Alternate Benchmarks

[Dragonfly]

Hey folks!

 

The benchmarks included in the HERO System are fine, but they’ve never quite suited my style of play. I developed the following benchmarks for a campaign that I hope to run when Champions Complete is released. Two primary factors informed their design:

 

1) Setting Concerns: I’m trying to design a setting that has less of a gap between “normals” and “supers” than your standard Champions campaign. In this setting a lumbering stone man would probably have a DEX well-below that of your average high-school gymnast and well-trained soldier is likely to have a higher CON than a spritely, Tinker Bell style heroine. Mind you, “supers” in this campaign would still outstrip “normals” in all sorts of ways. A super-speedster would have the aforementioned gymnast licked in terms of DEX, and super-strong superheroes would still be able to bench press dump trucks. It’s just that a character whose only super-power is “eye beams” won’t automatically be faster, stronger and more durable than normal humans. They’ll probably rank with well-trained and fit “normals,” because superheroes are constantly training and engaged in strenuous activity, but they’ll be within that normal human range. I’m not saying that all superhero games should run this way. I just want this one to run this way.

 

2) Symmetry: This is, perhaps, a bit obsessive of me, but it always bothered me a little that the existing benchmarks didn’t “play the same” at each category – especially when it came to damage and resilience.

 

Explanation: Take two “Average” characters built using the current benchmarks – Average Joe and Average Stan. They each have STR 10, PD 4, and STUN 20. Average Joe punches Average Stan repeatedly. Assuming an average roll of 3.5 on each of his damage dice, it would take Average Joe about six punches to knockout Average Stan. Now let’s compare Average Joe and Average Stan to two characters considered “Legendary” using the current benchmarks. Meet Legendary Joe and Legendary Stan. They each have STR 30, PD 15, and STUN 60. Legendary Joe punches Legendary Stan repeatedly. Assuming an average roll of 3.5 on each of his damage dice, it would take Legendary Joe about 10 punches to knockout Legendary Stan. That’s a four punch difference!

 

The “Solution”: I thought it might be cool (or at least interesting) to design a set of benchmarks where a fight between Average Joe and Average Stan would be statistically equivalent to a fight between Legendary Joe and Legendary Stan. To do this, I made certain that every 1d6 of damage on the benchmark table was paired with 2 PD/ED, 2 REC, and 10 STUN.

Anyway, this is what I came up with:

 

 

Champs Bench by Eletarmion, on Flickr

 

 

"STATS," BTW, means DEX, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. I know, I know. Should be Primary Characteristics.

 

So, what do you guys think? Any feedback? Two things I’m mildly concerned about:

 

1) SPD: Speed lacks symmetry. I kind of want to make SPD 1 “Weak” and proceed with +1 per category, making SPD 8 “Legendary Superhuman.” That, however, would make SPD 2 “Average,” which breaks HERO System tradition. Still, it’s something to consider. Most of the games I play these days don’t give "supers" any more attacks per round than "normals", and I do want “normals” to play a more significant role in this campaign.

 

2) END & STUN: These values get outrageous when you move into the superhuman realm. Still, it sort of makes sense. To be honest, in Champions of old I often had an issue with master villains running out of STUN rather quickly. For some reason, a 150 - 200 STUN Grond doesn’t seem so unreasonable.

 

Well, I appreciate any thoughts you might have.

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[Enforcer84]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

I like it, looks about how my own write ups fall.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

I thought SPD 2 was "average" ?? Did that change in 6th Ed ?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Question, how does speed zero for weak works? Does that mean they don't have a phase?

 

One thing I have done, which I think lowers the speed and dex is to make sure that your average cop stays at speed two, and perhaps dex 11-12. If you lower your benchmark npcs, then (in theroy) supers and heros should also be lower. I've made my VIPER goons at those levels, and it works (well at least for me)

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

I thought SPD 2 was "average" ?? Did that change in 6th Ed ?

 

Oh, man! You're right! I'm just rusty! It's been too many years since I play Champions. I forgot that the old formula was DEX/10+1! Okay, perfect. So my benchmarks WILL be Weak = SPD 1, Average = SPD 2, Above Average = SPD 3, Exceptional = SPD 4, Peak Human = SPD 5, Superhuman = SPD 6, World Class Superhuman = SPD 7, and Legendary Superhuman = SPD 8. Cosmic level characters can go higher, if it makes sense for their concept.

 

And to think! I used to pride myself on my HERO-fu. How embrarassing!

 

Cheers,

 

Dragonfly

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Question, how does speed zero for weak works? Does that mean they don't have a phase?

 

One thing I have done, which I think lowers the speed and dex is to make sure that your average cop stays at speed two, and perhaps dex 11-12. If you lower your benchmark npcs, then (in theroy) supers and heros should also be lower. I've made my VIPER goons at those levels, and it works (well at least for me)

 

Hey, Ninja-Bear. Yeah, I was thinking no action, but I was really just fumbling because I was stuck on SPD 1 being average, which I was wrong about, as you can see me realize above.

 

As far as lowering stats for "normals" to bring heroes down to more reasonable levels - I totally agree. I was toying with that before I ran out of people to play Champions with back in 2000, and it seemed to work well for me too.

 

Thanks for chiming in!

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[Christopher]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

2) Symmetry: This is, perhaps, a bit obsessive of me, but it always bothered me a little that the existing benchmarks didn’t “play the same” at each category – especially when it came to damage and resilience.

 

Explanation: Take two “Average” characters built using the current benchmarks – Average Joe and Average Stan. They each have STR 10, PD 4, and STUN 20. Average Joe punches Average Stan repeatedly. Assuming an average roll of 3.5 on each of his damage dice, it would take Average Joe about six punches to knockout Average Stan. Now let’s compare Average Joe and Average Stan to two characters considered “Legendary” using the current benchmarks. Meet Legendary Joe and Legendary Stan. They each have STR 30, PD 15, and STUN 60. Legendary Joe punches Legendary Stan repeatedly. Assuming an average roll of 3.5 on each of his damage dice, it would take Legendary Joe about 10 punches to knockout Legendary Stan. That’s a four punch difference!

In a way, this is intentional. Nothing is more anoying for players than having your character K.O., because that means we can't interact with the game world.

 

I personally would not use these tables for PD and Damage at all. What really maters is the DC/Defense Ratio.

Take the average DC (in a 6E 400 point game the range is 6-14, and average 12 DC).

Defenses should be 1-2 times that. You can allow as high as 2.5 or even 3 for Bricks, but that might make them too tough.

Up to 75% of that defenses resistant, when you want a game in wich Killing Damage is not for use against foes (only entangles, barriers, robots, zombies, foci and the like).

 

The reason behind those values is how Damage works:

3 DC Normal damage deal 3 BODY, 10.5 STUN on average. So 12 DC deal around 12 BODY and 42 STUN.

3 DC Killing Damage (in 6E) deal 3.5 Body, 7 STUN on average. So 12 DC deal around 14 Body, 28 STUN.

 

2) END & STUN: These values get outrageous when you move into the superhuman realm. Still' date=' it sort of makes sense. To be honest, in Champions of old I often had an issue with master villains running out of STUN rather quickly. For some reason, a 150 - 200 STUN Grond doesn’t seem so unreasonable.[/quote']

Two words:

Damage Reduction

 

A mere 50% means you effectively doubeled STUN, Rec for STUN and CON for being Stunned.

75% means you quadrupeled them! It is the mechanic for foes that have to engage entire superteams.

In turn lower the PD/ED and DCV, so that everyone can contribute to the damage.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Hi Christopher,

 

Thanks for the thoughts. I hear what your saying, but here are a few things to consider:

 

1) The benchmark tables presented are really suggestions for scaling raw charactersitics - not final values as modified by powers, etc. I wasn't clear about this, so I totally understand your response. A character with a "Superhuman" physique might have a natural PD/ED of 20. He'd have a PD/ED 30, however, if he purchased +10 PD / +10 ED body armor. Once you factor in powers and other factors, your characters should be just as durable as they always have been. To be honest, I'm more concerned with characters at the higher superheroic levels being TOO durable, rather than too fragile. [This concern stems from lower SPD scores, higher REC scores, and more STUN at the World Class and Legendary superheroic levels.]

 

2) Even when we're talking about raw characteristics, without powers being factored in, these benchmarks don't make characters universally more vulnerable. I don't have his 6E stats, but back in the old days Grond would knock himself out in FOUR punches, rather than six or ten. To be honest, I don't think the benchmarks were intentionally designed with damage and defense values in mind. On those terms, they are sort of all over the place. What mine attempt to do is provide some consistency across levels. In some cases, characters become a bit more durable (Average Joe/Stan, Grond), in other cases, they become a tad more vulnerable (Legendary Joe/Stan). Again, powers, martial arts, and other factors will season these bases to taste.

 

3) I don't like using Damage Reduction as a means of enforcing narrative elements. In otherwords, I would only give a villain Damage Reduction if his power concept called for it. I wouldn't give a villain Damage Reduction simply because he is meant to fight the whole group. I'm not sure that you do this either, but your comments implied that you might. There's nothing wrong with doing that, of course. It's just not the way I roll, and it's not the way my players want me to roll. That being said, some characters DO merit it, and I'd factor that into the character design. I might, for instance, give Grond Damage Reduction. If I did that, I would probably account for that in the amount of STUN I gave him, maybe bringing it down significantly.

 

Again, these are just factors to consider. I'm not entirely sold on my own benchmarks yet. They'll require some playtesting before I decide if I'm going to employ them. Maybe I'll post some characters and some samples of combat when I get the chance.

 

Best,

 

Dragonfly

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Dragonfly-one thing to keep in mind when looking at other editions, there are small rule changes between editions which can affect why the build is such away. I know that this seems obvious but, well for me, it took awhile to figure out. For example pre-4th ed endurance is figured 1 end per 5 points of power not the later 1 per 10. So alot of characters had reduced endurance advantage. Probably which is why they changed it. Nice thing about Classic Enemies, in the beginning, it tells you what campaign level the villians were built at. (And of course, you are encourged to adjust for your campaign).

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Dragonfly-one thing to keep in mind when looking at other editions' date=' there are small rule changes between editions which can affect why the build is such away. I know that this seems obvious but, well for me, it took awhile to figure out. For example pre-4th ed endurance is figured 1 end per 5 points of power not the later 1 per 10. So alot of characters had reduced endurance advantage. Probably which is why they changed it. Nice thing about Classic Enemies, in the beginning, it tells you what campaign level the villians were built at. (And of course, you are encourged to adjust for your campaign).[/quote']

 

This is a good point, Ninja-Bear, and one that I'll have to ponder more carefully. I'm very familiar with the changes from 1st - 4th, as I was playing the game intensively for those 20 years or so. I'm familiar, but far more fuzzy, on changes from 5th to 6th.

 

Thanks for the continued feedback!

 

Cheers,

 

Dragonfly

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

This is a good point, Ninja-Bear, and one that I'll have to ponder more carefully. I'm very familiar with the changes from 1st - 4th, as I was playing the game intensively for those 20 years or so. I'm familiar, but far more fuzzy, on changes from 5th to 6th.

 

Thanks for the continued feedback!

 

Dragonfly

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with those changes either. My group is staying 4thed with 5th pricing as my friend puts it. I know that Surbrook points out in his converiso guideline that with some of the new optional rules like sweep and mutlple attacks, characters can do more in a phase than previous editions. So there is another reason why speeds don't have to be as high.

Cheers,

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

If you want to have "less of a gap between “normals” and “supers”" why allow SPD that high at all?

Above Average = 3

Exceptional = 4

Peak Human = 5 (or 5-6 if you like speed 6 martial artists and such)

Superhuman = 6-7 (or just 7)

World Class Superhuman = 8 (This would be the top for most characters and rare)

Legendary Superhuman = 9 (Leave this SPD only for Legendary Speedsters or such)

 

Wouldn't have to use these exact numbers, just an example.

[Tasha]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

This is a good point, Ninja-Bear, and one that I'll have to ponder more carefully. I'm very familiar with the changes from 1st - 4th, as I was playing the game intensively for those 20 years or so. I'm familiar, but far more fuzzy, on changes from 5th to 6th.

 

Thanks for the continued feedback!

 

Cheers,

 

Dragonfly

 

The changes to Characteristcs from 5th - 6th is that Str, Con, Int, Ego, Pre, Body are now 1 Character point per pip of stat. Dex is 2 Char Pts per 1 Pip of Stat. No stats are figured from any other stat. All are purchased from the base using Character Points. Also, OCV, DCV, OMCV(Offensive Mental Combat Value), and DMCV (Defensive Mental Combat Value) are now Characteristics and have a base value of 3. SPD costs 10 Char Pt per Point with a base of 2, PD and ED are still 1 char Pt per Pip with a base of 2 each. Recovery is now 1 char pt per pt, with a base of 4, End costs 1 Character point for 5 pips base 20, Stun is 1 char pt per 2 pips stun with a base of 20.

 

From what I have seen in my games, Dex averages have dropped. People don't buy their Dex much past 18. It doesn't give the benefits that it did in 5ed and before. Spd stays at the same averages. Str is only bought up if the character is actually supposed to be strong. Now, I do find that players forget to buy their End and Stun up above base. I also find that players buy their OCV and DCV to different values, usually with OCV being 1-2 points higher than DCV (this being a side effect of Skill Levels having increased in cost in 6e)

 

From my point of view charts like the one in the OP are of limited usefulness. Players tend to misinterpret what the chart is supposed to mean, which tends to lead to stat inflation.

 

Personally, I set the CV, Dex, Spd, PowerPoint per power and DC averages and maximums for a campaign. Once I know what those ranges are, I can figure out the rest. Whether I am playing the game or GMing the game. I guess having a chart like above can help if you want some basic guide for powerlevels, but again I can figure out how much Stun, Recovery and End a character should have. It's part of my essay that I link to in my signature.

[massey]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

The changes to Characteristcs from 5th - 6th is that Str, Con, Int, Ego, Pre, Body are now 1 Character point per pip of stat. Dex is 2 Char Pts per 1 Pip of Stat. No stats are figured from any other stat. All are purchased from the base using Character Points. Also, OCV, DCV, OMCV(Offensive Mental Combat Value), and DMCV (Defensive Mental Combat Value) are now Characteristics and have a base value of 3. SPD costs 10 Char Pt per Point with a base of 2, PD and ED are still 1 char Pt per Pip with a base of 2 each. Recovery is now 1 char pt per pt, with a base of 4, End costs 1 Character point for 5 pips base 20, Stun is 1 char pt per 2 pips stun with a base of 20.

 

From what I have seen in my games, Dex averages have dropped. People don't buy their Dex much past 18. It doesn't give the benefits that it did in 5ed and before. Spd stays at the same averages. Str is only bought up if the character is actually supposed to be strong. Now, I do find that players forget to buy their End and Stun up above base. I also find that players buy their OCV and DCV to different values, usually with OCV being 1-2 points higher than DCV (this being a side effect of Skill Levels having increased in cost in 6e)

 

Are those the changes they made? I haven't looked at 6th. Seems vaguely familiar. Did they move the Champions to San Francisco too?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Are those the changes they made? I haven't looked at 6th. Seems vaguely familiar. Did they move the Champions to San Francisco too?

 

Is there some inside joke I am missing or is that question just completely random weirdness?

[massey]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

You're probably too young.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

*sigh* That was entirely unhelpful...

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

If you want to have "less of a gap between “normals” and “supers”" why allow SPD that high at all?

Above Average = 3

Exceptional = 4

Peak Human = 5 (or 5-6 if you like speed 6 martial artists and such)

Superhuman = 6-7 (or just 7)

World Class Superhuman = 8 (This would be the top for most characters and rare)

Legendary Superhuman = 9 (Leave this SPD only for Legendary Speedsters or such)

 

Wouldn't have to use these exact numbers, just an example.

 

Howdy Bigbywolf!

 

You are absolutely right. I haven't updated the OP, but that's exactly what I decided to do for SPD.

 

1=weak

2=average

3=above average

4=exceptional

5=peak human

6=superhuman

7=world class superhuman

8=legendary superhuman

 

I'm honestly not certain why I went so high on my first draft.

 

Cheers,

 

Dragonfly

[massey]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

*sigh* That was entirely unhelpful...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44263[/ATTACH]

 

There you go.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Howdy Tasha,

 

That's interesting info on how 6th Edition has changed player behavior (bringing down DEXs, etc.). I own, but never played, 6th Edition, so that's something that is totally new territory for me.

 

I'm actually not too concerned about calibrating power levels. I've been playing the game since 1982, so I'm an old hand at knowning how values stack up against each other. The benchmarks, however, are useful to me because of the way I approach campaign and character design. For me, it's always concept first and mechanics second. I don't want my players (or myself) assigning 7 speed because it's good in combat. I want them assigning a 7 speed because they are making a speedster. My experience with Champions of old is that a lack of benchmarks and guidelines led to bloat and inconsistencies within campaigns. I'm not really interested in standardizing HERO System stats. That should be left up to individual GMs and their individual campaigns. My players, however, have always found benchmark tables useful for making sense of the numbers conceptually (not mechanically).

 

Cheers!

 

Dragonfly

[Tasha]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Are those the changes they made? I haven't looked at 6th. Seems vaguely familiar. Did they move the Champions to San Francisco too?

 

The Champions based in SF was the Champions New Millennium world of 4th ed/ Fuzion publication. As of 5th edition they are in Millennium City which is what used to be Detroit before Dr Destroyer blew it all to heck.

[Tasha]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Howdy Tasha,

 

That's interesting info on how 6th Edition has changed player behavior (bringing down DEXs, etc.). I own, but never played, 6th Edition, so that's something that is totally new territory for me.

 

I'm actually not too concerned about calibrating power levels. I've been playing the game since 1982, so I'm an old hand at knowning how values stack up against each other. The benchmarks, however, are useful to me because of the way I approach campaign and character design. For me, it's always concept first and mechanics second. I don't want my players (or myself) assigning 7 speed because it's good in combat. I want them assigning a 7 speed because they are making a speedster. My experience with Champions of old is that a lack of benchmarks and guidelines led to bloat and inconsistencies within campaigns. I'm not really interested in standardizing HERO System stats. That should be left up to individual GMs and their individual campaigns. My players, however, have always found benchmark tables useful for making sense of the numbers conceptually (not mechanically).

 

Cheers!

 

Dragonfly

 

I also approach Character gen from a concept first point of view. I also like to know the stuff that I listed so that I know that my 7 Speed Speedster is at and appropriate speed for the campaign. Also knowing those other things DC, Max pts per power, dex etc allow me to know how my character stacks up vs the average and at what point the stats are too high for GM comfort. The reason that I don't like those charts is that some players will look at the Superhuman power level and think that since they are playing a superhuman that they need to meet that level of stat in every thing. So you end up with stat bloat for no real reason. I use my mechanics to make sure that my character is useful in the campaign. Because I am playing in a game and it is up to me to create a character that adds to the fun of the game and is not a drag on the game. That's why I worked out the evaluation stuff.

 

Whatever works for you though. I just put what works for me and my experiences in running 6e. Hopefully that helps you.

 

I have also been playing the game since 83 or so. I have also been running it for that same amount of time. I have played with some of the worst rule twisters that have ever played the game. I have also been privileged to play with people who don't powergame like those older groups did.

[Dragonfly]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

I also approach Character gen from a concept first point of view. I also like to know the stuff that I listed so that I know that my 7 Speed Speedster is at and appropriate speed for the campaign. Also knowing those other things DC, Max pts per power, dex etc allow me to know how my character stacks up vs the average and at what point the stats are too high for GM comfort. The reason that I don't like those charts is that some players will look at the Superhuman power level and think that since they are playing a superhuman that they need to meet that level of stat in every thing. So you end up with stat bloat for no real reason. I use my mechanics to make sure that my character is useful in the campaign. Because I am playing in a game and it is up to me to create a character that adds to the fun of the game and is not a drag on the game. That's why I worked out the evaluation stuff.

 

Whatever works for you though. I just put what works for me and my experiences in running 6e. Hopefully that helps you.

 

I have also been playing the game since 83 or so. I have also been running it for that same amount of time. I have played with some of the worst rule twisters that have ever played the game. I have also been privileged to play with people who don't powergame like those older groups did.

 

Howdy Tasha,

 

Trust me, your feedback helps - particularly the stuff about how 6E changed play. That's very interesting to me.

 

I hear what you are saying with regards to benchmark tables like the ones I proposed above, and totally agree that someone could misunderstand what, for instance, is meant by "superheroic". At some point, I'm going to write a little flavor text with examples to correct such issues for a general audience. In my own group, however, I'm able to manage that stuff with a little bit of dialogue. I just clearly explain what the bemchmarks mean, and it works.

 

Your point about the culture of the gaming group making a difference is good too. I've been fortunate enough to play with essentially the same group for all my years of gaming, and they are exemplary role-players, with very little power-gaming tendencies. Perhaps that's why such tables have worked so well for me in the past.

 

BTW, I didn't mean to suggest that your gaming style was somehow lesser than mine when I made the comment about concept vs. mechanics. First, I don't see a mechanics approach as being lesser than what I do (just different), and second I apologize if I assumed the wrong thing about your approach. No harm intended, and thanks a ton for your feedback.

 

Cheers!

 

Dragonfly

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

Dragonfly another idea for benchmarks I think would be to give examples maybe instead of actual mechanics-at least for the players. I can't remeber the title of a old, as in pre-ditigal hero on-line article, where it describes things of instead of 10D6 EB, it 100 kilowatts of output. For example, if instead of desribing what the high end of strength say 60 str is, its labeled as Orge. Martial ability could be Seeker. Pure reflexes could be Green Dragon, etc. As for defining superheros, in fifth, they have a sample character Firebrand who doesn't have any superheroic stats, what makes him super, is his powers. You could have something like that too.

[Christopher]

Re: Alternate Benchmarks

 

I don't want my players (or myself) assigning 7 speed because it's good in combat. I want them assigning a 7 speed because they are making a speedster.

This could be a problem. SPD has nothing to do with Speedster. It's for characters with good reaction time.

I even think that in most cases, 1 point of SPD is better than 2 points on the CV's. So a high SPD could very well be a function of being a good combatant.

Afaik most book martial Artist even have increase SPD.

 

I also like to know the stuff that I listed so that I know that my 7 Speed Speedster is at and appropriate speed for the campaign. Also knowing those other things DC' date=' Max pts per power, dex etc allow me to know how my character stacks up vs the average and at what point the stats are too high for GM comfort[/quote']

Those things are also the real important stuff for me. When defining the combat capability in need:

Lowest, average and highest DC (not AP of Attack powers, use DC for this).

lowest and highest CV's

Lowest and highest defense (usually 1 times average DC and 2.5-3 times average DC).

 

I usually exclude Standart Maneuvers for this calculation, but include Martial Ars and CSL to a limited degree.