Sammael Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Again, this is an NPC so some of the following may not apply. There are 2 main issues with VPP's, and cosmic ones crank the probl-o-meter up to 9. 1. If you aren't careful they can bog down a game. Cosmic especially means that this character can whip up any power at any time she wants it, to suit any needs she may have. The problem is that building a new power takes time, and if you have to stop the game for a while to build out that power that you REALLY need right now the pace of the game slows to a crawl. You can alleviate this problem somewhat by requiring a list of useable powers to be generated and approved before hand but that basically results in the VPP becoming a Multipower with ALOT of slots (potentially) and you can still loose game time while flipping through all the powers to find the one she wants to use right now. Realize that at 90 real points she could have a 30 Point Multi-Power pool with 20 slots for the same cost/effect if you do not allow building powers on the fly. 2. It can be very difficult to reign in players with VPP's (and if your NPC's have them some players may be upset if they are not allowed to have them). 30 points doesn't sound like much, but with it you can do sooo many things, take advantage of Limitations, Susceptibilities, weaknesses, etc. In the hands of a savy player and a lenient GM they can easily become "I win" buttons where almost nothing stops them. Make sure you know exactly what you will allow in a VPP before you unleash them on a group or you may be surprised what comes out. RAW they are almost not restricted at all Well, psyber624, you've done me a great service here. Some of this stuff would be very painful to learn within the context of running a game and being advised of these issues prior to reaching the gaming table is quite a boon. Thank you. I have some hard thinking to do. It is possible that I might need to alter my position on the VPP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. VPPs, like all powers, can be controlled by set limits on active points allowed in characters building. For 60 Active Points you can have a 40 point VPP which requires a Power Roll and at least a half phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Let's say you have a Hero and a Villain who have the same powers. In a fair fight the Hero would have at least the same chance to defeat the Villain. The Villain would not fight fair. Instead of attacking the Hero, he threatens a group of innocent people putting them in peril. The Hero can attack the villain while they are doing so, and gain an immediate advantage. The Hero can't, however, as innocent people are in peril, and must put themselves in a vulnerable position in order to save them. The Villain now takes advantage of the situation, and attacks the Hero. That's how the game is played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. re: VPP's At a minimum it's usually a good idea to put some sort of special effects limitation on what powers a VPP can be used for. This is fairly easy for many established comic book characters (Green Lantern-ring, Batman-belt, Superman-Alien) but others can present more of a challenge (Zatanna-magic, Martian Manhunter-Alien). The more open the special effect the more important a pre-built list of approved builds becomes as well (if only to speed up game play by preventing unwarranted power construction during game sessions). re: the term "Cosmic" when talking about VPP's The term "Cosmic" has always been a source of confusion in HERO VPP's. It is a special effect (Galactus, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, etc..) but it also refers to the combination of the VPP specific Advantages "No Skill Roll Required" & "Can Be Changed As Zero Phase Action". It's important to not confuse the 2 different uses. A VPP with the Cosmic Advantages still needs to have a special effect (sfx) defined. This of course can be Cosmic like a herald of Galactus but it is usually much more interesting to assign a far more limited sfx (ex: Magic, or Utility Belt, Malleable Body, Kryptonian Powers under Yellow Sun, etc....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Honestly while you are correct that it is the Golden Age Mentality I never understood or agreed with it (any more than handing the bad guy your gun when he has a hostage). If the person you are fighting is willing to kill innocents you have to take him out first. Otherwise he will just kill you while you are saving said innocents and those innocents will die anyway (and potentially MANY MANY more) Not particularly "in genre" (and oddly enough even some GrimDark settings have allowed Heroes to be this foolish and not die for it) but still odd. Edit: commenting on Cassandra's post about Villain tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. This sounds more like an issue of play style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. re: VPP's At a minimum it's usually a good idea to put some sort of special effects limitation on what powers a VPP can be used for. This is fairly easy for many established comic book characters (Green Lantern-ring, Batman-belt, Superman-Alien) but others can present more of a challenge (Zatanna-magic, Martian Manhunter-Alien). The more open the special effect the more important a pre-built list of approved builds becomes as well (if only to speed up game play by preventing unwarranted power construction during game sessions). re: the term "Cosmic" when talking about VPP's The term "Cosmic" has always been a source of confusion in HERO VPP's. It is a special effect (Galactus, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, etc..) but it also refers to the combination of the VPP specific Advantages "No Skill Roll Required" & "Can Be Changed As Zero Phase Action". It's important to not confuse the 2 different uses. A VPP with the Cosmic Advantages still needs to have a special effect (sfx) defined. This of course can be Cosmic like a herald of Galactus but it is usually much more interesting to assign a far more limited sfx (ex: Magic, or Utility Belt, Malleable Body, Kryptonian Powers under Yellow Sun, etc....). Yeah, I can see the wisdom in pre-defining powers and focusing on a theme where you can. I accept that, sure. But as for your take on "Cosmic", I submit the rule found on page 122 of Champions Complete, it is the last sentence in the final paragraph of the second column, under Variable Power Pool: "Typically, these powers are linked by common Special Effects, such as 'gadgets,' 'magic,' or 'mentalism.'" And, of course, "typically" would - by definition - mean "not always." Still, I can't argue the VPP would be more interesting (and flavorful) with a more defined special effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Let's say you have a Hero and a Villain who have the same powers. In a fair fight the Hero would have at least the same chance to defeat the Villain. The Villain would not fight fair. Instead of attacking the Hero, he threatens a group of innocent people putting them in peril. The Hero can attack the villain while they are doing so, and gain an immediate advantage. The Hero can't, however, as innocent people are in peril, and must put themselves in a vulnerable position in order to save them. The Villain now takes advantage of the situation, and attacks the Hero. That's how the game is played. JLA heroes all the way! It's a more difficult way, but more satisfying too. Or was that frustrating. I forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. VPPs, like all powers, can be controlled by set limits on active points allowed in characters building. For 60 Active Points you can have a 40 point VPP which requires a Power Roll and at least a half phase. Exactly. As a new GM, I'm loathe to treat any part of the rules as broken. I'm still comparing it to the Multipower, but I am curious about the VPP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Honestly while you are correct that it is the Golden Age Mentality I never understood or agreed with it (any more than handing the bad guy your gun when he has a hostage). If the person you are fighting is willing to kill innocents you have to take him out first. Otherwise he will just kill you while you are saving said innocents and those innocents will die anyway (and potentially MANY MANY more) Not particularly "in genre" (and oddly enough even some GrimDark settings have allowed Heroes to be this foolish and not die for it) but still odd. Edit: commenting on Cassandra's post about Villain tactics. I think this is a more modern sensibility. More pragmatic, less heroic. Shades of grey versus four-color, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. The difference in handling villains (both for the writer and the hero) is perhaps the main difference between DC and Marvel. DC have villains who are evil, but who generally go after the hero first in order to take over the world afterwards. The DC hero is a target, and accepts that role in order to protect the innocent. As such the DC hero only has to survive and then defeat the villain without having to kill them because he's only going to go after the hero before innocent people. Marvel villains have a goal, and the hero is just another obstacle in the way. The Marvel hero has to fight to protect the innocent because they are in real danger. The Marvel villain makes the hero think maybe it might be necessary to kill the villain to protect the innocent, but would only do such a thing as a last resort (unless it's the Punisher who does it right off the bat, or Wolverine who'll do it if no one is looking). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. The difference in handling villains (both for the writer and the hero) is perhaps the main difference between DC and Marvel. DC have villains who are evil, but who generally go after the hero first in order to take over the world afterwards. The DC hero is a target, and accepts that role in order to protect the innocent. As such the DC hero only has to survive and then defeat the villain without having to kill them because he's only going to go after the hero before innocent people. Marvel villains have a goal, and the hero is just another obstacle in the way. The Marvel hero has to fight to protect the innocent because they are in real danger. The Marvel villain makes the hero think maybe it might be necessary to kill the villain to protect the innocent, but would only do such a thing as a last resort (unless it's the Punisher who does it right off the bat, or Wolverine who'll do it if no one is looking). Ah. In that case, my villains will have a bit of Marvel in them. Not a lot, but a little. Enough to surprise, I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. FYI that was a personal sentiment, not really a game/comic consideration. I get why they do it in the comics it just always struck me as really really stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. FYI that was a personal sentiment' date=' not really a game/comic consideration. I get why they do it in the comics it just always struck me as really really stupid.[/quote'] Well, if villains weren't a little stupid (we could kindly say limited) they wouldn't get caught so darn often, would they? If, after having failed to destroy a superhero a couple score times, wouldn't a rational villain choose a softer target and move on? Why stick with the bad bet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. How are the villains getting away if they're caught so often? Wouldn't say that they're the stupid ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. priso/mental hospital gaurds that are ineffective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. How are the villains getting away if they're caught so often? Wouldn't say that they're the stupid ones. Aha! Butterfingers! Yeah, well, there is that. Aren't the villains lucky their opponents are also a little ... limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Wonder Woman's Magic Lasso Mind Control 10d6, Set Effect [Only to Tell the Truth] (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 16 Points Stretching 4", No END (+1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 15 Points Drain [sPD] 2d6, OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 10 Points Entangle 1 BODY 1 DEF, Takes No Damage (+1/2), Linked To Drain (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 5 Points Total Cost 46 Points If you use an EC (Amazon Magic) you can save a few points EC [Amazon Magic]-15 Points 1) Drain [sPD] 2d6 w/[Entangle 1 BODY 1 DEF, No Range (-1/2)], OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 7 Points 2) EB [Physical] 6d6, OAF: Tiara (-1) 7 Points 3) Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), Megascale/1/2 END Only (-1/4), IIF: Invisible Plane (-1/4) 10 Points 4) Force Field +10 rPD +10 rED, No END, OIF: Bracelets (-1/2) 10 Points 5) Mind Control 10d6, Set Effect [Only to Tell The Truth], (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 12 Points 6) Stretching 4", No END (+1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 7 Points Total Cost 53 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted December 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Wonder Woman's Magic Lasso Mind Control 10d6, Set Effect [Only to Tell the Truth] (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 16 Points Stretching 4", No END (+1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 15 Points Drain [sPD] 2d6, OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 10 Points Entangle 1 BODY 1 DEF, Takes No Damage (+1/2), Linked To Drain (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 5 Points Total Cost 46 Points If you use an EC (Amazon Magic) you can save a few points EC [Amazon Magic]-15 Points 1) Drain [sPD] 2d6 w/[Entangle 1 BODY 1 DEF, No Range (-1/2)], OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 7 Points 2) EB [Physical] 6d6, OAF: Tiara (-1) 7 Points 3) Flight 10", Variable Advantages (+1/2), Megascale/1/2 END Only (-1/4), IIF: Invisible Plane (-1/4) 10 Points 4) Force Field +10 rPD +10 rED, No END, OIF: Bracelets (-1/2) 10 Points 5) Mind Control 10d6, Set Effect [Only to Tell The Truth], (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 12 Points 6) Stretching 4", No END (+1/2), OAF: Magic Lasso (-1) 7 Points Total Cost 53 Points Sadly, Champions Complete does not have the Elemental Control power framework. Still, I like your creations and you know what? Champions Complete does detail a "Cord of Honesty" so I can directly compare your versions against each other and against their version. Very enlightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 30, 2012 Report Share Posted December 30, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. No EC. I'm sticking with 5th Edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. true there is no ec but there is unified power a flaw you can take that preforms almost the same function Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. A 1D6 Entangle? Really? I could break out of that. Me, massey, with my 8 Str. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Remember that the Entangle 1 BODY DEF 1 Takes No Damage is linked to Drain [sPD] 2d6. Also remember that Wonder Woman has Stretching 4" thought the Magic Lasso as well. Which means that Wonder Woman can drain an average of 7 SPD from anyone within 4 hexes. The strength of the Entangled is irrelevant because the target can't move at all and is just used to bring the target's DCV to 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted December 31, 2012 Report Share Posted December 31, 2012 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. Speed is 10 pts for 1. She can only Drain 7 pts on average and that's not enough to cost even someone without Power Defense for a 1 SPD. And as massey says, normals break out in 1 round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please. I stand corrected. Instead Woman Woman buys Martial Grab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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