Hero-D&D system merge?

[Baalbamoth]

Hi all,

 

First, let me preface that I live in a small town with few gamers, in my exp it's nearly impossible to get these guys to play any game but D&D, hand them a 6.0 book and they'd prolly throw it at you.

 

That said, if I could merge the two and tell them "it's 2.0 skills n powers D&D w some house rules" I think I could get it over on them.

 

I'd like to use HGS martial arts/manuvers but w D&D stats and D20 based. Using + to Ocv as + to hit etc... Has anyone ever merged the the systems like this?

[Christopher]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

I think there is a big difference. Especially the Bell-Curve is hard to translate to D20. I can give you teh math:

Both Systems have 10- as 50% Chance of Success.

 

In D20 every +/-1 means +/-5% CoS, always.

In HERO every +/-1 means roughly +/-10% CoS. so a Hero +1 is a D20 +2.

 

+9 means 95% CoS in D20. -9 means 5% CoS

In HERO those points are +5 (15-) and -5(5-) respectively.

Anything beyond/below that is only good to keep otehr modifiers at bay.

 

 

The fact that Armor actually prevents damage and that there is a STUN characteristic, means that healers aren't (absolutely) nessesary and that you don't need saving throws (and related things like evasion).

 

The entire action/multiattack/defensive action system is totally different (SPD & Abort vs. Multi-BaB and Attack of Opportunity).

 

Sorry, but I see litle chance to disguise hero as any other system, especiall not d20 and all it's flaws (the most impotant being Armor not stopping Damage).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

That said, if I could merge the two and tell them "it's 2.0 skills n powers D&D w some house rules" I think I could get it over on them.

 

I'd like to use HGS martial arts/manuvers but w D&D stats and D20 based. Using + to Ocv as + to hit etc... Has anyone ever merged the the systems like this?

 

I did present the game like a D20 game...[ATTACH=CONFIG]43826[/ATTACH]

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Wait a sec Chris, that seems like a challenge... What if we were to get rid of AOOs and adopt the basic combat system of Hero Games? 1) get rid of the speed system, everybody gets 1 action... maybe have some large point cost to get an additional half action at the end of a round etc, or 2) just assume everyone has a spd of 2, allow people to pull actions etc as per hero games. in regards to dammage & hitting, AC would remain as DCV, if a hit happens apply damage as per D&D (no reduction of damage) nothing else would change (saves, etc) Am I crazy to think that might work?

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

I did present the game like a D20 game...

 

that is an awesome way to present it to people... but I want to get rid of the piles o dice (multiplyers, stun/bod counting etc) and 3d6 rolls and move it to a d20.

 

In my mind if I can just get the D20 in there, I can justify everything else as "house rules"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

I have an extensive set of conversion materials up here: Conversions

 

There are both a AD&D 2e and a D&D 3.x conversion presented.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Wait a sec Chris' date=' that seems like a challenge... What if we were to get rid of AOOs and adopt the basic combat system of Hero Games? 1) get rid of the speed system, everybody gets 1 action... maybe have some large point cost to get an additional half action at the end of a round etc, or 2) just assume everyone has a spd of 2, allow people to pull actions etc as per hero games. in regards to dammage & hitting, AC would remain as DCV, if a hit happens apply damage as per D&D (no reduction of damage) nothing else would change (saves, etc) Am I crazy to think that might work?[/quote']

 

from: Conversion Styles

 

Total Conversion

One of the approaches a GM can take is an attempt to do an as exact as possible conversion of whatever system they are coming from, bending the mechanics of the new game system to model the mechanics of the old system as closely as possible.

 

PROS

The only real advantage to this approach is that if you do it correctly, even the most contrary and reluctant player will be able to make the transition to the new game without much grounds for complaint (other than why are we even bothering to do this?).

 

CONS

However, while this may seem to be a logical approach on the surface, it is actually replete with problems.

 

For starters, it takes the most work of all the possible approaches, by far. In addition to all the other obstacles inherent to transitioning your game, now you also have to overcome difficult mechanical conundrums, which also often have ripple effects such that even one seemingly minor change can have a massive effect much like throwing a pebble into a pond.

 

Secondly, and this is the kicker, if you're undergoing a conversion just to make the new system exactly like the previous system, the logical question is why are you converting in the first place? If you want to make the new system work like the old system you might as well just stick with the old system.

 

HOW CAN YOU USE THIS SITE TO DO THIS KIND OF CONVERSION?

If this style of conversion is your preference, bad news. The approach taken by the conversion resources is not a Total Conversion approach, so if you are intent on doing this you'll likely find the material presented here frustrating. You can still use large chunks of the material provided to get you closer to a Total Conversion, but you'll have to do the work to bend the mechanics to fit the old system yourself.

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

from: Conversion Styles

 

If you want to make the new system work like the old system you might as well just stick with the old system.

 

HOW CAN YOU USE THIS SITE TO DO THIS KIND OF CONVERSION?

If this style of conversion is your preference, bad news. The approach taken by the conversion resources is not a Total Conversion approach, so if you are intent on doing this you'll likely find the material presented here frustrating. You can still use large chunks of the material provided to get you closer to a Total Conversion, but you'll have to do the work to bend the mechanics to fit the old system yourself.

 

I am playing in a pathfinder game now, the players will not play anything other than D&D, I hate the pathfinder feat and AOO systems and need to get rid of them to speed up the game. Switching in the champs manuver and combat system (minus the PD dammage reduction etc.) I think would do that. I'm not sure what ripples I'll hit trying this but I think I can prepair for some of them...

 

So to me its the only choice I got... if Fantasy Hero is not possible, and D&D must be a part of it... what is possible?

 

I dont have a problem with the work involved.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

From what I am getting you are looking at taking elements of Hero and use them in the DnD system. The major issue I see is that DnD and D20 for that mater are not tool kit systems and despite a healthy selection of house rules don't take well to most anything.

 

To be honest the skill systems in DnD and Hero are not all that different when you look at the formulas (base roll + skill level -/+ modifiers) the attribute roll being in Hero based on the type of skill ([9*(attribute/5)] or [8-, 10-, 11-] depending on the points spent to buy the skill) and in DnD the base roll is (D20 + attribute Modifier) so if you are looking to keep the Polyhedral Dice then there isn't much you can change there other then maybe make DnD a roll under system and that will have problems of it's own.

 

For the marital maneuvers you could make a new feat for each style that gives you most if not all the Maneuvers and treat a each +1DC as a +2 on your damage rolls and each +/-1 to OCV as a bonus to hit and a +/1 to DCV as a bonus to your AC.

 

As for the powers in DnD I think you are flat out of luck since DnD has nothing that general.

[Tasha]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Wait a sec Chris' date=' that seems like a challenge... What if we were to get rid of AOOs and adopt the basic combat system of Hero Games? 1) get rid of the speed system, everybody gets 1 action... maybe have some large point cost to get an additional half action at the end of a round etc, or 2) just assume everyone has a spd of 2, allow people to pull actions etc as per hero games. in regards to dammage & hitting, AC would remain as DCV, if a hit happens apply damage as per D&D (no reduction of damage) nothing else would change (saves, etc) Am I crazy to think that might work?[/quote']

 

Assuming that everyone is Spd 2. Then you could do the AD&D 1st/2nd edition thing of for 10points you take an extra full action every other round, 2x actions every round for 20points. This is a simplified way of dealing with Spd 3 and Spd 4.

 

OCV vs DCV could be seen as a houserule esp with Armor absorbing damage.

 

AOO's are gone, but taking a Delay doesn't mess with where you are in the Initiative list

 

It could work. you could even use the funny dice (ie d8's, d10's, and d12's with a little imagination) (ie 1d6 Hero = 1d6 D&D, 1d6+1Hero = 1d8D&D, 1.5d6Hero = 1d10D&D , 2d6 Hero is either 1d12 D&D or 2d6 D&D depending on feel) heck as long as you assume that all weapons do killing Damage and use the Hero Hit Locations chart you could use the damage dice of D&D without much fudging. I would convert armor to Hero, otherwise people will die fast.

 

It may be worth it to get your players started in hero. Remember that d20 shares many things with Hero due to the Influence That Monte Cook had on the rules. Before he worked on 3.x D&D he was the Hero System Line editor for Iron Crown Enterprises (who used to publish the system back in the champions 3rd edition days).

[Christopher]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Wait a sec Chris' date=' that seems like a challenge... What if we were to get rid of AOOs and adopt the basic combat system of Hero Games? 1) get rid of the speed system, everybody gets 1 action... maybe have some large point cost to get an additional half action at the end of a round etc, or 2) just assume everyone has a spd of 2, allow people to pull actions etc as per hero games. in regards to dammage & hitting, AC would remain as DCV, if a hit happens apply damage as per D&D (no reduction of damage) nothing else would change (saves, etc) Am I crazy to think that might work?[/quote']

Then you would play in a Hero that has all the bugs of D&D*, none of the Advantages of Hero, additional bugs/inconsistencies from your conversion and a ton of work.

 

I could see it working if you simplified some stuff:

Give all heroes the same SPD (3 or 4), while keeping most enemies at 2.

Not tracking Endurance at first.

Only use a fraction of the Maneuvers to start with (only Dodge and Dive for Cover, not Block)

Only use basic mechanics at first (Killing and Normal Damage), not Drains, Flashes.

 

 

*Armor not preventing Damage is the bigest bug I can think of. I know no other RGP-system that ever even considered that approach. It makes unarmored designs hard too impossible, requires you to have a healer for long/repeated combats, required the creation of Saving throws. It's about the last concept I would introduce into HERO.

Superdodgy types in HERO: Combat luck, high DCV. Maybe expand combat Luck vs. Flashes and Drains.

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

actually I think most RPG systems began with mechanics like AC, tunnels and trolls, villians and vigillanties, etc etc. all because some guy named Gygax had an idea about turning a minature war game into some kinda small unit fantasy game and didnt work too hard on making the system easy or rational, and thats the brunt of it I think...

 

the d20 is the universal symbol for gaming, and too many gamers have such fond memories of that time they rolled the perfect backed up crit against the BBEG, its nearly impossible to get a majority of them to consider a game with sooo many differences,

 

its even harder to keep them playing it, add two books that weigh over 9lbs and tell them "and these are just the core books, and I have five other back packs full of previous edditions and supplements with optional rules and write ups" and you can actually see fear in their eyes.

 

While breaking out a "basic" version of the uber game makes them feel like they are playing the special olympics version. which do you want to feel; overwhelmed with unbelieveably detailed material and rules or retarded because you really dont want to delve into all that? or do you just wanna go back and play that semi broken game you already know and love?

 

Thats why I think that avalanche gifts PDF is so awesome, it looks like a indegogo game, not the ubergame hero system is, but I cant even get away with that...

 

Dont get me wrong IMHO Hero is hands down the best, most perfected, most rational and modifyable system ever devised... its just too hard for small town me to get average joe D&D gamer over their emotional attachment to D&D and interested in something better(*).

 

I think I'm going to follow KX's plan for the manuvers, I dont plan on adopting the hero games armor or powers system (even though tasha is right... it is converable its just too much work for the benifit IMHO) I will probably do the speed thing (but as a feat rather than point cost) and regarding that... monks in pathfinder already have "styles" they can take, each feat being a different manuver, three feats making a full style (but the feats get more and more powerful as the character levels, so I will probably do something slightly different here)

 

Side note- in pathfinder some armors and defenses do reduce dammage (just not a lot) and its more easy to create a low armor superdodgy character with an outragious AC than it is to create a high armor high AC character that puts out the same damage (essentially I think that Pathfinder is broken because the feat system is out of control... something else I hope I can fix or improve with this rule addition)

 

And I guess that brings up another + for HGS... in Pathfinder you have basic rules then 200+ feats, each one that may break a basic rule, take 5 characters each mid level with 10 or so feats, how many rule breaks do you think your going to have to deal with in a typical night of gaming? (ans:too many for me) where as no powers in HGS break any basic rules...

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

PS. one of the biggest problems I forsee in this is with feats and abilities which give the character additional attacks ala two weapon fighting and monk hth attacks etc. what do you do when a character in a game can launch 8+ attacks in a round? do each use the same manuver? or do I gotta get rid of multi attacks in general (which would greatly GREATLY harm fighter classes and amp spell casters) maybe I just give the fighters the higher spd options?!?!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

If getting rid of all that then why aren't you just playing D20? It would be lots simpler...

 

Piles of dice are only an issue in Superheroes, otherwise there are fewer dice (and they are all six sided). If you want to get rid of STUN/BOD counting then you can just count STUN and do the same BODY as the number of dice rolled. That gives you the same average BODY and allows you to distinguish between being close to unconscious and close to death.

 

I also think the 3D6 roll is a good thing as it means that there is a greater emphasis on skills than with a D20 system. However, you could just replace 3D6 with a D20 if you really want.

 

I didn't want to play D20, I wanted to play HERO but I presented it like a D20 to ensure the players I was talking to gave it a fair chance and were not too put off by a completely different look.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Isn;t merging D&D and Hero a sign of the apocalypse?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

There are several points in this, which I will address separately for clarity.

 

I am playing in a pathfinder game now' date=' the players will not play anything other than D&D, [/quote']

 

...If this is axiomatic, your players simply will not play anything other than D&D, then they will not play HERO whether you convert ideas or setting, and they will not play a homebrew hybrid wherein you attempt to splice elements of both games together.

 

I mean, obviously. If Joe will only eat eggs over easy is true, then Joe will not eat scrambled eggs or sunny side up eggs or steak and eggs or imitation eggs, or a souffle or any other egg like substance. Absolute statements are either true or not true.

 

Thus, if your players WILL NOT play anything other than D&D is a true statement, then proceed no further with some other game as they WILL NOT play it.

 

I hate the pathfinder feat and AOO systems and need to get rid of them to speed up the game.

 

The D&D and HERO System combat mechanics are more similar than not.

 

Many of the combat feats are directly analogous to maneuvers and talents in the hero system.

 

Attacks of Opportunity mainly exist in D&D because you can attack and then move, and cannot abort. AoO are an attempt to provide tactical flexibility to avoid or blur the turn based nature of the game. Personally, I don't like AoO's either as a practical matter as they greatly slow the game down. It is actually possible to model AoO's in the HERO System (and I provide a couple of variations in one of the conversion documents for those who like the mechanic).

 

However, the trade off from AoO and feats to Aborts / SPEED and maneuvers / talents is not all that compelling of a difference in and of itself.

 

The combat model is solid and functional and I personally like it very much, but objectively it isn't that much better or different than other game's combat mechanics and is arguably less good at modeling specific genres or settings than targeted custom built systems.

 

The value proposition of the HERO System is it's extremely flexible character definition capabilities, and its facility for using it to run just about any kind of campaign in just about any kind of genre without having to learn new systems for each.

 

Switching in the champs manuver and combat system (minus the PD dammage reduction etc.) I think would do that.

 

Why do you think this exactly? HERO System combat is renowned for its slowness. I always found it to be about the same speed as D&D 3e in empirical terms, but most people feel that HERO System combat takes longer to resolve than most games due to its hyper attention to detail and unbounded array of possible custom effects which often require resolution when they interact.

 

 

I'm not sure what ripples I'll hit trying this but I think I can prepair for some of them...

 

Almost all game systems are formal systems, with some bedrock / axiomatic statements or premises upon which layer after layer of further statements are constructed. The more complicated the system, the more elaborate the balancing act involved and the more subtle the interactions between different elements of the system.

 

If you start pulling out parts, changing others, adding in new parts, obviously the chance for side effects and unintended consequences are high. Care and attention to detail are necessary to avoid creating problems or breaking the system altogether.

 

It's no different than if you took the case off of some kind of complex machinery and started pulling out parts, splicing lines, bolting in new things.

 

It's not that it can't be done, but expertise and care are needed to do it right.

 

 

So to me its the only choice I got... if Fantasy Hero is not possible, and D&D must be a part of it... what is possible?

 

Your opening premise and this premise are mutually exclusive. Either your players will play something other than D&D or they will not.

 

If your original statement is true something that resembles D&D is not actually D&D and therefore will not be played.

 

If this statement is true, then the next premise under attack is "D&D must be a part of it". Why must it?

 

Basically, your operating assumptions seem muddled to me.

 

I dont have a problem with the work involved.

Then go for it. Just do the work for its own sake, and if no one wants to play it oh well. Hopefully you derive some enjoyment from the process itself. If they do play it, great.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

its even harder to keep them playing it, add two books that weigh over 9lbs and tell them "and these are just the core books, and I have five other back packs full of previous edditions and supplements with optional rules and write ups" and you can actually see fear in their eyes.

 

Oh, is that all? Just get the Hero System 6th Edition Basic Rulebook (available in the online store for only $19.99), which contains everything essential to the Hero system, boiled down to a single book about 3/8" thick. Then compare that to the D&D system where you have the Player's Handbook, the GM's Handbook, Bestiary, class guides, books of feats, prestige class books, etc. for 50 or 60 pounds of books . . . and tell them that EVERYTHING they need to play any game ever is in that one slim paperback.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

That's like trying to merge a stone age flint axe with a Phased plasma rifle with a 50 megawatt range. Pig and elephant DNA just don't splice...

[Baalbamoth]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Firstly, to address some points shrike brought up...

 

If you wish to apply critical thinking and hard logic to my statements, you'd first have to begin by asking the question "what is D&D" or if we want to avoid the re-definition game, what will the players I game with percieve as D&D? I couldent answer the question outright but I'd say the first requirement for a game to be percieved as D&D is the use of a D20 for skill and combat resolution. As to "why must D&D be a part of it?" I would point toward my other posting where I went into the emotional connection many players have with D&D and D20's over 3d6 resolutions.

 

and I'm sure your right, by changing things the way I am planning, I may change things so much it isnt a system they want to play, in which case I think your also right in that I will simply enjoy the process and maybe make the system I want to run more than the system others wish to play which would be fine with me.

 

next, because ""Many of the combat feats are directly analogous to maneuvers and talents in the hero system" is the only reason why I think it may be possible to merge the systems (regardless of the amount of work, re-writing, and playtesting that will still be required)

 

Regarding the interchange of feats/AOO and manuvers speed etc... In champions the things I felt slowed down HGS are: the large ammount of dice counting, applying defenses, deducting from END, BOD, and STUN, various types of attacks (drains etc) and of course the variable spd system. if you eliminate the majority of those things (limit the spd system, keep one roll to hit, get rid of damage reduction via defenses etc) I think the whole game will speed up, and I would see that as an advantage.

 

With pathfinder/D&D the major slow downs are the feats which always seem to need to be looked up again and again with new feats being added every other level (IE power creep), and the many ways basic rules are broken by feats (manuvers dont do this), and AOOs which cause an action to be halted and other attacks/effects applied before the action can be completed, etc. elimate those and I think D&D combat speeds up.

 

hopefully with these changes I can make a dynamic and fast resolving combat system without too much loss in detail.

 

Zeropont- like I said, then you feel like your playing the special olympics version of the game, and the negitive associations with that... the same reason why many people switched from D&D to "ädvanced D&D" even though they may have actually prefered the simplicity of the box games. and I totally agree with the evaluation of D&D 3.5, 4.0 was a bit more streamlined, and pathfinder more so than that (at least at its onset) I only hope 5.0 is as mod-able as they say it will be.

 

Nusord- tell that to the pigefant in my basement... and "flint axes and plasma rifles" sounds like a damn cool game to me...

[Zeropoint]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Zeropont- like I said, then you feel like your playing the special olympics version of the game, and the negitive associations with that...

 

So you don't want to bring out the main Hero books because they're too big. And you don't want to bring out the Basic Rulebook because it's too small. And you want to make Hero as much like D&D as possible.

 

At this point, as much as I like Hero, I have to wonder if you might be better off trying Pathfinder instead. If you're worried about looking stuff up all the time, you can reduce that by sticking to the core book; Pathfinder powered up the core classes to make them competitive with all the aftermarket super-classes and feats available for D&D.

 

I hope I don't sound snarky here; it's just that it's starting to sound like Hero is not the appropriate solution to your current needs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Firstly, to address some points shrike brought up...

Regarding the interchange of feats/AOO and manuvers speed etc... In champions the things I felt slowed down HGS are: the large ammount of dice counting, applying defenses, deducting from END, BOD, and STUN, various types of attacks (drains etc) and of course the variable spd system. if you eliminate the majority of those things (limit the spd system, keep one roll to hit, get rid of damage reduction via defenses etc) I think the whole game will speed up, and I would see that as an advantage.

 

There was a lot of things I started to go point by point on, but this paragraph pretty much made me lose interest in further discourse.

 

I read this as "If you remove all the various things that distinguish the HERO System from other systems, the whole game will speed up, and that would be a good thing."

 

So...eh. I think it a fools errand, but your time is your own to use as you will. Good luck to you sir, and good day.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

My friends were also stubborn about leaving D&D/Pathfinder, but after a few gaming sessions with Hero, they really enjoy it quite a bit. If you're the GM, you pick the gaming system right? Just tell your friends to give it a fair chance. Here's some other things I would suggest doing:

1. Read the hero rules through and through (maybe you already did this). You don't need to memorize every last detail but you should know how to look up a certain rule quickly.

2. Ask your friends what concept they have in mind for their characters. Make the characters yourself and let them tweak the characters later. If they don't seem to like a certain power or skill they have, let them sell it back and spend the XP elsewhere (once they've figured out more about how the system works).

3. Keep some of the more complicated hero rules out of the game and introduce them slowly. Leave out things like abort, hit locations, knockback, etc for the first night. At the second session, then explain how aborts work. Third session, explain hit locations. And so on. When you feed your players the rules slowly, they are more likely to get a grasp on them instead of flooding them with information. Make these first few sessions super easy with plenty of role playing opportunity. The role playing will help them get familiar with the campaign world. And keeping it easy prevents a total party wipe just because they don't know how to Dodge.

 

Before you know it, you'll have a fun campaign in a new game system that your players just might enjoy. I can't guarantee success but I can almost certainly guarantee this. Your players will have more fun playing the Hero rules as written than some Frankenstein cobbled together Hero/D&D hybrid.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

Oh' date=' is that all? Just get the Hero System 6th Edition Basic Rulebook (available in the online store for only $19.99), which contains everything essential to the Hero system, boiled down to a single book about 3/8" thick. Then compare that to the D&D system where you have the Player's Handbook, the GM's Handbook, Bestiary, class guides, books of feats, prestige class books, etc. for 50 or 60 pounds of books . . . and tell them that EVERYTHING they need to play any game ever is in that one slim paperback.[/quote']

 

THEN tell them that "everything they need to play" means that someone now has to write (sorry, build) all of those things in the additional books they're "saving" by not buying.

 

Seriously, I like hero, but there is a value in having things already built for you.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

IMO, you should either play a d20 supers game (M&M is popular, you may be able to get Silver Age Sentinels in d20 flavor in PDF), or do a Hero game using just the Basic Rules, and keeping the presentation to the players very simplified, and D&D-flavored.

 

See this thread to get an idea on how flexible you can be in presenting the game simply.

 

Also, pay attention to Killer Shrike. His site's an amazing resource for this sort of thing.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Hero-D&D system merge?

 

THEN tell them that "everything they need to play" means that someone now has to write (sorry' date=' [i']build[/i]) all of those things in the additional books they're "saving" by not buying.

 

Seriously, I like hero, but there is a value in having things already built for you.

 

There was also value in having basic rules plus supplements and expanded rules, so you could get in cheap but then buy more as you could afford it. It had the added advantage of allowing me to ignore supplements that nobody in my group were interested in anyway.