Facing and Passing

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I would consider a 'no combat time' PER roll as a 'notice' roll; you are not actively searching but you can potentially spot anything you might otherwise spot. If you are running at full speed or otherwise distracted, I might impose a penalty. If you take a half phase or more to do a 'proper job' then you are searching and get bonuses.

[Escafarc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I think that was suggested' date=' and it does not need to be casual as PRE attacks take no time but, even if he is PRE 20, he will get -1d6 for being in combat and probably -1d6 for being on the defensive, so he is unlikely to exceed orc's PRE enough to give him pause.[/quote']

I could and would give the Knight additional dice for appropriate setting, superior tech, etc. depending on the situation.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

That is surprising; if you have flight usable as swimming' date=' and you are swimming and get hit by a swimming drain, nothing happens. Odd.[/quote']

You aren't swimming. You use your flight to propel you, not your arms and legs.

And of course you can always take a limitation that the power is affected by more than one type of drain.

 

I would consider a 'no combat time' PER roll as a 'notice' roll; you are not actively searching but you can potentially spot anything you might otherwise spot. If you are running at full speed or otherwise distracted' date=' I might impose a penalty. If you take a half phase or more to do a 'proper job' then you are searching and get bonuses.[/quote']

I think when talking about "Full Speed", we need to clearly state if we mean full "Combat Movement" or full "Non-combat Movement".

 

Full Combat Movement:

"A character using Combat Movementis dodging and looking out for targets and enemy attacks — he moves as fast as he can while still trying to find targets and to present a difficult target for his attackers."

So I think a free Perception with no penalty would be in order.

 

For Noncombat movement I would agree that a penalty is in order. As my best guess I would use -3. This is the one you get for using powers with Concentration.

In fact I think it could work a generic penalty whenever a character does something that halves his DCV: Haymaker, Multiple Attack, Autofire and all the rest.

[dmjalund]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK - I am now going to buy all my swimming as "Flight usable as swimming" - only underwater!

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK - I am now going to buy all my swimming as "Flight usable as swimming" - only underwater!

So in effect you buy swimming almost inherent. Inherent is a +1/4 Advantage. However having Inherent being drainable as a totaly different power might not be worth a Limtiation.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

That is surprising; if you have flight usable as swimming' date=' and you are swimming and get hit by a swimming drain, nothing happens. Odd.[/quote']

 

was thinking about it but I think in most circumstances, it makes sense. Thinking of flight that can be used as swimming. So, possibly a hovercraft, drain swimming does not cover it, drain flight still would regardless of where the craft was...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

However, for a player who did switch movement modes a lot - it would be useful to purchase this to avoid the rules problem of switching modes - everything would be flight used as flight, running, jumping or whatever else....

 

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

However' date=' for a player who did switch movement modes a lot - it would be useful to purchase this to avoid the rules problem of switching modes - everything would be flight used as flight, running, jumping or whatever else....[/quote']

He does pay a premium in Active Points and Endurance Cost to allow this.

Plus the fact that he get's less Swimming/Jumping meters per CP than buying them seperately

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

was thinking about it but I think in most circumstances' date=' it makes sense. Thinking of flight that can be used as swimming. So, possibly a hovercraft, drain swimming does not cover it, drain flight still would regardless of where the craft was...[/quote']

 

The difficulty is a perception one: moving through water is going to be seen as 'swimming' , even if you are doing it with rocket motors. You are, actually swimming - that is what the power is being used as. An attacker would not think to drain flight from someone in that situation (unless they read this thread!).

 

I'm just going to go round in circles here, because I can see both sides of the argument; is it swimming?

1. No, it is flight

2. Yes, it is flight, but being USED as swimming

 

What happens if the 'drain swimming' works by thickening the water around you - that would work even on the flight version, or should?

 

Ack, too many problems and too many answers!

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

The difficulty is a perception one: moving through water is going to be seen as 'swimming' ' date=' even if you are doing it with rocket motors. You are, actually swimming - that is what the power is being used as. An attacker would not think to drain flight from someone in that situation (unless they read this thread!).[/quote']

Not by RAW!

It should always be obvious what sort of movement power the character is using. While the character could hide the true nature (making swimming gestures while actually flying through water) this would fall under hidden use of a power - a stealth roll with AP penalty.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Not by RAW!

It should always be obvious what sort of movement power the character is using. While the character could hide the true nature (making swimming gestures while actually flying through water) this would fall under hidden use of a power - a stealth roll with AP penalty.

 

So we have two guys who have rocket powered boots that allow them to move quickly through the water. Watching them they appear to be moving in exactly the same way, and with the same visual and audio components, but one pair of boots is red, one blue. One is built as Swimming, the other as Flight usable as Swimming. I really have to tell my players "Yes, the blue boots seem to work identically to the red ones, but I built them differently, so you'll need 'drain flight'"? That does not sound like a game that sucks at all.

 

Anyway, I can't look now but, doesn't an obvious power make it obvious that a power is being used, not necessarily how it is built?

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

So we have two guys who have rocket powered boots that allow them to move quickly through the water. Watching them they appear to be moving in exactly the same way, and with the same visual and audio components, but one pair of boots is red, one blue. One is built as Swimming, the other as Flight usable as Swimming. I really have to tell my players "Yes, the blue boots seem to work identically to the red ones, but I built them differently, so you'll need 'drain flight'"? That does not sound like a game that sucks at all.

 

Anyway, I can't look now but, doesn't an obvious power make it obvious that a power is being used, not necessarily how it is built?

Now you just try really hard to make up a problem.

 

Drain is by defnition a somewhat metagamey effect. You need to target it at a power. Not telling a player with a Drain (Flight or Swimming) wich one version would work would just be one thing: Bad GM-ing.

 

I asume you aren't a Bad GM and thus are fully able to use this simple fix I presented you. No Problem at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

was thinking about it but I think in most circumstances' date=' it makes sense. Thinking of flight that can be used as swimming. So, possibly a hovercraft, drain swimming does not cover it, drain flight still would regardless of where the craft was...[/quote']

 

That would not bother me because a lot of people seeing that would not think it was swimming, as the craft is travelling over the water: it is flight in contact with a surface i.e. it would be reasonably obvious that 'drain flight' would work, and equally obvious that 'drain swimming' would not. If you have a submarine whose swimming is bought as 'flight usable as swimming', that is a quite different thing for the perceiver, especially at 2000 fathoms, and especially if they have never seen the sub flying.

 

Again, this is a problem with adjustment powers, about which I rant with increasing frequency...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Now you just try really hard to make up a problem.

 

Drain is by defnition a somewhat metagamey effect. You need to target it at a power. Not telling a player with a Drain (Flight or Swimming) wich one version would work would just be one thing: Bad GM-ing.

 

I asume you aren't a Bad GM and thus are fully able to use this simple fix I presented you. No Problem at all.

 

Christopher, you've known me long enough to know that thinking up problems is never hard for me.

 

I don't build adjustment powers like that. I can not think of a good reason to, because a Drain that can stop any {single power} rarely if ever makes sense. I tend to build drains that affect groups of powers linked by special effects. it is having to think like that though that puts some people off Hero, because it is hardly intuitive.

 

I'm an awful GM, but not for that reason.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Not by RAW!

It should always be obvious what sort of movement power the character is using. While the character could hide the true nature (making swimming gestures while actually flying through water) this would fall under hidden use of a power - a stealth roll with AP penalty.

 

6.1.125: What's perceived:

That a power is in use

Where it comes from and what effect it has there,

Where it goes to and what effect it has there,

How it gets between those points,

What it looks like,

How strong it is.

 

RAW does not require or encourage you to say what the power actually is. Good GMing might suggest that approach, but I'd rather be a preemptive (but still awful) GM who does not let the problem arise, by not allowing people to buy single power adjustments, because they do not make sense.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

6.1.125: What's perceived:

That a power is in use

Where it comes from and what effect it has there,

Where it goes to and what effect it has there,

How it gets between those points,

What it looks like,

How strong it is.

 

RAW does not require or encourage you to say what the power actually is. Good GMing might suggest that approach, but I'd rather be a preemptive (but still awful) GM who does not let the problem arise, by not allowing people to buy single power adjustments, because they do not make sense.

But under movement powers:

"Movement Powers are Inobvious most of the time, but when they’re in use it becomes Obvious that the character is moving somehow, and thus usually Obvious what sort of Movement Power he’s using." 6E1 157

But you already said you don't allow Power Drains, only Special effect Drains. So you don't have any problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

But under movement powers:

"Movement Powers are Inobvious most of the time, but when they’re in use it becomes Obvious that the character is moving somehow, and thus usually Obvious what sort of Movement Power he’s using." 6E1 157

But you already said you don't allow Power Drains, only Special effect Drains. So you don't have any problem.

 

Yes, but usually moving through water is obviously swimming.

 

Whilst I might not have a problem, that is because I am compensating. I think it is a problem that needs resolution.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Yes, but usually moving through water is obviously swimming.

 

Whilst I might not have a problem, that is because I am compensating. I think it is a problem that needs resolution.

It needs a GM who hasn't fallen on his head. I asume there are enough out there, that there is no problem.

 

Propably most of the GM's don't even know what Steve Long said on Rules Question Forum and just eyeball it, without ever asking if they were right.

[casualplayer]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

That is surprising; if you have flight usable as swimming' date=' and you are swimming and get hit by a swimming drain, nothing happens. Odd.[/quote']

 

It is almost as if that Power Advantage is a BAD IDEA. How bleeding hard is it, if you have propulsion that works in different medium, to make a Multipower for it?

 

But this is how I would see the OP playing out in my game. Anything that isn't explicitly detailed and described in the RAW is just how I roll. A lot is going to depend on how the characters are created: if Princess Pita is timorous or cool-headed, if Sir Bastion is bold, arrogant or patient, if Evaso the Orc is bloodthirsty, cunning or foolhardy.

 

Evaso the Orc comes at Princess Pita, because she looks tasty, because she is the best-looking hostage he's ever seen, because he knows Sir Bastion will capitulate rather than see her even scratched, whatever. Sir Bastion orders PP to "Get behind me," and prays that she listens for once. Meta-mapminded, Bastion wants PP to be in the same hex as him and stay close because he knows he can hold and maneuver so that he is always between Evaso and the princess. If she stays close. Evaso the Orc may try to bull his way through and will probably get a longsword trepanation for his efforts but he is a crafty one, maybe even a orc genius, and instead he is going to try to go around. Meta-mapminded also, he knows that "around," without getting iron poisoning, is more than his half-move because of Bastion's reach. So he's going to try to spook Pita, put some distance between her and Bastion then go for her throat. So Evaso starts monologuing, talking about what he's going to do when he gets his hands on her, how feeble Bastion is, how soon Bastion and she will both be in the stewpot. If he sees an opening Evaso is going to go for it. And here's where the dice and rules come in.

 

Evaso is PRE Attacking Pita, and to some extent Bastion. If he gets Pita to bolt or Bastion to hesitate he's going to go for it. If he sees he has an advantage in speed or terrain, Evaso's going to go for it. Bastion is trying to bolster Pita's resistance to PRE Attacks by being forthright and true, lots of "He won't get past me while I live"s and such. Pita, depending on what type of princess she is, might freeze, run, scream, swoon or even get in front of Bastion to defiantly yell back at Evaso. Bastion might get impatient and attack, suffer a moment of doubt and fear, or feint a stumble to draw Evaso in.

 

If Evaso somehow has enough of a half-move to circle around Sir Bastion without entering his kill radius (a half-move of like 7"/14m!) and/or get Pita to step outside of that kill radius or convince himself that he can enter that kill radius without being killed, then he will go for it. Sir Bastion knows that he can continually interpose, not Interpose, himself between Evaso and Pita as long as Pita cooperates and Evaso doesn't come up with a new trick.

 

Real world examples have already been given that you can bypass someone by moving past if you are willing to risk an attack. If the blocker is ready and if they are fast enough. What seems like a flaw in the rules is actually a feature. If D&D had SPD and held actions it wouldn't need Attacks of Opportunity. HERO has both of those assets so it doesn't need to incorporate some HEROic version of AoO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

It needs a GM who hasn't fallen on his head. I asume there are enough out there, that there is no problem.

 

Propably most of the GM's don't even know what Steve Long said on Rules Question Forum and just eyeball it, without ever asking if they were right.

 

Interestingly inflammatory approach to the debate!

 

Do you think most people eyeballing it would have come to the conclusion that SL did? I would not have, but then I have fallen on my head, apparently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

It is almost as if that Power Advantage is a BAD IDEA. How bleeding hard is it' date=' if you have propulsion that works in different medium, to make a Multipower for it?[/quote']

 

Not hard, nor really the point: it is there and so may crop up in games I play in. Not if I am running them, because I am wise to its evil ways, but not everyone will know the ruling, and I think the ruling is counter intuitive. If the advantage does not do anything you can not do with other rules as well, and sows unnecessary complication, perhaps it should not be there, the books should be that much shorter, and no one would miss its passing?

 

But this is how I would see the OP playing out in my game. Anything that isn't explicitly detailed and described in the RAW is just how I roll. A lot is going to depend on how the characters are created: if Princess Pita is timorous or cool-headed, if Sir Bastion is bold, arrogant or patient, if Evaso the Orc is bloodthirsty, cunning or foolhardy.

 

Evaso the Orc comes at Princess Pita, because she looks tasty, because she is the best-looking hostage he's ever seen, because he knows Sir Bastion will capitulate rather than see her even scratched, whatever. Sir Bastion orders PP to "Get behind me," and prays that she listens for once. Meta-mapminded, Bastion wants PP to be in the same hex as him and stay close because he knows he can hold and maneuver so that he is always between Evaso and the princess. If she stays close. Evaso the Orc may try to bull his way through and will probably get a longsword trepanation for his efforts but he is a crafty one, maybe even a orc genius, and instead he is going to try to go around. Meta-mapminded also, he knows that "around," without getting iron poisoning, is more than his half-move because of Bastion's reach. So he's going to try to spook Pita, put some distance between her and Bastion then go for her throat. So Evaso starts monologuing, talking about what he's going to do when he gets his hands on her, how feeble Bastion is, how soon Bastion and she will both be in the stewpot. If he sees an opening Evaso is going to go for it. And here's where the dice and rules come in.

 

Evaso is PRE Attacking Pita, and to some extent Bastion. If he gets Pita to bolt or Bastion to hesitate he's going to go for it. If he sees he has an advantage in speed or terrain, Evaso's going to go for it. Bastion is trying to bolster Pita's resistance to PRE Attacks by being forthright and true, lots of "He won't get past me while I live"s and such. Pita, depending on what type of princess she is, might freeze, run, scream, swoon or even get in front of Bastion to defiantly yell back at Evaso. Bastion might get impatient and attack, suffer a moment of doubt and fear, or feint a stumble to draw Evaso in.

 

If Evaso somehow has enough of a half-move to circle around Sir Bastion without entering his kill radius (a half-move of like 7"/14m!) and/or get Pita to step outside of that kill radius or convince himself that he can enter that kill radius without being killed, then he will go for it. Sir Bastion knows that he can continually interpose, not Interpose, himself between Evaso and Pita as long as Pita cooperates and Evaso doesn't come up with a new trick.

 

Real world examples have already been given that you can bypass someone by moving past if you are willing to risk an attack. If the blocker is ready and if they are fast enough. What seems like a flaw in the rules is actually a feature. If D&D had SPD and held actions it wouldn't need Attacks of Opportunity. HERO has both of those assets so it doesn't need to incorporate some HEROic version of AoO.

 

Excellent description and characterisation. I have changed my mind over the course of this thread and I think that we can probably deal with the PP problem (although it was not actually the point of the thread, but an example of issues arising), with the rules as they are (holding PP so close, I might, playing Evaso, try and shove Bastion back and put them both on their posteriors...) but I still think there may be lacunas in the rules that could do with a look at, as detailed earlier in the thread. Once we have talked them through I can decide if I want a house rule, or at least have a decent chance of having the points to consider in mind if the situation crops up - which now I'm thinking about it, it certainly will.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Real world examples have already been given that you can bypass someone by moving past if you are willing to risk an attack. If the blocker is ready and if they are fast enough. What seems like a flaw in the rules is actually a feature. If D&D had SPD and held actions it wouldn't need Attacks of Opportunity. HERO has both of those assets so it doesn't need to incorporate some HEROic version of AoO.

Thanks. I was trying to them that since...the beginning of this thread.

 

Interestingly inflammatory approach to the debate!

 

Do you think most people eyeballing it would have come to the conclusion that SL did? I would not have, but then I have fallen on my head, apparently.

Not every single thing that might possibly be missunderstood needs a rulestext for it.

 

You and Hugh persistently asume that every GM they do not know will be a fool/incabable of deal with X in a balanced fashion and that his players will hate him for it. And that it is the rules palce to prevent it.

I on the other hand have absolute faith that those people I do not know are capable people. That they are capable GM's. That most people come with a little thinking to the results/solutions I figure out with Casual INT (I am smart and I know it.).

[Markdoc]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Excellent description and characterisation. I have changed my mind over the course of this thread

 

Someone changed their mind in the course of an internet discussion? I've already notified AP and Reuters!

 

and I think that we can probably deal with the PP problem (although it was not actually the point of the thread' date=' but an example of issues arising), with the rules as they are (holding PP so close, I might, playing Evaso, try and shove Bastion back and put them both on their posteriors...) but I still think there may be lacunas in the rules that could do with a look at, as detailed earlier in the thread. Once we have talked them through I can decide if I want a house rule, or at least have a decent chance of having the points to consider in mind if the situation crops up - which now I'm thinking about it, it certainly will.[/quote']

 

You're right here: the situation where you are trying to guard or block someone comes up repeatedly in our games, and the first time I can recall it was an issue was back in about 1986: our FH PCs were trying to get past a golem. I waited until it tried to attack another PC and then dived between its legs, rolled up onto my feet and hot-footed it down the passage. The GM was not pleased! However, the golem immediately shifted tactics and delayed. I'd gotten past, but no-one else could - except at risk of being squished like a bug. That led to a Mexican standoff that forced us to do what the GM wanted in the first place: find a way to neutralise it without fighting it.

 

Similar situations have come up repeatedly since then (including with players used to 3.5E and AoO) but we've never since had any problems resolving them as outlined above.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

You and Hugh persistently asume that every GM they do not know will be a fool/incabable of deal with X in a balanced fashion and that his players will hate him for it. And that it is the rules palce to prevent it.

 

I on the other hand have absolute faith that those people I do not know are capable people. That they are capable GM's. That most people come with a little thinking to the results/solutions I figure out with Casual INT (I am smart and I know it.).

 

Why do you need rules at all, then? Just trust your GM to weave an interesting, entertaining and equitable narrative resolving opposed actions in reasonable fashion.

 

We don't end up with hundreds of pages of rulebooks because we all trust the players and GM's to decide what's fair and good for the game and move on.

 

Is it too easy to get past an opponent? Change the rules to make it more chancy. Do you think your game would benefit from it being easier? Change the rules to make it easier. But assess the impact on the game. If the players find the GM constantly beats on characters who want to protect the innocent, and ensures they fail in that charge, don't be surprised when PC's with that goal become scarce or non-existent as frustration isn't all that much fun for the players. It doesn't matter whether you make it frustratingly difficult/impossible for players to succeed using rules, the power of opponents or the situations you set - players who are frustrated will look for options to make more successful characters.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Why do you need rules at all, then? Just trust your GM to weave an interesting, entertaining and equitable narrative resolving opposed actions in reasonable fashion.

 

We don't end up with hundreds of pages of rulebooks because we all trust the players and GM's to decide what's fair and good for the game and move on.

 

Is it too easy to get past an opponent? Change the rules to make it more chancy. Do you think your game would benefit from it being easier? Change the rules to make it easier. But assess the impact on the game. If the players find the GM constantly beats on characters who want to protect the innocent, and ensures they fail in that charge, don't be surprised when PC's with that goal become scarce or non-existent as frustration isn't all that much fun for the players. It doesn't matter whether you make it frustratingly difficult/impossible for players to succeed using rules, the power of opponents or the situations you set - players who are frustrated will look for options to make more successful characters.

Fine points. Just that we wer talking about the "how Usable as other form of Movement is Drained" thing, so it has nothing to do with what we said.