Modelling Heroic Effort / Sacrifice

[Ostof]

I have a question for all you GMs out there, and a recent comment by Killer Shrike in another thread prompted me to get off my butt and air this out. Here's the comment, start with:

 

"Personally, I've never liked Pushing (as I saw it abused to a ridiculous degree by a group I played with briefly way back in the day). I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've allowed a Push over the 22 years and many many dozens of sessions of HERO I've GM'd."

 

I, myself, not only like the concept of a Hero reaching beyond himself to achieve what as once though unachievable, I don't think the system itself supports the concept very well. If one reads any superhero comics at all, you quickly run across heroes doing things outside of and beyond their "Standard Operating Parameters". Due to the nuts & bolts nature of the system, there are no surprises and few opportunities for characters to reach beyond themselves.

 

"Pushing" is one way to do that, but as KS discovered, it can be (and often is) used only to do more damage/effect, rather than be representative of this greater effort that the books themselves indicate should only occur with GM permission, i.e., "in the interest of the story." Heroes in the comics, and on TV, and in the movies, do this all the time, but the difference is this: they actually *suffer* for it. There are ACTUAL gameplay effects from their efforts, beyond the "I spend an extra 10 points of END - which I'll get back in 3 segments at my post-12 anyway".

 

I see "Pushing" NOT as the story-element the books describe, but as just another tool in the combat tool-kit.

 

Now, I realize that each player has the option to Build a "supernova/overdose/All In" concept into their character, but that's extra work for every person around, and let's be honest, not all players are number monkeys or like fiddling with character "code" - some really do just like to create a Concept, let the GM build it, and go. There's no reason the system couldn't have a way - like it does with "Push" - to model this

 

In my opinion, the system needs a truly character affecting way to reach beyond himself that cannot be "recovered from" with a few seconds of pause - something that lets the player know that "Yes, this WILL incapacitate your character for a bit."

 

I welcome any and all comments for discussion.

[Lucius]

 

I have some questions to start with.

 

What do you want characters to be able to do? I don't necessarily mean in mechanical terms, but we'll get to that.

 

Who can do it?

All and only player characters?

Or some other criterion?

 

When can they do it?

Only when the person running the game says so?

Is a roll, such as Ego Roll, required?

When it fits a Psychological Complication?

 

What happens to them when they do it?

BOD damage?

Penalties to rolls?

Long term reductions to STR or a Power or the like?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can a palindromedary do it?

 

 

 

[Mister E]

What if you took "spiritual" [PRE-based] Transform damage when performing a sacrifice move? This would be something like "sanity loss" done with EGO-based Transform damage... except that it would be leading to some form of essence-deprived post-sacrifice condition.

 

All of the various negative energy effects caused by undead [e.g., permanent END loss] may be used as example essence-deprived post-sacrifice conditions.

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

I've house-ruled that Pushing automatically costs Long-Term Endurance. Yes, you can do it, but if you use it too much you will run out of END that you can recover easily. Then you burn STUN - very heroic!

[dmjalund]

you could actually become more fragile afterward - Push STR? then you'll be at reduced STR until you get a prolonged rest

[Ostof]

I have some questions to start with.

 

What do you want characters to be able to do? I don't necessarily mean in mechanical terms, but we'll get to that.

 

Who can do it?

All and only player characters?

Or some other criterion?

 

When can they do it?

Only when the person running the game says so?

Is a roll, such as Ego Roll, required?

When it fits a Psychological Complication?

 

What happens to them when they do it?

BOD damage?

Penalties to rolls?

Long term reductions to STR or a Power or the like?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Can a palindromedary do it?

 

 

 

I was wondering if anyone already does something like this, where they either use or have used and discarded a process by which: Any PC, at any time (although my personal opinion would be that in the most exhausting of cases an EGO roll would be required - and yes, a Pysch Lim. can affect that roll either up or down).

 

I personally dislike the "GM fiat" for allowing Pushes or anything beyond a push - "heroic" isn't the same for everyone, and I'd prefer to see a mechanical structure that well and truly conveys the danger and the extent of what they are attempting. Possibly some wildly variable side effects, so that even the player cannot foretell the final cost....

[Ostof]

What if you took "spiritual" [PRE-based] Transform damage when performing a sacrifice move? This would be something like "sanity loss" done with EGO-based Transform damage... except that it would be leading to some form of essence-deprived post-sacrifice condition.

 

All of the various negative energy effects caused by undead [e.g., permanent END loss] may be used as example essence-deprived post-sacrifice conditions.

 

 

What defines a " sacrifice move"? It needs to be more than the simple Martial definition. But then, who decides?

 

The option you described...can you give me a comic/movie/literary example of what you think this would do?

[Ostof]

I've house-ruled that Pushing automatically costs Long-Term Endurance. Yes, you can do it, but if you use it too much you will run out of END that you can recover easily. Then you burn STUN - very heroic!

I've looked at LTE, and haven't ruled it out - but again, it doesn't offer enough flexibility or go far enough. Be honest - your hero is making what might well be his Last Stand, and he pulls together his 12d6 EB and decides he's going to "Give It His ALL, and Damn the Consequences!" So he PUSHES for .....wait for it.... +2d6.

 

Kinda anti-climatic, ain't it? As I stated earlier, "Push" is a tool in the tool box, and a legitimate one, but falls short of allowing characters to, in a moment of destiny, become something Greater than what they are.

[Ostof]

Some concepts I've been playing with, but haven't tinkered with any mechanics yet:

- Spending STUN, and then BOD for an Active Point boost - which would still cost END/STUN

- LTE for when End isn't recovered fast enough

- Raising the PUSH limit, but increasing the END/STUN cost

- Using XP to raise the Active Point limit, which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point...

 

Just some ideas. Hope this gives a clearer picture about what I am looking for.

 

Has anyone tried anything like this? Has anyone tried and discarded anything like this?

 

[Mister E]

"Sacrifice Move" was a poor choice of words for me as it is already something: a specific MA maneuver.

 

I am thinking of a special action that any PC may make. A house rule that applies generally to everyone.

 

[Greywind]

I've house-ruled that Pushing automatically costs Long-Term Endurance. Yes, you can do it, but if you use it too much you will run out of END that you can recover easily. Then you burn STUN - very heroic!

Iron Man: Rhodey, get down!

 

[activates an energy blade that cleaves through all the droids]

 

Col. James 'Rhodey' Rhodes: Wow. I think you should lead with that one next time.

 

Iron Man: Sorry, that's a one-off, can only be used once, done once.

[ned-kogar]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote']

 

You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing.

 

So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought.

 

Reminds me of when Banshee burnt his howl out taking down Moses Magnum's island HQ.

 

A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought.

 

Ned

[Nolgroth]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote']

 

You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing.

 

So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought.

 

Reminds me of when Banshee burnt his howl out taking down Moses Magnum's island HQ.

 

A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought.

 

Ned

I like the less harsh version myself. The GM would have to monitor Regeneration for characters unless he rules that Regeneration does not work for recovering powers used in Heroic sacrifice. I would also rule that any power that works on the same effect (Voice/Sound in your example) would be burnt out too. This includes Multipowers and Unified Powers. And personally I would throw some LTE on top of the whole thing, making the character effectively useless until the next adventure and at reduced effectiveness until the character heals back his power.

 

You know, you could also do a hybrid of Harsh and Less Harsh version. The power will eventually heal back, but you can spend XP to speed up the process. You could also spend XP to develop a different set of skills in order to cope with the loss of the power used. In fact, this could be an excuse for a "radiation accident" only in this case, the recovered points go into building up (a) new ability(ies) for the character.

 

The only problem is Strength. If you effectively "burn out" Strength, the character becomes effectively completely useless for a long time. The first month or so just to get back on his feet and then longer to get back up to fighting trim. It makes sense, but boy would I hate the be the player that decided to do this "cool" thing in game and not get to use that character for a while. Of course, if the focus of the character was intended to change anyway, this might be a very interesting role-playing challenge.

[ned-kogar]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote']

 

You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing.

 

So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought.

 

Reminds me of when Banshee burnt his howl out taking down Moses Magnum's island HQ.

 

A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought.

 

Ned

Also might need something to deal with multipowers so that the active (not real) cost is healed...

[Nolgroth]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote']

 

You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing.

 

So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought.

 

Reminds me of when Banshee burnt his howl out taking down Moses Magnum's island HQ.

 

A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought.

 

Ned

You must have posted your reply when I was editing.

[ned-kogar]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote']

 

You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing.

 

So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought.

 

Reminds me of when Banshee burnt his howl out taking down Moses Magnum's island HQ.

 

A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought.

 

Ned

Reckon so - that's a good thorough think you've had there. I quite like the mechanism.

[NuSoardGraphite]

GM needs to let the players know that Pushing is something to be done only in the most dire of circumstances. It should require a successful EGO roll to even try it. The penalty (or bonus) to the EGO roll will depend on the need based on the desperation of the situation. This is completely controlled by the GM. A character who is trying to Push just to show off would be at a -10 to their EGO roll, whereas someone who is Pushing to hold off a horde of enemies while his wounded comrades escape to safety might be at a +3.

 

Pushing costs Stun instead of END. And this is paid if the EGO roll is successful or not.

 

These rules in place, that should keep players from pushing whenever they feel like it, but if they absolutely need that extra oomph to do something truly heroic, it's there to help them.

 

[Ostof]

Using XP to raise the Active Point limit' date=' which would still require the appropriate END/STUN expenditure, and any Active Points raised this way would have a fixed END cost, like 5end/active point... [/quote'] You could even burn points straight off powers, which could then only be replaced via experience... eg. for pushing past the basic 10 points, you're able to trade, say, 5 pts of power for an additional 10 pts for the purposes of pushing. So, at that ratio, I could increase my 10d6 flame Blast to 12d6 via standard pushing, but could take it all the way to 22d6 - but would then lose that power until it was re-bought. A less harsh version would allow the power to heal at the same rate as body, rather than have to be re-bought. Ned

 

 

Sir, I really like this solution - especially the "less harsh" version where they heal back at standard Body/Recovery rate (regen does NOT apply), but can be supplemented with XP. This would not only allow me to model the Heroic Sacrifice I'm looking for, it Forces creative roleplaying in the aftermath.

 

Oh, well done sir - well done!

[Ostof]

I would be inclined to include an EGO roll as well, as the very nature of this beast is going to be Taxing and very possibly Painful, and will usually leave the hero at the mercy of whatever might be left. Some complications, like "Hates Pain" or "Never Turns His Back on the Enemy" would penalize that roll. Other complications might assist it. And, as always, the GM may add or subtract modifiers based on the situation. Just because the the player thinks it's a good idea doesn't meant that the character he built buys it....

 

And remember - FAILED rolls are the best Character builder there is. And the best story development tool.

[cypar7]

I agree with this thread. I was running a Fantasy HERO game and used something like this for mages who wanted to supercharge their powers. I can't recall the exact criteria. If memory serves they could boost with long term Magic Point loss, then boost even more with a drain to their power. I don't recall how recovery rate was determined.

 

I also recall that if the Magic Roll failed the same penalties applied if the Mage wanted the spell to work. Does this make sense? If the roll failed by one they could loose Long Term END. I can't recall the breakdown, but at some point the Mage could pay points for the spell would succeed. The opposite was true also. In order to increase power of a spell the Mage could loose Long Term END and at some point pay points. I don't recall how points returned.

 

Thanks for the conversation, and bringing memories to the surface.

[Ockham's Spoon]

ned-kogar's solution is nice and seems to fit the bill, but just for the sake of brainstorming, here are a couple other ideas.

 

First, house rule a Side Effect for Pushing, maybe something like a 6d6 Blast for a 50% power boost or a 12d6 Blast for a 100% power boost. Since you get no defenses against a Side Effect, that could really hurt, especially if the hero is already injured. Of course if the character regenerates or can be easily healed this could be abused. Alternatively the Side Effect could be a Drain against the power that is being used, indicating it had been overtaxed, and you could set the fade rate to whatever suited the campaign.

 

Another idea would be requiring Heroic Action Points to be spent for Pushing. This doesn't really hurt the hero, so it may not fit your conception, but it does limit the hero's resources by using up HAP so players won't want to do it willy-nilly. Alternatively you could award HAP for heroic actions to encourage players to sacrifice themselves. Just don't do both with the HAP or you get a revolving door.