Enerjutsu

[rentauri]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Thats what I was assuming, hopefully I was correct. Martial Arts book, 6th edition, page 80

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

And how do you justifiy the trip? The reason why I brought up the staff and kick' date=' I paid for staff(HA) offensive strike (kick) and weapon element staff, acording to the rules I still cannot add the staff to the kick. So just because you paid for the manuever, doesn't mean you CAN use the manuever for every power. Now personally I don't like this rule but I'm just bringing up RAW and the question I believed that was asked if you could use the trip for every power. I'm just saying that the re is precident that to the effect of no.[/quote']

 

But a punch and a staff strike are very different as well, even if your hands are used for both. Also, many of the example Martial Arts give manuevers names like "Punch/Snap Kick" or "Elbow/Knee Strike". Are you supposed to choose one when you take the MA or can you use it as either? The RAW isn't very specific.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Well Enerjutsu seems unique in that the weapon elements are powers themselves not SFXs. The weapon element is listed as Usable with Blasts; Blasts Weapon Element is Free and the Elements Section were you normally list kicks' date=' swords, staffs abilities has [b']+1 Use Art with Ranged Killing [/b]and +1 Use Art with Drains. That said I would image that all Blast powers no matter the SFX are covered with theoretical Ranged Trip attack and if we wanted to use a Deadly Cutting Laser well you would need to buy the Weapon Element Ranged Killing Attack to do it.

 

Don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure it was GM option whether to allow "all Blasts" and such as one weapons element or to make the character buy a Weapons Element for each individual power.

[Greywind]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

But a punch and a staff strike are very different as well' date=' even if your hands are used for both. Also, many of the example Martial Arts give manuevers names like "Punch/Snap Kick" or "Elbow/Knee Strike". Are you supposed to choose one when you take the MA or can you use it as either? The RAW isn't very specific.[/quote']

It usually follows with the Style and Discipline. Normally you can define it as either when you make the attack.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Personally' date=' I would allow you to use [b']any Martial Maneuver [/b]with any attack power, as long as the Character has the Weapon Element for it (And I think one Element per power sounds fair).

 

Coming back to this because although I haven't expressed it very well I'm still having trouble getting my head around this. You would allow Ranged Disarm or Ranged Trip with a Smell/Taste Flash? Or a Hearing Group Darkness? Or a Sight based Image Power? Or Telepathy or Mental Illusion or Mental Blast (okay, I can kind of see that last one but you should get my point by now)? Or a Change Environment which did nothing but give a PER penalty? Or a Drain vs, well, anything?

 

I know you're probably going to jump on the fact that you said "attack power" and disregard the Mental Powers and Adjustment Powers listed (even if they are also Attack Powers) but that still leaves a few that I simply can't see any logical or mechanical reason to allow.

[rentauri]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Don't have the book with me' date=' but I'm pretty sure it was GM option whether to allow "all Blasts" and such as one weapons element or to make the character buy a Weapons Element for each individual power.[/quote']

 

The point was its unique in that it can be use by the power if the GM wishes to as it is listed that way. The Option is to set up to work like other Martial Arts.

 

You would allow Ranged Disarm or Ranged Trip with a Smell/Taste Flash?

 

Never Smelled or Tasted something so bad you dropped something or fell down?

 

Or a Drain vs' date=' well, anything?[/quote']

 

Strangely enough you can buy a +1 with Art Use with Drains so Enerjutsu seems to work with them on some level.

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Keep with all thsi in Mind, That Ranged Disarm is a element of the Core Book (6E2 61). Only ranged Martial Arts is from HSMA.

 

You would allow Ranged Disarm or Ranged Trip with a Smell/Taste Flash?

If you paid 4 points for the Martial maneuver and 1 for the Weapon Element, I don't see why not.

You have DC's you can convert to disarm Strenght, after all.

 

Or a Hearing Group Darkness? Or a Sight based Image Power?

Sight based images is tricky. Normally they would be out of the loop (because of not even having a DC). But thinking about it, why not? Casting an image that let's the enemy stumble sounds like a good trick for a Illusionist. And extra DC's can propably be converted to PERception Roll Penalties when used with "Martial Strike"

Hearing Group Darkness: What is the special effect? Again, this attack has no DC thus would propably no be affected at all by Martial Arts.

 

Or Telepathy or Mental Illusion or Mental Blast (okay' date=' I can kind of see that last one but you should get my point by now)?[/quote']

Afaik we never said anything about "Mental Martial Arts". Ranged Martial Arts is primarily for non-mental Range attacks (the LOS stuff). Once that are based on CON are easy.

Mental Illusion is easy: same tricks as Normal illusions work.

Also Mental Blast is so very much like a Stun beam it a no-brainer to let it work that way (pun not intended).

 

Or a Change Environment which did nothing but give a PER penalty?

Again, it's if that one even applies for lack of a DC-mechanic.

 

Or a Drain vs' date=' well, anything?[/quote']

Drain vs Movement Powers or STR are obviously possible.

Drain vs. Armor could let the Armor block movements for a moment.

Drain vs. INT could befuddle your perception for a moment, so he disarms/trips himself with the environment.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

But a punch and a staff strike are very different as well' date=' even if your hands are used for both. Also, many of the example Martial Arts give manuevers names like "Punch/Snap Kick" or "Elbow/Knee Strike". Are you supposed to choose one when you take the MA or can you use it as either? The RAW isn't very specific.[/quote']

 

Yup and there was a style of fencing that said you weren't supposed to use the strike manuevers unarmed even though you can buy the bare weapon element to use some of the other manuevers.

 

It seems that people are geting hung up on the staff and kick, but not the principal behind the rule. (And yes it does get muddled, I also remeber someone asking what was the point of buying weapon element for Lua when it didn't benefit you at all-by RAW.) Let me point out again-you don't nessecerly get to use all your manuevers with your weapon elements just because you paid points for it by RAW-now if a GM rules otherwise of course GM trumps (I myself don't follow the RAW in this case). So going back to the original question-find out from the GM what you can use with the martial art.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

And how do you justifiy the trip? The reason why I brought up the staff and kick' date=' I paid for staff(HA) offensive strike (kick) and weapon element staff, acording to the rules I still cannot add the staff to the kick. So just because you paid for the manuever, doesn't mean you CAN use the manuever for every power. Now personally I don't like this rule but I'm just bringing up RAW and the question I believed that was asked if you could use the trip for every power. I'm just saying that the re is precident that to the effect of no.[/quote']

 

I think we've seen lots of justifications for the Trip above. I also think your example mixes apples and oranges. The character paid for Enerjutsu with the default weapon element of Blast. He's using a Blast. If you told me my Martial Arts maneuvers purchased with the default weapon element of Staff could not be used with a Staff, I'd have issues with that as well.

 

I have no concerns with the fact I can't spend 1 point to use all my Enerjutsu maneuvers with a sword as well.

 

Yup and there was a style of fencing that said you weren't supposed to use the strike manuevers unarmed even though you can buy the bare weapon element to use some of the other manuevers.

 

If I'm building a character who is intended to fight both bare handed and with a weapon, I guess I would not buy that style of fencing, would I? I note, however, that SFX can vary. A strike can be a punch, kick, elbow strike or headbutt. The Karate MA even includes the Martial Strike defined as Punch/Snap Kick. I would not typically require a character to purchase the same maneuver twice to use varying SFX, although one could do so depending on the game. In such a case, however, it would seem reasonable to also require the Karate player to buy the Punch and Snap Kick separately. Karate also has weapon elements for common melee weapons - should we forbid use of the Side/Spin Kick with these?

 

While I see the same description of Fencing you do, I interpret this to mean that Fencing cannot have the 1 point weapon element for Bare Handed. Now, if a character wants to buy Fencing maneuvers and Dirty Infighting maneuvers, is it unreasonable to allow him to spend 1 point to use the common maneuvers both bare handed and with a Sword? I see no reason this player should be required to pay more points to get the same ability a Karate or Kung Fu user may achieve with 1 point weapon elements. To do otherwise simply encourages some Arts over others due to greater point efficiency. And, if that is your goal, such a rule will achieve it, so use such a rule for that game.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

I think we've seen lots of justifications for the Trip above. I also think your example mixes apples and oranges. The character paid for Enerjutsu with the default weapon element of Blast. He's using a Blast. If you told me my Martial Arts maneuvers purchased with the default weapon element of Staff could not be used with a Staff, I'd have issues with that as well.

 

I have no concerns with the fact I can't spend 1 point to use all my Enerjutsu maneuvers with a sword as well.

 

I'm at a disadvantage as I don't have these rules yet and quite fully look at the list but taken at face value. I see your point.

 

 

 

If I'm building a character who is intended to fight both bare handed and with a weapon' date=' I guess I would not buy that style of fencing, would I? [/quote']

 

That does depend on the game doesn't it? And if the GM allows what lists you can or can't use. My bad I confused the muto style (which limits what can be used barehanded) still with the fencing style, the description notes that it was designed for lighter weapons than a cutlass but for a swashbuckiling campaign it should be fine , but you shouldn't allow the fencer to by weapon elements for polearms or axes either. Iow if you are running a "historical/realistic' game, then this may be the only option. [

 

QUOTE=Hugh Neilson;2346676]ncing style I note, however, that SFX can vary. A strike can be a punch, kick, elbow strike or headbutt. The Karate MA even includes the Martial Strike defined as Punch/Snap Kick. I would not typically require a character to purchase the same maneuver twice to use varying SFX, although one could do so depending on the game. In such a case, however, it would seem reasonable to also require the Karate player to buy the Punch and Snap Kick separately. Karate also has weapon elements for common melee weapons - should we forbid use of the Side/Spin Kick with these?

 

As noted per RAW, yup you are not supposed to allow say kama with the use of spin kick.

 

While I see the same description of Fencing you do, I interpret this to mean that Fencing cannot have the 1 point weapon element for Bare Handed. Now, if a character wants to buy Fencing maneuvers and Dirty Infighting maneuvers, is it unreasonable to allow him to spend 1 point to use the common maneuvers both bare handed and with a Sword? I see no reason this player should be required to pay more points to get the same ability a Karate or Kung Fu user may achieve with 1 point weapon elements. To do otherwise simply encourages some Arts over others due to greater point efficiency. And, if that is your goal, such a rule will achieve it, so use such a rule for that game.

 

Actually if you look at the lists, certain styles allowed you to buy from other lists. now since certain lists have expanded since Ninja 4th, it may be more of a moot point. For example, if you defined your Karate as kickboxing, then you were allow to punch manuevers from the boxing style. Also in the rules, you are allowed to buy one manuever outside your style (2 from a generous GM). And if you buy a KS of a different style then you get use the manuevers which overlap for free. I.e. I have karate (shotokan) Kick (Offensive strike) then I buy KS Boxing, I can use Hook (Offensive stike) for free. (See page 12 of UMA 5th) I don't know if anyone if anyone is so restrictive on the style lists-I know I'm not. I just am pointing out that though this is the rules. Slight derail but as of 5thrv did any know that technically if you run heroic game, then martial manuevers are limited to the doubling of the base of strength? I.e if you have 10 STR and an offensive strike (no matter the sfx) then you can only add +2D6? It then goes that usually this is waived and you can just add straight to strength damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

But a punch and a staff strike are very different as well' date=' even if your hands are used for both. Also, many of the example Martial Arts give manuevers names like "Punch/Snap Kick" or "Elbow/Knee Strike". Are you supposed to choose one when you take the MA or can you use it as either? The RAW isn't very specific.[/quote']

 

Actually it is. You get Punch/snap kick as special effects for martial strike (karate) and you also get elbow/knee strike for martial strike (Muay Thai) if I'm not mistaken.

 

Martial arts and special effects can be tricky in this sense. If you ae too strict, then there are some people who will buy redundant manuevers because its in their style. (I know because I'm one of those orginally) But on the flip-side, I've herd the complaint that martial arts break the normal rules of powers and special effects. Should you buy offensive strike and define it anyway during the game as you like? Fwiw, I have bought power advantge variable special effect for martial strike to simulate that the character could do just about any type of strike he was trained in. Honestly, where to draw the line on special effects in regard to martial arts is I think a gray area depended on game/genre. In a super hero game, I don't think it matters as much, and maybe in heroic game either. But in a martial arts centered game? I think it matters more, the special effects help nuance each fighter to different from the next, and possibly mechanically if using the optional hit location rules. Consider this visually: each has offensive strike; the Boxer hits you with a mighty hook punch, the Karate guy hits you with a powerful sidekick, Tae kwon do guy lands an axe kick to you, Muay Tai throws a jumping elbow, and lastly Tai Chi guys lands a palm heel. Helps to define and roleplay combat I think. Btw, I'm not saying that one must pay strict adherence to the lists, as recommended if you don't like it, change it, I was for argument sake though just staying to the lists.

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

As noted per RAW' date=' yup you are not supposed to allow say kama with the use of spin kick.[/quote']

All Styles are simply using some of the Martial Maneuvers (there is a one page list) and giving them names. Things like offesive Strike, Defensive Strike and Martial Strike are part of nearly every style - under totally different names, with totally different bodyparts.

But no mater the name, it still just a defensive Strike.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

All Styles are simply using some of the Martial Maneuvers (there is a one page list) and giving them names. Things like offesive Strike, Defensive Strike and Martial Strike are part of nearly every style - under totally different names, with totally different bodyparts.

But no mater the name, it still just a defensive Strike.

 

And I said that mechanically, yup just the same. Unless you use the iptional hit location rules (which may have been discarded in 6th). With this boxing hook has a hit location of 2D6+1, whereas the karate kick does 3D6 location, but savate low kick does a 2D6+7 location roll. With these optional rules, you have a minor effect on combat-not only do to damage, but what can be hit. Say the target is standing behind a desk. Boxer can hit the target and karate guy can hit the target whereas the savatuer shouldn't be allowed. Now if all three have their hands tied then only the karate guy should be able to hit. His legs are still free. *Yes of course anyone can use the strike manuever-the free manuever, but I'm talking about martial manuevers that were paid for. P.s. Christopher did you know that, iirc, Steve Long outlawed the Football style?

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

And I said that mechanically' date=' yup just the same. Unless you use the iptional hit location rules (which may have been discarded in 6th).[/quote']

Selected Maneuvers from specific styles do have that optional hit location rule.

 

"Selected" and "Specific" are the important words here. 90% use just the plain, old hit location table.

 

Once you get the book (HSMA), read page 10 on "Knowledge Skills and new Styles".

It pretty much says:

If you have bought a Martial Strike in one style and have the KS for a different Style that also has a Martial Strike, you can use the version from either Martial Art.

Example is given with "Knife Hand" from karate and "Knee Killing Strike" from Muah Tai.

So if you buy boxing and Pay for the Cross (Defensive Strike), then invest in KS: Capoeira you can use "Bencao(Front Thrust Kick)" (also a Defensive Strike) with no extra Cost and without having to pay twice. And both manevuers have different totally different Origin points and Hit location areas.

 

The same applies with a Defensive Strike from Fencing and the Defensive Strike from Capoeira (as longs as you have both weapon elements).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Selected Maneuvers from specific styles do have that optional hit location rule.

 

"Selected" and "Specific" are the important words here. 90% use just the plain, old hit location table.

 

Once you get the book (HSMA), read page 10 on "Knowledge Skills and new Styles".

It pretty much says:

If you have bought a Martial Strike in one style and have the KS for a different Style that also has a Martial Strike, you can use the version from either Martial Art.

Example is given with "Knife Hand" from karate and "Knee Killing Strike" from Muah Tai.

So if you buy boxing and Pay for the Cross (Defensive Strike), then invest in KS: Capoeira you can use "Bencao(Front Thrust Kick)" (also a Defensive Strike) with no extra Cost and without having to pay twice. And both manevuers have different totally different Origin points and Hit location areas.

 

The same applies with a Defensive Strike from Fencing and the Defensive Strike from Capoeira (as longs as you have both weapon elements).

 

Did you miss where I quoted those rules to Hugh? I admit that that post got messy. Note though you are paying for another martial art-(I believe you are to suppose to by the KS at 11- for 5th but I would accept an 8-). So instead of buying redundant manuevers, the rules allow you to use the same mechanics with a seperate special effect. You are not changing the special effect just because you want a different special effect. This is a way to get around the staff and kick I mentioned earlier. Just buy KS: Bo and you can use your offensive strike now with the staff. By the way having two different styles become useful because if someone uses analyze style on you, and you switch style, the bonus no longer affects you (unless you switch back).

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

In the case of the Bo/Kick issue, don't you also have to buy a weapon element?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

In the case of the Bo/Kick issue' date=' don't you also have to buy a weapon element?[/quote']

 

Oops I forgot to mention that you do. And proper weapon familararity too.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

And I found a better anaology of what I was trying to say than the kick-staff. Consider this; If I have a boxer and he bought martial grab defined as clinch does that mean that he can now also use a joint lock because its bought as a martial grab?

 

(Note that in ninja hero 4th joint lock were bought this way.)

 

And if special effect does matter, can my boxer also use his legs to martail grab because its defined as a Tai chi leg lock?

 

(Note here afaik, there is no tai chi leg lock described. However the move is a real one. Its where you and your opponent are facing each other and I place my foot behind the opponents foot hooking it so it doesn't move and I bend my leg so the shin goes across the opponents thus locking the leg and allowing my hands free.)

[Christougher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

And I found a better anaology of what I was trying to say than the kick-staff. Consider this; If I have a boxer and he bought martial grab defined as clinch does that mean that he can now also use a joint lock because its bought as a martial grab?

 

(Note that in ninja hero 4th joint lock were bought this way.)

 

And if special effect does matter, can my boxer also use his legs to martail grab because its defined as a Tai chi leg lock?

 

 

Yes and yes, with a condition for each: If you're not talking about the named Joint Lock maneuver from UMA or the like, you're free to define the SFX of your grab any way you want.

 

Secondly (though it applies to the first as well) you only can use the secondary styles' maneuvers if you've already studied the style. You do not have to pay for the maneuver twice. But paying for the maneuver does NOT teach you every style's use of that maneuver.

 

Chris.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

I would say "yes he can if he has also purchased maneuvers in the style which includes these variants of the Martial Grab". I recall looking at the MA lists when I commented on the punch/snap kick description. Kung Fu (in the 6e core) had Joint Lock/Grab else for Martial Grab.

 

The result, to me, is that the character purchasing skill with a variety of martial arts is more versatile, with more options for how to deliver the same game mechanics.

 

The tai chi leg lock is another matter, however. Martial grab follows all the rules for Grab, which includes

The Grabber must use both hands/arms to gain the full effect of a Grab. If he uses only one hand' date=' he’s at -5 STR to hold on (but can use his other arm to make other attacks in later Phases)[/quote']

 

Using the legs violates that rule. Perhaps a 1 point maneuver element that permits use of both legs rather than the arms would be appropriate. You get your hands back, but clearly you won't be able to leap, run, etc. while this maneuver is in effect. I only have Core accessible from work - anyone know whether the MA books address the possibility of a grab using the legs rather than the arms, or that otherwise leaves the arms free?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

I would say "yes he can if he has also purchased maneuvers in the style which includes these variants of the Martial Grab". I recall looking at the MA lists when I commented on the punch/snap kick description. Kung Fu (in the 6e core) had Joint Lock/Grab else for Martial Grab.

 

The result, to me, is that the character purchasing skill with a variety of martial arts is more versatile, with more options for how to deliver the same game mechanics.

 

The tai chi leg lock is another matter, however. Martial grab follows all the rules for Grab, which includes

 

Using the legs violates that rule. Perhaps a 1 point maneuver element that permits use of both legs rather than the arms would be appropriate. You get your hands back, but clearly you won't be able to leap, run, etc. while this maneuver is in effect. I only have Core accessible from work - anyone know whether the MA books address the possibility of a grab using the legs rather than the arms, or that otherwise leaves the arms free?

 

I agree with your post.

 

For using legs rather than arms, I've seen the use of extra limbs (perhaps a small limitation) on it.

 

Now to my point that was very round-about. Keeping in mind that the aforemention punch, kick and grab we know that all of these use the characteristic strength. Now depending how one describes the use of strength, then there are limitation on that use of strength. Even if one buys martial arts, there are still rules describing the use of said strength, based on special effect. So going back to the OP question about blast and ranged martial arts, does just buying it can you use any blast-no matter what and is there any limitations that could be applied to said attack above just the martial manuever? I say based on martial arts, the answer is it depends on the GM and special effect. Just buying the skill or element doesn't guarantee that you can automatically use any blast with any technique.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Fwiw I should rename the Tai Chi leg lock to leg trap, you get more results on search engines.

 

Originally Posted by 6e v2 p 65The Grabber must use both hands/arms to gain the full effect of a Grab. If he uses only one hand, he’s at -5 STR to hold on (but can use his other arm to make other attacks in later Phases)

 

I re-read the rules for grab (there 5th rev but the same here) because you mentioned that the leg trap I am describing is violating the quoted rule. I want to point out a few things for consideration. The rules state that the arms are what is typically grabbed but could be other limbs. I think here the implied is yes you can use your arms to grab someones legs, like in wrestling. But there is no probition against leg versus leg per se. So IF I'm allowed to substitute the legs for arms, then the question is do I get full strength or -5 strength. I can see the initial answer would be -5 because I technically am using only one leg to trap the opponents. I would say though that if you consider that you still need to have access to the other leg in order to perform this move then you shouldn't be penalized. I look at what would the effects be if my legs were shackeld together? I couldn't do this move without a major penalty. And lastly, even when grabbed with GM permission, you are allowd certain attacks. Which ones of course is GM discertion. Typically everyone strike manuever with a decent special effect. Heck I allow two-bit thugs an elbow shot if grabbed. So you COULD allow the Tai Chi guy to punch the person he trapped, just not maybe all his martial manuevers. So I think that a with a generous GM, the leg trap is not nesscerily illegal, but it definitely is bordering it.

[steriaca]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Well Enerjutsu seems unique in that the weapon elements are powers themselves not SFXs. The weapon element is listed as Usable with Blasts; Blasts Weapon Element is Free and the Elements Section were you normally list kicks' date=' swords, staffs abilities has [b']+1 Use Art with Ranged Killing [/b]and +1 Use Art with Drains. That said I would image that all Blast powers no matter the SFX are covered with theoretical Ranged Trip attack and if we wanted to use a Deadly Cutting Laser well you would need to buy the Weapon Element Ranged Killing Attack to do it.

 

When I created "Energy Blaster Combat Art", I thought that the GM would put resable limits on the 'use art with' list. Remember to use not 'game sence' but 'comen sence', and also remember that the GM is god in that world. Also remember, if the GM lets you do it, he can also let the NPCs do it also. So what is an advantage to your player is also an advantage to his charaters.