Transform or Dispel?

[Fenria]

I'm trying to build a Telekinetic power that takes apart inanimate objects. (The screws in the table unscrew and the table falls apart, the gun is disassembled, the armor's bands and latches come undone)

 

Would I use a Dispel with Cumulative, or a Major Transform (Object to Broken Object)?

[TheRealDeal]

If you are limited to one or the other, Dispel is better as it accounts for the Active Points of the target you are dismantling and is more balanced that way. Transform requires the target to have a BODY amount and not all things have such readily given for them. Also a powerful item (like focus for a powerful gun) may have but 1 BODY making your Transform seem to be too powerful against it. I think Dispel is the power that respects game balance in this case better than Transform.

[Lucius]

I'd say use Blast or Killing Attack with a Limitation that the item can be reassembled, possibly with Attack vs Alternate Defense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's not a Limitation, just a special effect

[Aversill]

I don't think Dispel will work.  First off, you can't dispel characteristics.  Second, dispel just forces the other guy (or thing) to turn the power back on.  If you were to dispel the table, say, and we knew what the table's "powers" were, the dispel would turn them off and then, assuming they are persistent, they'd just turn back on again.  It would be like, for a fraction of a second, the table didn't have the power to hold things up.  Plus, the dispel would need variable effects and it would have to work on a number of characteristics.  If you wanted to keep it going, you'd have to make it constant, then persistent, and at 0 End.  It's a headache to go that route and because of the characteristics thing, I don't know if it would work.

 

This seems like a classic transform to me.  I would probably make it work against PD/ED rather than Power Defense, and I might argue that it has to be a severe transform (whichever's the highest) if you're hoping to take things apart that officially have powers.  As for that being too powerful... it's kind of powerful, but then, if this is the character's thing then that's the character's thing.  Superman's ability to have bullets bounce off his chest is kind of powerful too. Remember, foci have body = 2 x the number of powers bought through the foci.  Dismantling Iron Man's suit is not easy using this method.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Back in the day, use of Dispel on a focus would break that focus, forcing the character to repair it or get a new one.  If you  use that particular rule in your games, then yes, Dispel would work fabulously, though as Aversil pointed out, it doesn't really work on Characteristics so taking apart Automatons and vehicles becomes problematic.

 

Transform also works just as well.  Probably better, since it is automatically cumulative and only has to go against the objects Body, not it's Active Points.  Balance issues might crop up with that method, but I think it's true to the spirit of the concept.

[Chris Goodwin]

In the description of Dispel in 6e1, there are several mentions of using Dispel to represent breaking an object, though admittedly it's more GM judgment than hard and fast rules, based on special effect.  But it's there.  There's also nothing at all in the book that says Persistent Powers automatically turn back on if they are Dispelled; they still have to be re-activated.  It explicitly states that Dispel doesn't work on Characteristics, but elsewhere in the description it implies that it does; I'd rule that it works on Characteristics as Powers, especially those bought through a Focus or are part of an inanimate object.  

[Aversill]

Persistent powers auto-restart.  That's on p 128, 6e v.1.   The thing about destroying gadgets with a dispel is in the power's first paragraph fluff.  It is true; you can destroy gadgets with dispel, but you need to buy the power to 0 end, and you need to buy it as constant and then persistent.  As the target will never escape the dispel, whatever it was meant to do will never be activated. I would consider that to be overpowered for my games but your mileage may vary. 

 

Still, dispel+0 end+constant+persistent+variable effect+expanded effect.  How much do you want to pay for this dispel?

 

Even then, it doesn't seem like it really "destroys" the object.  More like it permanently jams it.  For full dismantling, I think you're either looking at Transform or Killing Attack.

[IndianaJoe3]

I would use Dispel. It's designed to be a, "make other powers stop working" ability.

[Chris Goodwin]

Persistent powers auto-restart.  That's on p 128, 6e v.1.

Specifically, that page refers to Powers with a Limitation on them that prevents them working sometimes. For instance, if a Resistant Protection Power had Limitation: Not On Saturdays, it would cease working at 12:00am on Saturday, and reactivate at 12:00am on Sunday.

 

On 6e1 p. 195 it says what to do when Dispelling a Focus (it also specifies that an Unbreakable Focus is considered to be Difficult to Dispel, having x16 Active Points for purposes of resisting breaking Dispels). A Power such as the Spell of Rusty Doom (6e1 p. 194, sidebar) would, if the roll is enough to Dispel the Powers in a metallic Focus, or other metallic object, cause the Focus to be damaged.

 

The thing about destroying gadgets with a dispel is in the power's first paragraph fluff.  It is true; you can destroy gadgets with dispel, but you need to buy the power to 0 end, and you need to buy it as constant and then persistent.  As the target will never escape the dispel, whatever it was meant to do will never be activated. I would consider that to be overpowered for my games but your mileage may vary.

I don't know where you're getting any of this. The Spell of Rusty Doom has none of these Modifiers. Nor does Matter Warping (Champions Powers, pages 214-215). Both of these Powers note by Special Effect that they damage or destroy the Powers in question.

 

Still, dispel+0 end+constant+persistent+variable effect+expanded effect.  How much do you want to pay for this dispel?

 

Even then, it doesn't seem like it really "destroys" the object.  More like it permanently jams it.  For full dismantling, I think you're either looking at Transform or Killing Attack.

It's based on Special Effects and, to an extent, the specific mechanics used relating to the Focus.

[Aversill]

I can special effect anything; what are the rules?  

 

Line and verse:

"A character doesn’t have to turn on a Persistent Power; it’s assumed to be on at all times, even when the character is unconscious. A character can turn off a Persistent Power if he chooses; the Power remains off until he turns it back on [it doesn't say, but I assume this is a 0 phase action]. Inherently Persistent Powers never cost END.

 

If a Persistent Power has a Limitation that prevents it from working under certain conditions, when that condition ends or goes away the Power automatically “restarts,” unless (a) the Power has its own specific rules governing such situations (in which case apply those rules), or ( events during the period of non-functionality would prohibit automatic restart."

 

Persistant Powers auto-restart.  You can't buy a killing attack for 1d6 per 3 points.

 

Also:

 

Line and Verse:

 

"The victim of a Dispel may “restart” the Dispelled power, but he has to start from scratch— he must perform any preparations again." (193)

 

That's what the power does.  The person whose power is dispelled need only start it up.

 

Rusty Doom?  RAW, it doesn't work.  It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a bad build come from a game designer,  Maybe its a holdover from an earlier edition, I don't know.  But according to the rules, someone dispels your power, you need to start it up again, unless the power is persistent, in which case, it starts up as soon as the dispel ends.  In later parts of the description, it clearly talks about dispelling CHA (especially defenses), which earlier it says you cannot do.  Moreover, if you could, it would break the game.  Who would buy a blast when you could get a 1d6 AVLD (Power Defense) for 6 points, which is what a Stun Dispel would become?  Who would buy a Killing Attack when for 6 points you could get a 1d6 killing attack AVLD, Does Body (Body Dispel).  You can dispel resistant defenses, but if you do, you need to make the dispel constant, or persistent.

 

Note: dispelling non-persistant powers on things like robots WILL technically destroy those powers if (and only if) the robot doesn't have a program to restart the powers.  The same is probably true for any automated function (traps in FH, for instance).

 

I'm surprised there isn't a "keep paying End to keep the power dispelled" but I don't see that option.  If there were, Rusty Doom would work.

 

I don't have the Champions supplements you're talking about so I couldn't say.

[Chris Goodwin]

 

If a Persistent Power has a Limitation that prevents it from working under certain conditions, when that condition ends or goes away the Power automatically “restarts,” unless (a) the Power has its own specific rules governing such situations (in which case apply those rules), or ( events during the period of non-functionality would prohibit automatic restart."

 

 

Line and verse.  

[Tasha]

An AVLD Drain vs Stun has fade. A Dispel vs a Foci that adds stun doesn't fade it either dispels the effect or it doesn't. When it dispels the Stun they don't come back until the foci is fixed. The Drain will return the Stun at the rate of 5PP per turn.

[Aversill]

Tasha, under your description, is dispel more powerful than drain?  It sounds like you're saying that a drain will fade, but a dispel requires serious fixing of a foci, even though dispel costs half as much as the drain.

 

Chris, you seem to be concentrating on the limitation thing, which is fine. Can you, however, show me where the opposite is said.  The implication is that persistent powers turn themselves back on unless you yourself turn them off.  You're suggesting that they also don't turn back on if dispelled.  Where do you see that?  I cannot find that in the power's description.

 

I see the focus thing.  That's... odd.  It seems like dispel is two different powers.  One shuts powers off, the other actually breaks the thing. 

[Aversill]

Also, it seems like we're just arguing the part where a persistent power either auto restarts or takes a 0 phase to restart.  Assuming I'm wrong, and it's a 0 phase action, how does that equal a broken object since you can just...spend the 0 phase and restart the power through the focus. 

 

I'm confused.

[Chris Goodwin]

Chris, you seem to be concentrating on the limitation thing, which is fine. Can you, however, show me where the opposite is said.  The implication is that persistent powers turn themselves back on unless you yourself turn them off.  You're suggesting that they also don't turn back on if dispelled.  Where do you see that?  I cannot find that in the power's description.

The Limitation thing is called out in the description of Persistent Powers that we've both quoted above. But I did go ahead and do a quick search just now on 'dispel persistent rules questions site:herogames.com' and found a link to this answer from Steve Long. This covers both Characteristics and Persistent Powers. Per that question, Dispelling a Persistent Power requires the user to reactivate it (normally a Zero Phase Action on his next Phase, unless there's some Limitation or other reasons in play that he can't).

 

I'm not seeing anywhere that dispel has special extra stuff it does to foci.  Is that in previous editions or something? I don't see it in this one.  I could be wrong, but you guys seem to be pulling this out of thin air for me, and the rule call you're suggesting is extremely unbalancing.  If I can dispel your body and kill you, with the only defense being Power Defense, you can't restart your body on your next phase, because you're dead.  That seems out of scope for a 3 point per d6 power.

Sure. I'll quote the paragraph and call the relevant part out in boldface. From 6e1 p. 193:

 

"The victim of a Dispel may “restart” the Dispelled power, but he has to start from scratch — he must perform any preparations again. This means Dispel is more effective against powers that are difficult to turn on or take a long time to activate (like many Fantasy spells) or against objects (which must be repaired, recharged, or rebuilt)."

 

The specific part relevant to Foci is on 6e1 p. 197:

 

"Focus: If a character Dispels a power in a Breakable Focus, look at the special effects involved to determine what happens. For example, if the Dispel is defined as "breaking small objects," the Focus probably needs some repairs — maybe just quick field jury-rigging, maybe something more — before it will work again. If the Dispel involves sucking all the battery power out of the Focus, the Focus needs recharging. Unbreakable Foci behave similarly, but are considered Difficult To Dispel (x16) solely for purposes of resisting Dispel. If a character Dispels only one power in a multiple power Focus, that power ceases to function until "fixed," while the other powers remain unaffected."

 

(You can't Dispel Characteracteristics, for the reason you mention. I'd personally permit the Dispelling of Characteristics bought as Powers, because I feel the "Power-ness" overwhelms the "Characteristic-ness" and because there are some other goodies that they get (for instance, being exempt from Characteristics Maxima).)

 

If that is only true for foci...  I just don't see that rule.  I'm not trying to be thick here.

It's called out for Foci as a special case, but not for anything else. Therefore, it's only true for Foci, and not for a character's inherent Powers, though depending on the special effect it could apply to them as well. I'd lean strongly against it for inherent Powers unless the Power had a specific Limitation to the contrary, though. I'll also note that especially in heroic games, many Foci are built with Limitations to the effect of Real Weapon, Real Armor, sometimes Fragile, and those Limitations in particular tend to result in broken Foci. For instance, I wouldn't let the Spell of Rusty Doom rust away Thor's hammer, period, but a set of 8 DEF full plate? Definitely.

 

Also, it seems like we're just arguing the part where a persistent power either auto restarts or takes a 0 phase to restart. Assuming I'm wrong, and it's a 0 phase action, how does that equal a broken object since you can just...spend the 0 phase and restart the power through the focus.

Special effects and the paragraph from p. 197. If there were a hypothetical Dispel power called Flip The Switch (Dispel vs. electric and mechanical Powers) it would turn the Power off. And yes, a Persistent Power ordinarily takes a 0 Phase action, unless it's got Extra Time. Most spells, for instance, might have Extra Time, but could also have Limitations like Expendable Focus, Charges, Increased END Cost, and so on, that would make them inconvenient at best to reactivate.

[Aversill]

Thanks.  I'm an idiot.  I see the part about the focus now. 

 

So, if I have a power that is, say, Gremlin:  Dispel against Variable Effect (foci), I can just destroy foci.  That seems really powerful and fairly out of scope with the power's cost.  Don't most games rely on foci?  Is that because someone felt that the focus limitation wasn't limiting enough?  I don't get it.

[Tasha]

Thanks.  I'm an idiot.  I see the part about the focus now. 

 

So, if I have a power that is, say, Gremlin:  Dispel against Variable Effect (foci), I can just destroy foci.  That seems really powerful and fairly out of scope with the power's cost.  Don't most games rely on foci?  Is that because someone felt that the focus limitation wasn't limiting enough?  I don't get it.

It's probably because Dispel was created for use in Fantasy Hero. Where Dispels typically CAN destroy magical items (ie they dispel all of the magic that enchants a particular item) A Magical Sword that has it's enchantment dispelled is still a Sword and can still be used as one. The Wand of Fireballs becomes a pointy dowel, basically worthless.

 

Gremlin's Dispel Variable Effect (Technology) can only target one power on the focus at once. So her power could cause the gun to jam to the point of requiring repair, or make a car immobile by dispelling it's running. Against Defender's Power Armor she would have to hit it multiple times, once for each power to make the focus useless. It's up to the GM with player's input how damaged the Focus would be after being hit with a dispel that dispels all of the powers on the device. I would usually rule that it takes the power out until the device could be reasonably repaired. (Perhaps with a good Gunsmith roll for the gun jamming, or a good mechanics roll, but that's up to the GM).

 

Also don't look at the cost per die. Effective dispels are VERY expensive to buy. You have to overcome Active points in the Power to dispel it. It's all or nothing. You either succeeded in dispelling the effect or not. Also it only works against ONE power specified when you buy the power. You can buy either Expanded effect to effect more than one power at the same time (you still have to specify what powers are effected) and/or you can buy Variable Effect that allows you to effect any One power of a given special effect or other large group (ie Magic, Technology, Attack Powers etc). This drives the cost up quite a bit. ie for a DC12 game the Dispel must exceed 60 active points which will be equivalent to 20d6 if bought with Standard effect, slightly less if you roll for the points (1d6 averages 3.5 pips per die).

 

You could buy cumulative Dispel for stuff like Stark's Virus that take some time or that take more than one application to actually break the ability.

 

 

 

Foci destroying Dispels are pretty rare in superheroic Games. They sometimes DO exist (ie Tony Stark's Starktech destroying Virus he used in the Armor Wars story arc), but otherwise you don't see them often.

[Christopher]

The three usual ways have been noted already, but I will reierate them:

Dispel - Primarily it's to disrupt the currently running "instance" of a power. It does not usually affect reactivation. The ability to "destroy" Foci is a muddy terrain. Keep in mind that "Indestructible" Foci have Power defense against Dispel.

 

Killing Attack, Limited - The advantage is that this approach does not require any GM calls. You hit  focus with enough damage, it looses powers or is destroyed entirely. Destructability and Takeability are the core of the Focus Limitation. Destructability is also part of "Physical Manifestation".

 

Transform: No power can permanently take away a power. Except Transform. You will need the 3rd or 4th level, but Transform can take away a power. It has been used for "Speedster dismantels powerarmor" things, when the healing condition was set to "re-don/assemble armor". There are rules to treat a focus with multiple powers as a single Power. The transform approach can affect OIAID things (like making your powerarmor a OIAID to avoid Focus disadvatanges). Again Indestructible Foci have quite a bit of Power Resistance against Transform.

 

 

I guess wich the right one depends on: Defenses you want this to go against, Wich you want to be more absolute (indestrictuble/OIAID or the Dismantel Power), powerlevel and campaign (as Tasha points out, Focus destroying Dispel seems more fitting for heroic rather then superheroic).

[Grailknight]

This is generally a Campaign Setting.

 

In Fantasy and Heroic settings, foci are equipment and do not cost Character Points. So Dispel would break these foci unless they are defined as unbreakable.

 

In Supers games, foci cost Character Points. Although there is no RAW difference per se, Dispel would generally break only foci with Real Weapon or Fragile limitations. It would generally only turn off others. 

 

Killing Attack and Transform would be best in Superheroic  Campaigns.

[rjcurrie]

This is generally a Campaign Setting.

 

In Fantasy and Heroic settings, foci are equipment and do not cost Character Points. So Dispel would break these foci unless they are defined as unbreakable.

 

In Supers games, foci cost Character Points. Although there is no RAW difference per se, Dispel would generally break only foci with Real Weapon or Fragile limitations. It would generally only turn off others. 

 

Killing Attack and Transform would be best in Superheroic  Campaigns.

 

Remember when people are talking about Dispel breaking foci, they're not talking about the focus going away and the player having to buy the power all over again.  They're talking about requiring repairs being needed to get it going again, which is part of the deal with foci.  Sometimes you won't be able to use them.