Case study: What if they succeed?

[Boll Weevil]

Hi, Heroes.

 

I have been reading over my Villains: Teams book at some old favorites as well as some new faces. Many of the characters and groups have the obvious goals of being evil, spreading chaos and getting rich. Still others are hellbent on nothing less than world domination.

 

That got me thinking. If those spandex-clad interlopers were out of the way and the human cattle would finally realize their place in the world what then? What does the endgame look like in the minds of these villains?

 

These are intelligent men and women. Surely they have a clear vision of what their conquests would ultimately look like at their completion. For folks like Dr Destroyer, Fiacho, Holocaust et al what would success look like if their plans succeed? Talk amongst yourselves.

[psyber624]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

I would think it would easily vary by the villain. Some want a world of slaves. Others just want to be the Defacto ruler (ie life may not change on the surface in their world, but you might have Gestapo like police tactics and an undercurrent of fear. Bad mouthing the boss could easily become treason.) Still others envision wiping out the population and starting over with their own hand picked cadre of fanatically loyal followers. And I am sure any number of them haven't really thought that far. Let's call it the Megamind Effect. If they ever won, they wouldn't really know where to begin. Wanting power doesn't necessarily mean knowing what to do with it once you have it (even for otherwise intelligent people). And taking over the world is a far different (some would even say easier) task than running it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

These are intelligent men and women. Surely they have a clear vision of what their conquests would ultimately look like at their completion. For folks like Dr Destroyer' date=' Fiacho, Holocaust et al what would success look like if their plans succeed? Talk amongst yourselves.[/quote']

 

To be honest, I really don't think most of them do have a clear vision of their post-conquest world. These are men and women pursuing power mainly because they want power, not because they have any particular plan for changing the world. Dr. Destroyer has never given details of what he would actually do as ruler of the Earth. He talks like he assumes the world will be a better place as an inevitable consequence of he, the greatest example of humanity who has ever lived , being in charge. But he really just wants to be the top dog because he believes it's his right and destiny. Fiacho claims to follow a program to force European unity and make it the leading world power, as befits its history and culture; but he and his followers are clearly socio/psychopaths using that rationalization to justify their greed, brutality, and lust for murder and destruction. Holocaust, for all his intellect and gifts, is at heart a vain, arrogant, undisciplined, self-obsessed jerk, like an antisocial teenager who never grew up (and given his power and privileges, he might never have had to grow up).

 

I was particularly struck by one of the new groups in CV vol. 2, the Futurists, whose two members to date tell themselves they want to guide the world from behind the scenes, to cure society's ills and improve the lives of everyone. But one of them is a hard, bitter man driven by a sense of betrayal by the masters whose cause he once served; while the other is a manipulative sadist with a vague sense of noblesse oblige. If these two ever did succeed in gaining control of even a fraction of the planet, I would expect any attempts to remake it in their image to quickly degenerate in the face of inevitable resistance, into a totalitarianism as harsh and repressive as any on the planet. (I do like the group's concept, though, and have culled more benevolent characters from the ranks of the CU for my own Futurists, with whom PC heroes may have a more ambivalent relationship.)

 

Kinematik, OTOH, has a pretty clear pro-mutant agenda, and explicitly envisions superhuman mutants, being inherently superior to normal humans, as a ruling minority -- like other examples of ethnic supremacists, but with a true quantifiable advantage over other "races." Kinematik started out in his home dimension as a hero, and is still not as ruthless as many master villains, so I suspect he would try to establish a benevolent dictatorship, perhaps with superhumans functioning like a ruling oligarchy, or maybe a feudal hierarchy. It's highly debatable whether he could maintain control over so many powerful, strong-willed beings, but even if he did, Kinematik was subject to harsh repression on his home world, and such people all too often slip into similar patterns once they gain power, in order to hold it.

 

Sunburst talks the talk about the need to protect the environment, end hunger and disease, and so on. He at least appears to walk the walk, too, promptly volunteering his services when there's a crisis. He's convinced himself that he believes these things, but his core motivation is still the desire for power. He'd likely slip into the role of tyrant quickly, if only out of what he believes is the need to push through his "reforms."

 

That's all I can think of to discuss at the moment. I may return when time permits.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

I think LL more or less nailed it. For the most part, it's the journey that motivates these men and women....not the destination. There have been several stories(the best of which was Emperor Doom) where the bad guy succeeds in conquering the world(or whatever) and then promptly gives it up out of boredom. Without that goal driving them, they're empty inside. This also tends to explain why they so often fail. Perhaps...subconsciously....they sow the seeds of their own defeat because they realize that without a goal to strive for...they really just don't have that much of a life. The movie Megamind is also a good example of this.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Thanks for the input. I was thinking about a CU version of Age of Apocalypse campaign. I am resigned to the fact that, to make it work, the heroes may have to intervene in a different dimension (perhaps through the actions of Istvatha V'han). I can't think of a scenario or group of scenarios that could quickly cause a regime to rise especially globally in the regular Champions Universe. Hmm, maybe the Empress herself could give me a clue.

 

In one case, I could see the world divvied up among several villains. Eurostar rules a united Europe under Fiacho. The area of the former USSR could be ruled by Red Dawn. Africa could be ruled by VIPER. These regimes would topple pretty easily with some well-placed actions by the heroes. Maybe I need to break down and buy Master Villains

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Of all the master villains in CV 1, I would say that Invictus has the most practical plan for gaining substantial power. He's not trying to overthrow governments in one fell swoop like the usual megalomaniac, but rather to gradually subvert the existing system from within. He's successfully pursuing a political career, positioning himself for an eventual run at the American Presidency. At the same time, his Century Corps is indoctrinating many bright, ambitious young men and women, inserting them into positions of future influence. He prefers to strike at opponents and threats subtly, using his political and social connections, keeping his own hands apparently clean.

 

Invictus views the Roman Empire as his inspiration. Based on that precedent and his "Campaign Use" notes in CV 1, one can envision Invictus transforming the office of President into that of a dictator, with the legislature and judiciary merely rubber-stamping his decrees, while pursuing an agenda of military and economic imperialism across the globe. He intends to lay the groundwork for these changes to the country over the next decade.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Thanks for the input. I was thinking about a CU version of Age of Apocalypse campaign. I am resigned to the fact that, to make it work, the heroes may have to intervene in a different dimension (perhaps through the actions of Istvatha V'han). I can't think of a scenario or group of scenarios that could quickly cause a regime to rise especially globally in the regular Champions Universe. Hmm, maybe the Empress herself could give me a clue.

 

In one case, I could see the world divvied up among several villains. Eurostar rules a united Europe under Fiacho. The area of the former USSR could be ruled by Red Dawn. Africa could be ruled by VIPER. These regimes would topple pretty easily with some well-placed actions by the heroes. Maybe I need to break down and buy Master Villains

 

Istvatha V'han has very clear objectives and plans for ruling Champions Earth, given that she's already conquered many alternate versions of it. If you want a quick turnover to a new world regime, V'han definitely has the will and the means to make that happen. Book Of The Empress goes into great detail regarding her administration of conquered territories. (As a side note to that, the recent flare-ups of the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East reminded me of how BOTE says V'han deals with subject ethnic or religious groups who refuse to stop fighting each other: kill everyone in the region, then open it to settlement from elsewhere in her empire.)

 

I would say that if any supervillain has a good chance of seizing power in Russia, it's Molnya from Champions Worldwide. A powerful mutant and one of the world's premier spymasters, Molnya is also one of the most sane and stable master villains in the CU roster. He's a subtle and patient long-term planner, preferring to set up others as figurehead leaders while he pulls the real strings behind the scenes. The conquest of Russia is definitely on his agenda, and he's considering schemes to bring that about -- some are probably already in the works by this time. I don't think we could expect massive systemic changes to Russia under his rule, aside from tightening his personal control. Molnya has studied and thought a great deal about politics and society, but has come to the conclusion that the only philosophy that truly makes sense is enlightened self-interest.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

For my own campaign I built a new supervillain team, which I named "Gaia's Wrath," out of several of the solo villains in Champions Villains Vol. 3 with very strong commonalities. Geothermal, Hornet, Sunspot, and Thorn are all scientists who were accidentally transformed into inhuman, elemental superbeings. They no longer think of themselves as human, and in fact actively hate the human race. Geothermal and Sunspot consider humans a blight on the planet's environment who must be culled, if not outright exterminated, for the planet to survive; and Thorn and Hornet would be easily persuaded to that view.

 

Assuming these villains succeeded in decimating humanity (no more than 10% of the existing population, according to Geothermal's character description), I would expect them to lord it over the remainder, likely herding them into confined reservations allowing the rest of the planet's ecology to regenerate.

[Balabanto]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Of all the master villains in CV 1, I would say that Invictus has the most practical plan for gaining substantial power. He's not trying to overthrow governments in one fell swoop like the usual megalomaniac, but rather to gradually subvert the existing system from within. He's successfully pursuing a political career, positioning himself for an eventual run at the American Presidency. At the same time, his Century Corps is indoctrinating many bright, ambitious young men and women, inserting them into positions of future influence. He prefers to strike at opponents and threats subtly, using his political and social connections, keeping his own hands apparently clean.

 

Invictus views the Roman Empire as his inspiration. Based on that precedent and his "Campaign Use" notes in CV 1, one can envision Invictus transforming the office of President into that of a dictator, with the legislature and judiciary merely rubber-stamping his decrees, while pursuing an agenda of military and economic imperialism across the globe. He intends to lay the groundwork for these changes to the country over the next decade.

 

The problem with Invictus is that if he succeeds, unless he succeeds too well, no one will ever know.

[Clonus]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

The Doctor Destroyer I remember, basically felt that the world had an excess of useless people (an excess of people in general in fact) and would probably set about systematically getting rid of people he considered unproductive and foolish.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

I have to say I'm with LL on this one. With the exception of Istvatha V'han, how many of these villains really understand what being a ruler entails? I doubt very many of them. Again, there's a world of difference between fantasizing about such positions of power and actually holding them for any respectable length of time.

[Grailknight]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_(comics)

 

 

This is the best example of this I've seen in the literature. I've also toyed around with something less dark. A nobler villain that allied with the heroes against a greater threat is the last man standing after the climatic battle. He places the heroes in medical hibernation until they are healed five years later and then releases them into the New World Order. He then gives them for a month of orientation and asks that they join the Imperial Knights to stabilize trouble spots and be watchdogs over regional governors(heroes and villains who have helped in the rebuilding).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Boll Weevil, what world conditions would you want to exist in the campaign you envision? That might help us identify the best candidates in the CU to bring them about.

[Cassandra]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

What were the ultimate goals of Hitler, Stalin, and Tojo?

 

Each had their own version of a perfect society, with them in charge of it, of course. They, and their minions, would rule over all those outside of the party or political/military apparatus. Anyone who dared opposed them would be imprisoned, and eliminated. The rest of humanity under their control would be slaves, living under the constant threat of death, forced to obey. Those who were enslaved might live a semblance of their old lives, but it would be an illusion at best. Informers and a secret police would be ever present, as would be fear.

 

It should be pointed out that there are always more then one Mastermind. War would be inevitable, and ever present. Even if one Mastermind gains control of the Earth, or even a major portion of it, there will be resistance. It is the job of the heroes to either prevent it, or liberate the world from the Mastermind's version of utopia.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

The difference between Hitler or Stalin, and most comic-book villains, is that the former two were already part of a governmental system and mechanism, one which they twisted to their own purposes. They acquired power, and put their own ideas about economic and social engineering into practice, through the tools of government. Comic-book villains usually try to overthrow the existing order completely, but rarely seem to think beyond the achievement of their goal.

 

OTOH there is something of a real-world analogue to such aspiring conquerors -- Timur Lenk, known in the West as Tamerlaine. A brilliant military tactician, Timur build a large empire in central Asia on the backs of states he destroyed, but spent much of his career putting down revolutions because he either wouldn't or couldn't govern his conquests effectively. His empire fragmented after his death.

[Cassandra]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

"If I were alive, the World would Tremble."

[Cassandra]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Every villain has got to start somewhere. Most comic book Masterminds would have to have an organization to help them carry out their plans. And some supervillains have been Heads of State, like Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Every villain has got to start somewhere. Most comic book Masterminds would have to have an organization to help them carry out their plans. And some supervillains have been Heads of State' date=' like Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom.[/quote']

 

Very good point. But consider your two examples. Lex Luthor became head of state the legitimate way, through a fully legal election, which placed broad constitutional powers in his hands. What he did with it doesn't negate that he came by it through approved channels, not unlike Hitler. Dr. Doom's kingdom, which he admittedly seized by force, is actually quite small, which seems to let him get away with micro-managing it. He is rarely shown with more than one or two living assistants or advisors. Everything important is either handled personally by Doom, or by one of his sophisticated robots programmed to be totally loyal. The bulk of the populace of Latveria follow his decrees to the letter, knowing that not to do so would be tantamount to a death sentence. Not the most efficient model for a populace of millions, let alone billions.

[Cassandra]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Who says villains have to win by underhanded means?

[Grailknight]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Winning by the approved above board methods means they are not acting as villains at the time. They may(and usually do) abuse their newfound station and fall but they got there legitimately so are at worst politicians/tycoons with questionable morals until then.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Boll Weevil' date=' what world conditions would you want to exist in the campaign you envision? That might help us identify the best candidates in the CU to bring them about.[/quote']

That's a good question. I guess the best case would be a scenario where a villain or team has taken control completely and that defeating them would restore the land back to the way it was. In the US, I just can't envision that without destroying the economy, commerce, industry etc and plunging the country into dystopia.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

That's a good question. I guess the best case would be a scenario where a villain or team has taken control completely and that defeating them would restore the land back to the way it was. In the US' date=' I just can't envision that without destroying the economy, commerce, industry etc and plunging the country into dystopia.[/quote']

 

If that's your purpose, I would recommend Menton as the man behind the plan. His enormous mental powers allow him to subvert almost anyone given the opportunity; and he usually prefers to work behind the scenes, not revealing himself as the mastermind. The one time he did visibly take power in his own name -- manipulating the populace of the nation of Guamanga into electing him their president -- he was attacked, defeated, and imprisoned, so I doubt he'll try that again.

 

Menton has no plan or agenda as a ruler, but for your purposes he wouldn't need one. As long as the people under his control do what he wants when he wants, he could leave the personnel and structures of government, finance, etc. intact. And defeating him would definitely be the key to "curing" the situation.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Also, if Menton alone isn't enough of a threat, or you'd like other parties for your players to go up against, Menton is on cordial terms with both PSI and Eurostar, and has cooperated with both groups in the past. He could probably call on their assistance in this scheme.

[Grailknight]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

Teleios would also be good to use. He avoids the spotlight and has the resources for undercover forces. Start a few Children of the Damned colonies across the world with accelerated maturity and you're set.

[Cassandra]

Re: Case study: What if they succeed?

 

The "How" a villain takes over the world is very important to the power they would actually have.

 

If it is a secret takeover, the threat to expose the population to a killer virus, or set off nuclear devices in large cities, then the villain is in charge, but his rule is behind the scenes. Most of the public won't really have any idea what has happened. That could be an advantages as it reduces the potential opposition forces against them, leaving it to a small group of heroes who know what is happen, and who try to overthrow the villain, possibly on their own.

 

The Dark Knight Rises had the scenario for the takeover of a large city, with millions of people as hostages. In a world with superheroes, not just one lone vigilante, the odds are that any such effort would meet very effective resistance.