Gimme some Opinions

[Dinofreak2000]

this is my first time posting (atleast i think it is, i only just made this account) and for a good reason. All you out there are Hero's fans. I hope all of you also have experience withit (i prefere to not assume, but if you look above i did with the fan bit).

So, i have been playing these things (RPGs that is) for 14 years now, over half my life, great that. And have become dis-enchanted with Palladium's clunky system, FASA's (though FASA is no gone, leaving a Wizkid in their place) odd sense of RPing (no offense to be taken, just my opinion) and the current incarnation of D&D (and then tyhere are those dark days of White Wolf and so many others it drives me crazy).

 

My quest has brought me as of late to two systems. On one hand i have experience in GURPS (please, hold your breakfast lunch and Dinner till the end) with it's many facets (from cave men to Jedi). But always i have had in interest with my other hand which balances HERO system.

 

Now, before i go and dispose of the vast collection of RPG tomes that i own, i would like anyone's opinion on which system is, in their opinions, better. GURPS or HERO?

 

Both offer what i seek, but to an extent i want something new and with less books (to often i pick up a GURPS book only to berefered to 5-8 other GURPS books as i read through it).

 

I have read so many rants and raves for each system. Both seem fan-blooming-tastic! So please dispell the only points i see having a problem getting an swer on everywhere else.

 

Well, to re-iterrate, which is best? and so i can get alittle more info here are a couple other questions:

 

How is magic simulated in Hero? Psionics?

Experience system and character growth?

How long does it actually take to make a character? average

How "complicated" is combat? how exactly does it work?

how does the system lend itself to ad hoc GMing?

 

Thanx for any and all feedback. i ask all this because a book like Hero 5th Edition looks like it was made for self defense more then to be read (like War and Peace). Those sharp corners attest to it.

 

Well, fire away, i am listening and will be sure to ask more questinos later

[lemming]

I think I ran my last Gurps game in 1987. However, I still pick the supplements since they're well written for the most part.

 

I like playing Hero more and the new line of books are better than ever.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Gimme some Opinions

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

Well, to re-iterrate, which is best? and so i can get alittle more info here are a couple other questions:

I can't compare the two, however, I can answer your questions.

How is magic simulated in Hero?

 

Short answer - however you want it to . Hero can simulate any particular "type" of magic, or even more than one at once. For a Vancian magic system (D&D), it can be done using a Multiform (for sorcery) or a Variable Power Pool (for wizards, druids, and clerics) with Charges. For mana-based casting, an endurance reserve. You can even make up your own style of magic, such as blood magic, etc. There is a supplement (Fantasy Hero) that details fully worked-out ways of doing magic, but you don't need it. I have had magic-using characters play in my games without a big fuss.

 

Or if you were looking for an evaluation, Excellently.

Psionics?

Again, however you need it to. D&D psionics can be done with a Multipower, an Endurance Reserve, and (for 2E) Activation Roll.

Experience system and character growth?

Characters are made using a pool of character points which buy statistics, powers, etc (nothing is random for generating characters). Every night, the GM gives a set number of Experience Points based on his evaluation of how well the PCs did, which they then spend improving the character. It is not level based at all, characters gain things gradually.

 

How long does it actually take to make a character? average

Fairly long time. I take about 3 hours for a finished NPC, and typically spend about 6 on a PC. Of course, I am anal-retentive about characters. If you want to make a throwaway thug, you can do it in a minute or two, and if you want a one-shot villain, you should be able to toss them together in 15 or 20. If you aren't overly picky, you should be able to make characters in an hour or two after some practice. However, this is one of the main drawbacks of Hero - character creation is far more time-intensive than D&D or essentially any other system.

How "complicated" is combat? how exactly does it work?

how does the system lend itself to ad hoc GMing?

The system is unusual in that it takes a long time to learn, but once you learn it, things seem very simple. Hero has a steep but short learning curve - hard to learn, easy to master. The reason is the high level of internal consistency - things aren't arbitrary, so you can understand clear, well-defined principles and put everything together, but only once you wade through it all.

 

The basis of the system is d6. 3d6 is used for checks and attack rolls, going to roll under a given number. Varying numbers of d6 are used for damage and such. If you poke around on the website, there is probably a description; I don't want to spell out too much because of copyright issues.

 

How does it take to ad-hoc GMing? Pretty well. Things don't need to be linked to each other, so you can generally BS them easily. For a comparitive example, in D&D, all 15th level fighters will have comparitive levels of AC, Attack, Damage, Skills, HP, etc. If the NPC who you are making up on the fly without rolling up hits PCs all the time with 3 attacks per round, but goes down after 55 points of damage, the PCs will know you were faking. If the HeroSystem NPC whomps them with a huge attack, but goes down after two solid hits, they might just not have had much in the way of defense.

 

 

Thanx for any and all feedback. i ask all this because a book like Hero 5th Edition looks like it was made for self defense more then to be read (like War and Peace). Those sharp corners attest to it.

 

Well, fire away, i am listening and will be sure to ask more questinos later

 

My overall assessment of Hero is thus: Massively steep learning curve, and a long time to make characters, balanced by incredible potential for mastery, and ultimate flexibility in controlling the characters and the world. I can't emphasize this enough - FLEXIBILITY. Hero is easy to use for anything. You can sit down, and given enough time, make any character you envision, unlike many other game systems (subject to what your DM will allow]. If you want to make a vampiric Kraptonian sentient worm with mutant powers, you can. If you can find a GM who will allow it, you are hallucinating

[Pteryx]

Re: Gimme some Opinions

 

Someone's probably going to beat me to posting to this degree, but...

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

Now, before i go and dispose of the vast collection of RPG tomes that i own, i would like anyone's opinion on which system is, in their opinions, better. GURPS or HERO?

 

Depends on whether you're looking for something more realistic or more cinematic. I've heard it said that GURPS is a good system if you want a reasonable idea of what'd really happen if you picked up the bokken you don't really know how to use and whacked your neighbor with it. HERO, on the other hand, is more geared towards what'd be most likely to happen if that scenario were to occur in some visual storytelling medium.

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

How is magic simulated in Hero? Psionics?

 

Magic: Basically, however you want. You build spells (and most everything else) with Powers, Advantages, and Limitations. With these and Power Frameworks, you can pretty much make any kind of magic system you want. Fantasy HERO offers many sample magic systems and guidelines for making your own. If you want magic to be wild and uncontrolled without a wand, you can do it. If you want to make gestures and incantations an optional powerup for a spell, you can do that too. Want a choice as to whether or not spells fail and how? No problem!

 

Psionics: The same, though it's worth mentioning that there's complex rules for the interaction of Mental Powers (the directly mind-affecting stuff).

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

Experience system and character growth?

 

The GM assigns Experience Points. An Experience Point equals a Character Point. Couldn't be simpler.

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

How long does it actually take to make a character? average

 

That depends on your experience with the system, but longer than average for any type of character with extensive Power use and pretty average otherwise.

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

How "complicated" is combat? how exactly does it work?

 

It can be maddeningly complicated if you want it to be, but generally it's best to only use the options that actually make sense for the genre you're running. The core bits are STUN and BODY (damage that can knock you out vs. actual injuries that could kill you), the Speed Chart (every character has a SPD which determines when in the course of a 12-second turn they get to act), Normal and Killing Damage (Killing Damage ignores defense that isn't Resistant and is slightly better at dealing BODY), and OCV and DCV (how good you are at delivering and avoiding blows, both determined by DEX).

 

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

how does the system lend itself to ad hoc GMing?

 

One really needs to get used to the system before one can pull it off. The learning curve looks square root-like -- steep at first, but then it quickly levels off. The system is very internally consistent.

 

And now to step back and let the experienced players talk... -- Pteryx

[Captain Obvious]

Looks like your questions have been answered already. All I have to say is, Don't throw any of your old RPG books away. Take what's good from them and convert to Hero.

[Toadmaster]

If you are familiar with GURPS and like it then HERO shouldn't be a problem as far as using the rules (there are many similarities) but I won't say you will like it, some GURPS players hate HERO and vice versa, I happen to like both but currently I am more into HERO. The lots of books with GURPS is both good and bad, good because of all the books, bad because you have to buy so many if you are going to run in very many genres, even Fantasy could require 4 or more books to run (Magic, Psionics, Fantasy and GURPS book). This could also be said about HERO except that the main book includes all the rules you will need for any genre, buying a genre book like Fantasy Hero will be helpful for ideas and to supply premade stuff but it is not required. GURPS is more "detailed" while HERO tends to resolve things with one roll. For example in combat GURPS may roll vs Passive defense, parry, dodge, plus a variety of attack and defense choices. HERO combat is resolved with one roll, dodging just subtracts from the attackers roll, blocking is an exception where the defender gets a roll for success.

 

Character generation can be complex and time consuming but once you have it down its not too bad, I used to make characters in class during high school from memory (just making notes on a sheet of binder paper) and would just double check costs and such when I got home and could check the books.

 

Basically if you like GURPS but think there is something better out there I'd say HERO is a worthwhile investment, if you are pretty happy with GURPS (or think GURPS is too simple) you may not like HERO. HERO definately is the more flexible of the two if you like many genres. DoJ is working on a "light" version of HERO, don't know what the price is going to be, but if you are really on the fence you might wait until it comes out, otherwise go out and buy HERO if you like the descriptions the others have posted. Also as you will see from looking around here, HERO has a very active and helpful internet presence and the staff at DoJ are very responsive to the players and in fact the HERO sidekick (light version) is the result of suggestions from the fans.

[Dinofreak2000]

yes... i jump for joy and other happy things (mmmm... happy things)

 

You have been most informative. As for not getting rid of my books... well, i will dump them only because i know them through and through (and half my players own them as well, makes it hard to suprise them sometimes). So it sounds like i have a basis to begin my own spread sheet on my choice (i am really odd that way, creating pages on pages of pros/cons and rating systems... then tallying them to see who comes out on top... yes i am an addict... but i'm proud of it dangit!!!)

oh, and as for genre, it changes so often with my group (or it did, i keep forgetting i have moved) that any and all genres are desireable

 

ooo... i just noticed the little pic in the margin changes regularly... spiffy...

 

thanx again... in a week i'll check out the main book and see if i can decipher the character sheet (usually i can understand a game by the character sheet, but this one uses not so standard abreviavtions... wow i suck at spelling)

 

anyone give me an idea of where i can get more info on the rules set? the more technical stuff...

[Killer Shrike]

Check out the official Intro to the HERO System here:

http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/freedocs/HRO_int.pdf

[Pteryx]

Did someone say character sheet?

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/FreeStuff/csheets.htm

 

If you're good at deciphering a game from its character sheet, here's several, including the one from FREd itself. As for the abbreviations:

 

Primary Characteristics:

STR: Strength

DEX: Dexterity

CON: Constitution

BODY: Body

INT: Intelligence

EGO: Ego

PRE: Presence

COM: Comeliness

 

Figured Characteristics:

PD: Physical Defense (nonresistant by default)

ED: Energy Defense (also nonresistant by default)

SPD: Speed

REC: Recovery

END: Endurance

STUN: Stun

 

Hope that helps. -- Pteryx

[Farkling]

Looks like you have all your answers currently.

 

I have an observation for you. HERO simulates movies/television/comics more than reality. GURPS seems to handle reality a little better. Translation::

HERO works well from the level of James Bond up to Superman, and by nature of the toolkit, is easily multi-genre, though you need to set up the base rules yourself. GURPS in my experience works well below the level of James Bond, and all you need is the appropriate book. Keep your GURPS library intact though if you plan to revisit. GURPS makes some of the most genre specific detailed sourcebooks on the market.

 

How is magic simulated in Hero? Psionics?

Like they said...you can design it yourself. At the loosest, it'll look like Saturday morning cartoon DnD, at its tightest you can set up something very Cthuluian.

 

Experience system and character growth?

Here are your experience points. Don't spend them all in one place. GM approval is required for exceeding campaing limits or buying skills that don't fit your character

 

How long does it actually take to make a character? average

I have used feared (recurring too) villains that were created in ten minutes and consisted of nothing more than 3 short power descriptions, dex, and defenses. I have created in a few hours, villains with world destroying powers that will endanger the solar system. I have simple spreadsheet of agents that prints in just a minute, and the combat tactics were cooked up from "what will the heroes do?"

 

How "complicated" is combat? how exactly does it work?

Hmmm....it's more predictable than DnD, but I prefer it that way. (I only vaguely remember the GURPS system...sorry). Using 3d6 yields a bell curve (most likely to roll an 11 or less on the 3d6)...once the players are experienced, they'll be able to guess how easy it is to hit a villain...a little more and less realistic. There's even a "hit DCV X" chart somewhere around here. The players can roll the dice, add their OCV and tell you what DCV they hit. Works well with my DnD / Palladiumers.

 

I fear no copyright violation...after all, I'm schmoozing for HERO on their own website.

Short version of how it works. Attacker shoots/swings. Rolls to hit versuss defender's DCV (natural dodge, sort of). Damage is rolled. Totals added up for STUN and BODY. Defenses subtract from both. Remainder is damage. BODY is physical injury...STUN is concussion/disorientation/bruising/etc, non permanent damage.

 

how does the system lend itself to ad hoc GMing?

I can do it. Others here can do it. We're veteran Hero GM's and Storytellers and DM's and other things... HERO can be done quick and simple. For the anal retentive GM, I recommend a computer and Hero Designer or MetaCreator software. It's soooo much easier to manufacture and track characters with that. I still use my notebook, but I have backup files of ALL the agents/weapons, heroes and villains.

[zornwil]

Re: Re: Gimme some Opinions

 

Originally posted by Fireg0lem

I Fairly long time. I take about 3 hours for a finished NPC, and typically spend about 6 on a PC.

 

The system is unusual in that it takes a long time to learn, but once you learn it, things seem very simple. Hero has a steep but short learning curve - hard to learn, easy to master. The reason is the high level of internal consistency - things aren't arbitrary, so you can understand clear, well-defined principles and put everything together, but only once you wade through it all.

 

 

I also don't play GURPS so cannot compare. I think the HERO-only questions are being answered well so I have no wish to repeat but did snip heavily from the above and wanted to single out these 2 points and give how my mileage varies...

 

Re the first paragraph quoted, I do it in very roughly half the time, FYI, but of course that varies a lot.

 

Re the second paragraph, personally, I feel differently quite a bit. I think it's easy to learn, hard to master. I feel it's easy to get into and play the game, unless you have some sort of built-in bias (personally I feel a lot of groups who can't get past "the math" just don't want to play the system to begin with - I realize a few groups don't fit that description and I know some will be rather upset that I characterize it that way but..just my opinion). I think it's much harder to learn where the exceptions are and deal with some of the more minute details that can add a lot but really aren't necessary to normal play.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Farkling

(snip)

Translation::

HERO works well from the level of James Bond up to Superman, and by nature of the toolkit, is easily multi-genre, though you need to set up the base rules yourself. GURPS in my experience works well below the level of James Bond, and all you need is the appropriate book.

(snip)

 

So, you're saying GURPS works well if you want to play an Office Worker campaign? Or also for that exciting Unemployed Drug Warriors in the Ghetto genre?

 

[Dinofreak2000]

wow Zornwil, i haven't seen that lizard man pic (your avatar) since that really old Monster MAnual in ADnD. Cool it be yes!!!

 

thnak you for all that info guys. I will most definitely look into HERO before i make any choices now.

 

Later Days

[TheEmerged]

RE: How HERO handles [insert here].

 

Best way I can think of to explain this is that HERO doesn't worry about the WAY something is done so much as WHAT is done.

 

HERO doesn't care whether the damage is caused by magic, psionics, or technology. It's an energy blast, RKA, or whatever that you *define* as being a magical spell.

 

I've seen magic systems under HERO that had no power construction -- only skills (it was built as a conversion of Ars Magicka). I've seen magic systems any superheroic campaign would be proud of. I've seen them built as individual powers and as power frameworks.

 

RE: HERO vs GURPS

 

HERO is far superior -- and I mean by more the ten times -- for cross-genre campaigns. GURPS breaks down very, very quickly whenever you have two "effect sources" (like magic, psionics, high tech, martial arts, etc) operating in the same campaign.

 

However, there are two areas I have to give GURPS the nod in. GURPS does have a better "low end" granularity than HERO, meaning that if your characters aren't much superior to the average person (like a low-end fantasy campaign) it actually has an edge here. It's a slight edge however (less than +10%).

 

GURPS also has some very enjoyable psionic rules -- but again, only on the low end and only if you stick to one "effect source".

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

wow Zornwil, i haven't seen that lizard man pic (your avatar) since that really old Monster MAnual in ADnD. Cool it be yes!!!

 

thnak you for all that info guys. I will most definitely look into HERO before i make any choices now.

 

Later Days

 

It also matches a playing card from this sort of of space war "simulation" that I have and don't recall, but I found the image online unattributed. I always thought it was baesd on the game, thanks for the Monster Manual tip!

[Rene]

Originally posted by zornwil

So, you're saying GURPS works well if you want to play an Office Worker campaign? Or also for that exciting Unemployed Drug Warriors in the Ghetto genre?

 

Such games are more popular than one might think. There are people who enjoy roleplaying mostly normal people getting involved in adventures. Not me though. I favor the epic.

 

GURPS cover this kind of game very well. There is a lot you can do based in historical fiction, horror fiction, mistery fiction, and stuff like that. GURPS tends to break when you add too much fantastical elements in character creation, though.

[jnormandin]

Originally posted by Dinofreak2000

So it sounds like i have a basis to begin my own spread sheet on my choice (i am really odd that way, creating pages on pages of pros/cons and rating systems... then tallying them to see who comes out on top... yes i am an addict... but i'm proud of it dangit!!!)

 

Then Hero is for you

[JmOz]

Hero is great

 

I do suggest picking up Ver 2.0 of Hero Designer (A software program that will help you make characters, I give it a B+/A-) when it comes out

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Rene

Such games are more popular than one might think. There are people who enjoy roleplaying mostly normal people getting involved in adventures.

 

 

Hero works just as well for normal people as long as everyone knows what to expect and what is expected of them before the game begins.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Alibear

Hero works just as well for normal people as long as everyone knows what to expect and what is expected of them before the game begins.

 

Maybe, but one common complaint is that there is no diversity to normal characters in HERO. I'm not sure about that. GURPS characters usually have Attributes ranging from 8 to 16. HERO has 8, 10, 13, 15, 18... I don't see it as so much more limited, but some people disagree.

 

Both HERO and GURPS have large selections of Skills, Perks, and Disadvantages. GURPS allows you to fine-tune skill levels more precisely. As for GURPS Advantages, you can rebuild them in HERO using Powers and Skills (and creativity).

 

Things can get weird in combat, though. Even using all the optional damage rules, HERO combat is still a little too cinematic. Guns are less dangerous in HERO than in GURPS, for instance.

[Farkling]

For increased lethality in HERO, lower the value of resistant armor, and require realistic limits for specific weapons types.

 

And invoke Standard Effect at 4 BODY per D6 KA.

 

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Rene

Maybe, but one common complaint is that there is no diversity to normal characters in HERO. I'm not sure about that. GURPS characters usually have Attributes ranging from 8 to 16. HERO has 8, 10, 13, 15, 18... I don't see it as so much more limited, but some people disagree.

 

 

I am co-gming a shared world at the moment. Five of us designed characters with 25+25 points, the diversity is staggering.

 

We have a dex's of 10, 11, 12, 14 & 17, a str's of 9, 10, 13, 15 & 18.

 

We have a combat monster with practically no skills and has spent all his points on stats and "axemaster".

 

We have a Polearm-MA-type, a hunter with a knack of hitting the heart, a jouneyman wizard, and an initiate of a God of Thieves who have basically spent all thier points on skills.

 

Very diverse I think.

[Col. Orange]

GURPS is GREAT for small scale, low point stuff but cack for high powered stuff (In GURPS Black Ops it became hard to tell any of our characters apart - even though we were all from different departments (I was a Tech Op, and was as good a shot as the Combat Op, who was as good a sneak as the Security Op, who was as good a, uh, Programmer as the Science Op, who was as good an Electrician as my Tech Op) and GURPS Supers is beyond the work of the devil - its the work of something far worse).

Main complaints are:

1) Too few Stats - even making Willpower and Perception (Alertness/Acute Senses) separate stats doesn't fix this.

2) Passive Defense - fixable (either ignore it or say any hit that is dodged/blocked/parried only by the amount of PD still hit but at reduced (half?) damage (makes a "glancing blow" with a two handed axe still dangerous)).

3) Defense vs. Close Combat (Grappling) - If you're swinging a bastard sword about, a wrestler can still just walk up to you and grab you. The only way of stopping this happening is keep 2 hexes between you and him at all times (in which case he may simply try to Slam you) or take a "Step & Wait" maneuver and hope that you hit, do enough damage to kill him or mess up his attack (unless he's got High Pain Threshold) - and even if you hit, he gets his full defenses (Yup, you can walk up to someone, dodging or parrying their weapon, AND grab them about the neck, all within one second and without any penalty).

[pant, pant, pant]

Excuse me, I have issues.

 

HERO is great for high powered stuff but clunky for low powered stuff (with NCM all characters become quite similar fairly quickly).

[Pattern Ghost]

I think Alibear hit the nail on the head, really. It's not the low power end that encourages sameness in characteristics, it's the "low-medium" end, the 75-75 or so, where you have NCM and enough points to both max out vital stats and buy all the things you have on your wish list for your character concept. With 25+25 or 50+50, which are more in line with gritty low-level adventuring, characters will be more forced to choose between stats and abilities.

 

Besides that: How can characters created within a system with so many options really be "all the same" just because there's a clustering of characteristics around certain points? My 15 STR fighter and your 15 STR thief probably look a LOT different once you get down to the real meat of the characters, which are the sklls, special abilities, and background.

 

Even at higher point totals, if your players are building to concept, you shouldn't have too much similarity. I have yet to see any two characters submitted with anything close to the same concept. In any game, by any player of any experience level. It could happen. It just isn't that big of a problem IME.

 

Just my .02.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Alibear

We have a Polearm-MA-type, a hunter with a knack of hitting the heart, a jouneyman wizard, and an initiate of a God of Thieves who have basically spent all thier points on skills.

 

Very diverse I think.

 

I don't know, I've never played in low-powered games. I'm just talking about stuff I've heard.

 

But it's true that a lot depends on the players and the GM. Some groups will not max out STR, DEX, and CON just because it's advantageous to do so. Some groups are more creative in coming up with low-power custom-build special abilities to further differentiate characters. Some groups will have lots of background skills, and so forth, and so forth.