advantages:

2 Perception rolls

You already have decelerated, so you can just decide to not go further.

 

If you just run around the corner at full move, then you only have one roll and still have to decelrate in time.

 

So remember warrior:

Always end your half-move and look.

 

PER rolls are listed as typically being half phase actions near the bottom of 6E2 18.

It says "Most PER rolls" which I interpret two ways.

1) If you are examining something really carefully, it's going to take more than a half phase.

2) If it's something that you might notice without actively searching for it (ie: you are running - do you hear the door open behind you? Do you notice the light spilling out?) then it's a no time thing.

 

But typically, in my games, to look long enough to get a PER roll, a half-phase is enough and required.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

PER rolls are listed as typically being half phase actions near the bottom of 6E2 18.

It says "Most PER rolls" which I interpret two ways.

1) If you are examining something really carefully, it's going to take more than a half phase.

2) If it's something that you might notice without actively searching for it (ie: you are running - do you hear the door open behind you? Do you notice the light spilling out?) then it's a no time thing.

 

But typically, in my games, to look long enough to get a PER roll, a half-phase is enough and required.

Nope, not required.

take a look at 6E2 12, "Time spent looking" and "Time spent Listening"

A Half Phase is actively looking/listening and gives you a perception roll with +1.

Full Phase looking at 1/2 DCV gives you +2. (and from then on you propably use the time chart).

So that means there has to be a Action for a Perception roll at +0, whose time is lesser than a half phase.

 

Also, Skill Contest Rolls are always Actions that take no time (I count them as "rolls the GM requests").

 

Don't forget one thing when counting time/phases:

You don't do you Phase in one Second. You do it in a time equal to 12/SPD. The entire phase/dex mechanic is only to determine who goes before for whom, who is that "split second" faster at acting or reacting and how hard it is to "keep an enemy in the ropes".

A character with 12 SPD has a suffciently high perception and reaction time that he can do everything a normal person (2 SPD) does in 6 second in 1 second.

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Nope, not required.

take a look at 6E2 12, "Time spent looking" and "Time spent Listening"

A Half Phase is actively looking/listening and gives you a perception roll with +1.

Full Phase looking at 1/2 DCV gives you +2. (and from then on you propably use the time chart).

So that means there has to be a Action for a Perception roll at +0, whose time is lesser than a half phase.

 

Also, Skill Contest Rolls are always Actions that take no time (I count them as "rolls the GM requests").

 

Don't forget one thing when counting time/phases:

You don't do you Phase in one Second. You do it in a time equal to 12/SPD. The entire phase/dex mechanic is only to determine who goes before for whom, who is that "split second" faster at acting or reacting and how hard it is to "keep an enemy in the ropes".

A character with 12 SPD has a suffciently high perception and reaction time that he can do everything a normal person (2 SPD) does in 6 second in 1 second.

 

You missed the word "typically".

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

The question might better be is "Flight, Usable as Swimming" that is in flight mode affected by a Drain Swimming?

But this is a question, best asked to Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89823-Variable-Special-Effect-Usable-as-other-form-of-movement-and-Drain

We got an answer:

No. Flight, Useable as swimming, Useable as Running can only be affected by Adjustment powers that affect Flight, not ones that affect Running or Swimming, regardless of the mode it is currently used in.

But of course a Drain Flight would still reduce the Character Points and thus how fast any movement mode can go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Given that standing up is a half move' date=' no, he doesn't [/quote']

 

I think allowing "takes no time" actions during movement (or any other action), but requiring a half phase end to take any other action, is the most reasonable approach. That leaves the "how long does a PER roll take" question.

 

The description you provided lead me to think "move to the corner, then carefully peer around it". To me, that sounds like "stop at the corner, finishing that movement action, and then carefully look around the corner". seems like that ends the first half move so your example, holding a half phase to shoot, isn't oving past the corner. Now we discuss the time needed to look down the area beyond the corner. That's either zero phase or 1/2 phase. That timing issue seems to have taken on a life of its own.

 

I'd say even if the character just carries on past the cornber (that is, does not interrupt his half move), then he will still perceive anything with a positive modifier (ie those things you need no PER roll for anyway). He'd have to make active efforts NOT to perceive these, such as closing his eyes. That action takes no time.

 

But there must be other PER rolls that take no time. I need to make a PER roll to notice someone Stealthy, and that can happen in combat when I'm not using actions to look around, so clearly that is an action that takes no time. As spending a half phase provides a +1 modifier, I'd say anyone who spends no time gets a standard PER roll, except for instances where the rules provide a time requirement (eg. trying to detect an opponent with a non-targeting sense). Realistically, our ears and eyes don't shut down, so a basic PER roll should be the chance of noticing something when making no effort to look for it.

 

Where the attempt has a time requirement, no bonus for taking that minimum time is appropriate. Moving up the time chart should add bonuses.

 

Seems reasonable and consistent with what is printed.

[Escafarc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I haven't read the whole thread but how about the Knight using a casual PRE attack to keep the orc from attacking the princess?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I haven't read the whole thread but how about the Knight using a casual PRE attack to keep the orc from attacking the princess?

 

I think that was suggested, and it does not need to be casual as PRE attacks take no time but, even if he is PRE 20, he will get -1d6 for being in combat and probably -1d6 for being on the defensive, so he is unlikely to exceed orc's PRE enough to give him pause.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

We got an answer:

No. Flight, Useable as swimming, Useable as Running can only be affected by Adjustment powers that affect Flight, not ones that affect Running or Swimming, regardless of the mode it is currently used in.

But of course a Drain Flight would still reduce the Character Points and thus how fast any movement mode can go.

 

That is surprising; if you have flight usable as swimming, and you are swimming and get hit by a swimming drain, nothing happens. Odd.