Easier to hit in phase 12?

[mhd]

Quick query: I've just downloaded the "Hero Combat Survival Guide" and I'm a bit confused by the "It's phase 12" column in the "If you are problems hitting your foe" section. The recommendation is waiting until your foe moves as he can't abort then.

 

What's so special about phase 12 here? I mean, if I wait after the foe took his actions, he can't abort anyway, as that would mean acting twice in a segment (6E2 22 is pretty specific about that happening in segment 12 as well). And if the attacker is acting right before the character, I didn't see anything that prevents him from using his first phase in the next turn.

 

But, well, my reading comprehension was wrong before often enough

[ghost-angel]

The only difference between Phase 12 and any other Phase you act on, is everyone goes on 12, meaning if you're having trouble hitting a Target with a Different Speed you will always have an overlapping action on Phase12 with which to act that they can't abort on if they have already acted.

 

If you're Speed 3 and they're Speed 4 then Phase 12 will be the only Phase in which you both act and they will never be able to Abort from once they've acted already. The rest of the Turn the Speed 4 Character will have 'reset' their Abort ability when it rolls to a new Segment (Speed 4 will Move on Phase 3, if you're Speed 3 and attack on Phase 4 then they can Abort if needed).

 

If you are equal Speeds, then you can use this advice on any Phase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Thanks Ghost-Angel, its basically a short hand way of saying all that, making it as simple as possible.  I suppose I could shift it to say "you both move on the same phase."

[mhd]

That makes sense, of course. I'm more used to heroic gaming, where acting on the same segment is often more the rule than the exception so I didn't jump to that conclusion right away.

[Sean Waters]

First phase 12 is a silly segment to try to hit on as your opponent gets an immediate recovery.  You should consider holding attacks until segment one or the segment immediately before your next phase, unless tactical considerations dictate otherwise.  Mind you then everyone does it and we get into Hold Wars, which is also silly.

 

Bear in mind the advice the OP was querying only works if the opponent you are trying to hit does not also hold their action.

 

If people decide to do a lot of holding and dodging then combats last forever, unless their is a really big Speed difference.  Bear in mind though that two SPD 3 characters can keep a SPD 5 or 6 character dodging almost constantly.  None of that is terribly interesting though.

[Greywind]

Keep in mind that the first Phase 12, the moment when combat is initiated, can result in a stunned character since they may not have been expecting a fight, and that they won't get unstunned until some time during the next turn.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah they will burn their post-12 recovery recovering from stun if you pound them hard enough (perhaps a nice coordinated attack).  In any case, its not often that a target has so vast a recovery that they'll get back all the damage you do to them in a good hit.

[Greywind]

You can't get unstunned post segment. You actually have to burn a phase in order to get unstunned.

[Hyper-Man]

Yep.

 

Recovering from being Stunned and Taking a Recovery are 2 mutually exclusive Actions.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well ok we've just been doing that as a house rule: if you're stunned on phase 12, you have to use the post 12 to get unstunned, not a normal recovery.  As I understand the rules, you can't recover until you've recovered from being stunned, so that would seem a logical extension of the rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Nope.

 

The 2 rules are completely separate.

 

from 6e2 page 106

Recovering from being Stunned is not the same thing as taking a Recovery. A character regains no STUN when he recovers from being Stunned, he merely shakes off the effects of being Stunned (such as having ½ DCV). A character can recover from being Stunned even if he cannot breathe or holds his breath.

 

and from 6e2 page 129

 

After Segment 12 each Turn, all characters (even Stunned ones) get a free Post-Segment 12 Recovery. This Recovery occurs automatically (unless the character’s holding his breath [see below] or is deeply unconscious). Characters get a Post-Segment 12 Recovery even if they’re taking damage from a Constant attack.

 

[bigbywolfe]

Well ok we've just been doing that as a house rule: if you're stunned on phase 12, you have to use the post 12 to get unstunned, not a normal recovery.  As I understand the rules, you can't recover until you've recovered from being stunned, so that would seem a logical extension of the rules.

You can't "take a Recovery" because that is an action that you can't perform because you are Stunned, but being Stunned does not stop you from getting a PS12 recovery which everyone gets all the time (unless knocked out past a certain level).  Depending on the game letting someone, especially a slower character, un-Stun for free is WAY better than getting a few points of Stun back.  I wouldn't want to play that way at all.  

 

EDIT: Scooped.  I type too slow...

[Sean Waters]

OK, so if you have your opponent surprised, hit them before they are not to get improved chance to hit and damage, otherwise wait until after the PS12: it is just simple maths - if you are SPD 4 and hit before PS 12, your maximum average damage (MAD) by the end of next turn is 17.5xDC-REC, whereas if you hit after then the MAD is 17.5DC.

 

DC is your damage class.  REC is your opponent's recovery, the 17.5 is 5 (from your Segment 12 phase and your 4 phases next turn) x 3.5, that being the average damage per DC.

 

If you can hit and stun in Segment 12 without surprise then you might as well go for it: you clearly you have them overmatched anyway.

[ghost-angel]

First phase 12 is a silly segment to try to hit on as your opponent gets an immediate recovery.  You should consider holding attacks until segment one or the segment immediately before your next phase, unless tactical considerations dictate otherwise.  Mind you then everyone does it and we get into Hold Wars, which is also silly.

 

Bear in mind the advice the OP was querying only works if the opponent you are trying to hit does not also hold their action.

 

If people decide to do a lot of holding and dodging then combats last forever, unless their is a really big Speed difference.  Bear in mind though that two SPD 3 characters can keep a SPD 5 or 6 character dodging almost constantly.  None of that is terribly interesting though.

 

Yeah, but the question had nothing to do with doing damage or recovery - it had everything to do with "trouble hitting a target" - waiting for Phase 1 resets their Abort ability, and negates all the reasons to wait until Phase 12 to act in the first place.

[Greywind]

Not to mention that the rules specifically state that combat starts on Phase 12. Whenever the first shot is fired, the first punch is thrown, that is Phase 12.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Heh I guess people missed the "house rule" line.

[Hyper-Man]

Technically, it's only a house rule when there is a clear understanding of the base rule that is being changed.

 

To put it another way...

 

If HERO used the term 'Staggered' or 'Dazed' in place of every instance of 'Stunned' or recovering from being 'Stunned' would you still have a house rule?

[Sean Waters]

Yeah, but the question had nothing to do with doing damage or recovery - it had everything to do with "trouble hitting a target" - waiting for Phase 1 resets their Abort ability, and negates all the reasons to wait until Phase 12 to act in the first place.

 

If we are talking about start of combat, you can abort anyway, unless you can't because you are surprised (in which case see my earlier post).  If we are not talking about start of combat then why does anyone need to take their action on segment 12? If they wait for segment 1 they don't lose an action*.  If they wait until the segment before their next phase they lose nothing.  The question assumes that the other fella has taken a phase this segment.  That could work in segment 12, as everyone has a phase in segment 12, but it also works if you hold your phase and the opponent takes a phase...as mhd pointed out in the OP.  There is nothing special about segment 12, other than the fact that everyone** gets a recovery immediately after.

 

 

*unless you think hitting your opponent on segment 12 would mean that you or KO them to greater than -10 Stun, in which case it might be worth it.

 

**except the deeply unconscious***

 

***See all the rules

[ghost-angel]

It seems you have completely - and utterly - missed the actual question posed.

 

The question is in regards to a Combat Guide that posits If X - Then Y scenarios.

 

The scenario in question is "If you are having trouble hitting your opponent" an answer offered is "Then wait for Phase 12 and They have taken their Action already"

 

The reason being: Everyone goes on Phase 12, so the advice works for any and all speeds differences (see explanation Post 2); They can no longer Abort To Dodge/Block or Other Defensive Maneuvers; This advice has no other parameters.

 

No other conditions are presumed. Damage levels are not presumed. Defense levels are not presumed. It is merely advice for creating the Ideal Conditions To Prevent An Opponent From Aborting Defensively. And works for Any Combat Turn. Stop bringing up "the start of combat"

 

the Advice does also work if you Hold until your Opponents has already gone and can't abort, and then go, as well - however against a Higher Speed opponent that may not work as well as you think. Which is advice very similar to Wait For Phase 12, and everyone always goes on Phase 12.

[Greywind]

...unless they're holding their action to see what you will do.

[ghost-angel]

holding patterns not withstanding... it is a pretty last ditch effort to perform.

[Lucius]

...unless they're holding their action to see what you will do.

In which case, eventually, they use their action rather than lose it, or DO lose it because they've come around to their next phase. In either case, they act, and now you have a held action to hit them with (unless the action was to dodge or block, in which case at least you're forcing them to stay on the defensive, and should keep holding your action until they do something else.)

 

Or the two of you can stand there and stare at each other each waiting for the other to start to move first, like gunslingers or samurai...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I came here to kick ass or ride a palindromedary. And hey look, here's a palindromedary.

[Greywind]

Actually, it usually leads to DEX roll off to see who actually does go first.

[ghost-angel]

I would immediately do that, if both targets in a fight are holding for each other I wouldn't wait it out or talk it out, I'd just say - DEX Roll, winner acts Second (because if they're both holding for the other person, then obviously each believes acting second is the more desirable result).

[prestidigitator]

...unless they're holding their action to see what you will do.

I hear western showdown music playing.  Time for a surprise maneuver, probably with the aid of a little Acting or Persuasion.  [EDIT: Maybe even a Pre Attack monologue to get someone to act impulsively.]  Also good ways to improve your chances of hitting.