Mentally Resistant Goons

[DasBroot]

One of the enemy groups in my game specifically hunts down psychics (and people with psychic potential) to recruit or 'recruit' as the situation warrants.  They wouldn't be very good at their job without some sort of mental conditioning, but I'm wondering which way is the most 'fair' to the psychic PC(s).

 

Option 1 - Skill Level +(X) to One Characteristic Roll - Breakout.  Is this even legal?  This way lets the PC affect the agents pretty easily, but it's hard to keep them locked down.  Doesn't stop them from being mentally blasted to unconsciousness, leaving an 'out' for the PC.

 

Option 2 = Mental Damage Reduction.  Affects mental blast damage, reduces EGO +X rolls making it harder to control them in the first place, but doesn't affect breakout.

 

Option 3 = Mental Resistance.  As option 2, but more 'you failed to affect them at all' results, which I try and avoid (most of my villains have thematic Damage Reduction instead of Resistance so everyone can contribute to a fight, whether they have a 4d6 blast or a 12d6 melee attack).

 

Option 4 - Ego bought with a limitation "Doesn't Affect Breakout Rolls".  Makes them hard to affect in the first place, doesn't provide any bonus to breakout, doesn't reduce blast damage. Could probably replicate with 'Doesn't reduce mental blast damage' limitation bought on mental defense instead.

 

They'll already have an increased DMCV - this is mostly for the 'wow, these guys are hard to brainbox' factor (what she calls her EGO+30 mental illusion roll, and which she can nail fairly routinely with her 13d6 mental illusion power attack against ego 10 - 15 enemies.)

 

The player knows this group is out there and built herself to protect the team from enemy psychic agents partially due to their existence so will be fine with whatever I go with. Just looking for opinions on which is the best balance between 'memorable' and 'frustrating'.

[ghost-angel]

Do you want to protect from both mental attacks and mental powers that need a breakout?

 

if so, Mental Defense is the best route. Doesn't have to be a lot. Just enough to take the edge off.

 

+X EGO Roll is legal and a good way to give mooks the ability to shake off mental abilities without reducing them actually working.

[IndianaJoe3]

A couple of Penalty Skill Levels with Breakout rolls would help the mooks without being too overpowering, I think.

[DasBroot]

Interesting angle.  How would penalty skill levels be applied to counter a breakout roll penalty?  I'm using Champions Complete, and it reads that it's for modifying penalties applied to OCV or DCV.  Nothing on the table mentions characteristic roll penalties.

 

I like the idea - keeping the breakout rolls near 11- regardless of success levels - but our group's One Guy will be reading the PSL entry carefully after it goes into play to see if it's worth imitating - part of the reason I wanted to check on the legality of the +Ego roll to Breakout skill level.  

 

Simple MD is an option, but I'd rather see an effect shaken off over fail.  Psychic powers aren't cheap and it's already pretty easy to mess up 75 active points of mind control with 10 active points of MD as it is (not seeing many situations were resistant mental defense would be needed - a tricked out AVAD killing attack with the Does Body advantage to turn it back from stun to body? Not even sure how that would work mechanically speaking).

[IndianaJoe3]

Using PSLs isn't strictly RAW (which only mention CV penalties), but it's not forbidden either and it's very much in keeping with the spirit of the rule. It's also a cleaner construct than Limited Skill Levels, and costs about the same.

[NuSoardGraphite]

 

One of the enemy groups in my game specifically hunts down psychics (and people with psychic potential) to recruit or 'recruit' as the situation warrants.  They wouldn't be very good at their job without some sort of mental conditioning, but I'm wondering which way is the most 'fair' to the psychic PC(s).

 

Option 1 - Skill Level +(X) to One Characteristic Roll - Breakout.  Is this even legal?  This way lets the PC affect the agents pretty easily, but it's hard to keep them locked down.  Doesn't stop them from being mentally blasted to unconsciousness, leaving an 'out' for the PC.

 

 

Yes, that's quite legal and makes perfect sense for Agents who are trained/conditioned to hunt psychics.

 

 

 

Option 2 = Mental Damage Reduction.  Affects mental blast damage, reduces EGO +X rolls making it harder to control them in the first place, but doesn't affect breakout.

 

 

This is my favored approach to someone highly resistant to mental attacks.  It makes it extraordinarily difficult to affect the character with overwhelming (EGO+30) effects.  For the Agents I would suggest 25% Damage Reduction, which makes them harder to effect, but not impossible.  50% damage reduction makes them very, very difficult to effect and 75% mental damage reduction is essentially immunity to most mental powers.

 

 

Option 3 = Mental Resistance.  As option 2, but more 'you failed to affect them at all' results, which I try and avoid (most of my villains have thematic Damage Reduction instead of Resistance so everyone can contribute to a fight, whether they have a 4d6 blast or a 12d6 melee attack).

 

 

Some mental resistance is necessary.  How much depends on how you want the battles to play out.  I would lean toward a modest amount of Mental Damage Resistance with the addition of Damage Reduction rather than to go with high damage resistance/defense.

 

 

Option 4 - Ego bought with a limitation "Doesn't Affect Breakout Rolls".  Makes them hard to affect in the first place, doesn't provide any bonus to breakout, doesn't reduce blast damage. Could probably replicate with 'Doesn't reduce mental blast damage' limitation bought on mental defense instead.

 

 

That's a good option.  +5 or +10 to Ego, only to increase resistance to mental effects (-1?) would be a great defense.  Perhaps it requires concentration and is not persistent.  If the character is taken unawares, they don't get the bonus to defend against mental assualts.

 

 

They'll already have an increased DMCV - this is mostly for the 'wow, these guys are hard to brainbox' factor (what she calls her EGO+30 mental illusion roll, and which she can nail fairly routinely with her 13d6 mental illusion power attack against ego 10 - 15 enemies.)

 

 

Of course.  enhanced DMCV is a must for characters of this type.  Just make sure their DMCV isn't so high that they can't be affected at all.

 

 

The player knows this group is out there and built herself to protect the team from enemy psychic agents partially due to their existence so will be fine with whatever I go with. Just looking for opinions on which is the best balance between 'memorable' and 'frustrating'.

 

 

I would use a combination thereof.  In general the Agents would have extra DMCV (maybe +2), some Mental damage resistence/defense (enough to protect against low-end effects, but more powerful effects will still get through) and 25% Mental Damage Reduction.  Your average psychic character would have trouble with these guys, but they wouldn't be untenable.

 

After which I would have specialty agents that had higher levels and different variations of these defenses, so the psychic in the group has to figure out how to approach each one.  Fighting against an enemy with a high DMCV means the groups psychic has to develop some mental skill levels to compensate.  Fighting against an agent with 50% Damage Reduction vs 25% means the psychic has to make more frequent use of Pushing or Haymaker, threatening to exhaust her in battle.  Fighting against an Agent with very high Mental Defense means developing an Armor Piercing mental assault.  Mix it up so the various encounters don't always boil down to the same tactic.

 

[DasBroot]

I really like the idea of specialists - one of each in a fight, keep her guessing.  

 

Though realistically I suspect it won't really come down to guessing as much as ensuring the brick stays uncontrolled long enough to place heavy things on the agents (last session said brick decided to deal with a very heavily armored cyborg - 32 pd vs her 12d6 60 strength punches - by placing a rooftop water tower (about 30 tons) on top of said cyborg (str 35), allowing the psychic to mind scan lock on and mental blast without having to fear plasma cannon reprisal.)

 

And that's fine by me.

[Vondy]

I would limit the actual mental resistance tech / training to top-level henchmen and spec-ops types.

 

Instead, I would rely on classic intelligence methods and compartmentalization with the "goons."

 

This allows the mentalist to glean small tidbits and feel useful without giving up the whole plot.

 

Goons should be goons -- if mooks neuter the mentalist at every turn it will get annoying quick.

 

This also allows gives you a reasonable explanation of why only the clues you wanted were available.

 

They heard or saw something they really shouldn't have, etc.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I really like the idea of specialists - one of each in a fight, keep her guessing.  

 

Though realistically I suspect it won't really come down to guessing as much as ensuring the brick stays uncontrolled long enough to place heavy things on the agents (last session said brick decided to deal with a very heavily armored cyborg - 32 pd vs her 12d6 60 strength punches - by placing a rooftop water tower (about 30 tons) on top of said cyborg (str 35), allowing the psychic to mind scan lock on and mental blast without having to fear plasma cannon reprisal.)

 

And that's fine by me.

And that is an interesting use of their powers in combination to take down a very tough foe.  That's exactly what you want going down in your scenarios and are the foundation of very memorable game sessions.  Happy gaming.

[Beast]

what about having your mooks control by your mid level PSIs via a control helmet attuned to the mid level PSI(the mooks are well paid and agree and the helmet adds a few dice and also send telemetry)

you could even have say a 4  man fire team all being run by 1 mid level PSI

 

this way you can keep Psi's down to managable levels

[DasBroot]

The 'psychic overwatch' approach is what triggered this part of the story to begin with - there was a bank robbery and the team's psychic picked up through her mental sense that the robbers were the target of mental powers.  She ended up in a long distance mind-scan duel with the controller (and won), but since the controller was across town in a base - it was like kicking a bee hive.  This was the response team to that.

 

It went largely as I expected - I mixed it up went with one Agent of each option (ego roll bonus, MD, and Mental Damage Reduction), along with a smattering of guards (true mooks armed with pistols).  Assuming that the agents were mentally shielded she focused on the gun toting mooks.  One of the agents was grappled on the start of combat segment 12 and was promptly thrown 40 meters from the rooftop the heroes had chosen to make a stand on to another rooftop across the street (and lacking any super movement didn't bother coming back) on segment 3 of the first round.  The second joined him on segment 9 after being grappled on segment 6.  The third surrendered after being grappled on segment 12.

 

The psychic made the hired thugs all forget they were armed on the opening segment 12 with her 8d6 selective AoE mental illusion.  They were a non-factor after that (downgrading a 2d6 RKA to a 2d6 hth attack does that), but the sonic blaster picked them off from above anyways, not wanting to ruin the brick's game of Agent Skeeball (she was aiming for the rooftop access door of the building across the street, but at that range (-6 OCV) she was lucky to hit the rooftop at all - which she worked to rectify after the session by spending the night's experience points on Penalty Skills Levels with Range Modifiers on Throw.)

[massey]

I agree with Vondy.  Goons should stay goons.  That's when the mentalist character should really feel powerful.  Mook teams sent to subdue bricks don't usually go in with 30 Def each.  They use a few tricks and they usually fail anyway.

 

A moderately good ECV  would be appropriate.  Or they could be mind controlled to forget certain things.  They aren't under active mind control that you can see with mental awareness during the mission, but if you try to read their mind later you're going to have to beat the opposing mentalist's roll before you get any useful info.  If said mentalist is paranoid, he or she might have also hit them with a few mental illusions to prevent them from seeing certain things.  That keeps the identity of your villain secret because any time the goons saw her, their brain translated it as a floating ball of blue light.  Even if you discover they were under the effect of mental illusions, that's still what those guys saw.

 

They can still be useful for taking down mentalists, just not PC-grade mentalists.  

[Greywind]

If you really want them to have some defense, give them a device (helmet) that bestows some mental defense, if they feel that the target warrants it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Nothing wrong with having a squad of agents trained to deal with mentalists.  In fact, it makes perfect sense in a world where mentalists are a reality.

 

I'm assuming this squad is kind of an elite unit.  So their being trained better than your typical agent makes sense.

[Greywind]

I feel that "goons" rank lower, a lot lower, than "agents".

[NuSoardGraphite]

I feel that "goons" rank lower, a lot lower, than "agents".

I get the impression with a lot of people, the terms are synonymous.

[Vondy]

"Makes perfects sense" does not necessarily equate to "fun" or "enjoyable." In fact, those very words frequently result in "killjoy."

[Christopher]

One of the enemy groups in my game specifically hunts down psychics (and people with psychic potential) to recruit or 'recruit' as the situation warrants.  They wouldn't be very good at their job without some sort of mental conditioning, but I'm wondering which way is the most 'fair' to the psychic PC(s).

[...]

The player knows this group is out there and built herself to protect the team from enemy psychic agents partially due to their existence so will be fine with whatever I go with. Just looking for opinions on which is the best balance between 'memorable' and 'frustrating'.

Some general points about countering Mentalists:

Complications:

Those are the stepping stones and roadblocks for the Mentalist. Your organisation could only hire people with fitting "Mental Profiles" as agents (they all have proper complciations). Or they might use Mental Surgery (Mental Transforms) to give thier agents proper Complications - call it "Brain Washing" or make it a power of the Leader.

 

Limiting knowledge of lower levels in the Organsiation.

This is actually a more common technique in just about any Organsaition (from Criminal to Military). If somebody lacks an information he cannot devilge it during Interrogation or Mental Probing. If a computer does not have an information neither Technopaths nor Computer Science can get it from them.

Many Resistance Movements and Crime Organisations use a System of "Cells" with each cell only knowing little to nothing about the others.

On another note this can make the structures more stable - you cannot off a underboss if he is the only guy knowing how to contact the next higher tier in teh organsiation.

 

Affecting the Mental and Sight groups:

Mentalists have to target foes. They do so with Normal Sight and Midn Scan most often.

Flashes. Darkness. Opaque barriers. Entangle with "Stops a given Sense".

 

Option 1 - Skill Level +(X) to One Characteristic Roll - Breakout.  Is this even legal?  This way lets the PC affect the agents pretty easily, but it's hard to keep them locked down.  Doesn't stop them from being mentally blasted to unconsciousness, leaving an 'out' for the PC.

"Skill Level with Ego Breakout Roll" is legal and would count as a 2 point SL. (I think I asked on the Rules Forum for that).

For 3 points you could get SL with "EGO-breakout, CON-Breakout and Resisting Influence Skills".

(6E1 447 lists the Resistance Talent as being built as "+1 with EGO Roll (2 Active Points); Only To Resist Interrogation/Questioning (-1)")

 

A "bonus point" is that this does not hinder Mental Blast. It only affects Powers with breakout rolls. So even if they are resistant to Illusions and Mental Control there is still a way the Mentalist can aid his team in combat.

Option 2 = Mental Damage Reduction.  Affects mental blast damage, reduces EGO +X rolls making it harder to control them in the first place, but doesn't affect breakout.

I would consider this way too expensive. While you can admitedly save something since you do not need to make it resistant (as opposed to ED/PD), it's still quite expensive. You can use it for Villains, not so much for low level Agents.

Since it is also fixed cost it can easily get "too expensive" or "too cheap" for any given effect/game.

 

Option 3 = Mental Resistance.  As option 2, but more 'you failed to affect them at all' results, which I try and avoid (most of my villains have thematic Damage Reduction instead of Resistance so everyone can contribute to a fight, whether they have a 4d6 blast or a 12d6 melee attack).

It's common for Single Sheet Villains that have to battle a Team to have "mediocre Defenses and DCV, high Damage Reduction". Other ideas are to make them Multiple Sheet Villains (a "Cannot recombine" variant of Duplicate) or always let them have some allies (Summon or Follower on the Sheet) along.

 

Option 4 - Ego bought with a limitation "Doesn't Affect Breakout Rolls".  Makes them hard to affect in the first place, doesn't provide any bonus to breakout, doesn't reduce blast damage. Could probably replicate with 'Doesn't reduce mental blast damage' limitation bought on mental defense instead.

In a way Skill Levels are "Characteristics, only to affect certain Roll". Also the EGO roll get's a penality if you roll sufficiently "over target Effect", so it could shield from Penalties from very good rolls.

Also note that if somebody makes his first breakout roll they "were never affected to begin with". It counts as if the Mentalist had rolled to low for the effect.

 

They'll already have an increased DMCV - this is mostly for the 'wow, these guys are hard to brainbox' factor (what she calls her EGO+30 mental illusion roll, and which she can nail fairly routinely with her 13d6 mental illusion power attack against ego 10 - 15 enemies.)

It's a valid approach. There are only so many defenses in the HERO System:

Defenses (PD, ED, Mental Defense), Damage Reduction (percentile), Damage Negation (see below). DCV/DMCV. Mental Powers also have the Breakout Roll.

 

Mental Defense is often used in addition to fitting Complications. It affects Every Mental Power (and several ones Advantaged to work as Mental Powers). Even those not normally considering EGO.

Defenses in general also have good effect against AoE Attacks (as those have less dice/AP due to the AoE Advantage). Wich would make them less of a "one or two AoE's and they are finished" foes for the Mentalist.

 

Damage Negation is valid only for 6E (but I think you use it here). For normal damage powers it can be hassle - they are more often advantaged (in a way that affects DC calculation). And Damage Negation is bad at preventing BODY damage even from Normal Damage Attacks.

Both problems are not nearly as common for Mental Powers.

And it can be overcome with "Reduced Negation", a 2 point/DC of Negation Adder for attack powers.