Intoxication

[pinecone]

You don't see the difference in mechanism between intoxication and addiction?

No...roll Con to avoid becoming affected, roll vs Con vs effects of addition...not seeing a need for a difference. Of course addictions come in both physical, and psychological versions. But I just don't see the need for two ways to do this.

 

I saw the -3 Con rolls as "I get tipsy in a hurry" Not, " I cannot say no to a drink", for me, that would be a Psychological lim, expl. "Hard Drinker" or a certain Irish Hero, who had a geas to never refuse a party...

[pinecone]

The difference I'm highlighting is the difference between being able to resist taking a drink and the ability of one's body to resist turning the act of consuming alcohol into being physically and mentally impared. I read the OP's description of centaurs ("-3 on CON Rolls to resist drunkenness") as the later, not the former.

Ah, I saw it just the opposite, a virtue filled non drinking Centaur can refuse drinks just fine, but if cajoled, or slipped a drink...still gets drunk easy, and being drunk, needs to roll to use good judgment to not drink more...

[bigbywolfe]

Ah, I saw it just the opposite, a virtue filled non drinking Centaur can refuse drinks just fine, but if cajoled, or slipped a drink...still gets drunk easy, and being drunk, needs to roll to use good judgment to not drink more...

That wouldn't be CON based, it would be EGO based.  CON is used because it is obviously referring to the physical symptoms of being intoxicated.

[pinecone]

That wouldn't be CON based, it would be EGO based.  CON is used because it is obviously referring to the physical symptoms of being intoxicated.

I don't understand what you are saying..? Are you saying that resisting intoxication is an act of will? (Ego roll) If so I strongly disagree intoxication is a physical effect. As an experiment try out drinking someone larger than your self, you may find that they can "hold their liqure" awfully well. One way to represent such a thing would be to buy up Con, not Ego...

 

At best I could see making an Ego roll to "push" your Con...?

[bigbywolfe]

No, I am saying resisting intoxication is CON based.  You were the one that suggested a CON roll to resist drunkenness meant using "good judgement to not drink more". THAT would be an EGO roll.

Honestly I'm having trouble following your thought process.  You're all over the place comparing the effects of intoxication to the effects of being addicted, bringing up other drugs and their legality, claiming that using judgement is a function of a CON roll.  I'm lost at what your actual position is as your last post actually agrees with me while the rest disagree.

[Hyper-Man]

On a more sobering note.

 

re: resisting addiction

 

So the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection.

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

[pinecone]

Perhaps we should create a conceptual model* here of alcohol. If the Centaur entry is any indication, Alcohol looks something like this (and forgive me for forgetting official wording, I don't have a book in front of me):

 

Fifth of cheap booze

Drain Attributes 1D6 (10 base points)

4 Attributes at once (Int, Dex, OCV, DCV; +1 1/2)

Wears off -5 every hour, not every turn (+1 3/4)

Charges (17.1 "shots"; + 1/4)

(45 Active Points)

OAF (-1) add fragile if glass bottle

Requires a Roll (Make a CON check with each shot taken to suffer effects; -1/2)

Limitation: Life Support--Poison Immunity gives immunity to this; -0**

Limitation: Some people develop addiction-based dependency complication regarding this; -0**

 

Does that look right to people?

 

**Not really a limitation, just taking note of these.

 

*one where we don't have to argue over the specifics, but maybe agree on the core mechanics.

If I was building as a power...I would forgo the focus, and have some sort of "Fairy dust" or Glamour power, that then has CE as an attack...otherwise ..yeah looks just fine.

[WistfulD]

If I was building as a power...I would forgo the focus, and have some sort of "Fairy dust" or Glamour power, that then has CE as an attack...otherwise ..yeah looks just fine.

For a Creat Drunkenness glamour, sure. I was making the booze itself a-la equipment guide rules. Of course I forgot to ad an AVAD for not vs. Power Defense, but for a fairy dust, power defense works just fine.

[pinecone]

For a Creat Drunkenness glamour, sure. I was making the booze itself a-la equipment guide rules. Of course I forgot to ad an AVAD for not vs. Power Defense, but for a fairy dust, power defense works just fine.

Yeah, it's just that when I go to the trouble to build something, I like it to be as "universal" as possible, so I would build it as a Glamour, and then include a Potion of the tipsy giant/ bottle of Jack, as a alternate...

[Lucius]

Is it really a Complication if you have a penalty for a rule that doesn't actually exist?

Actually yes, now I think of it.

 

Just as a Psychological Complication can impose an EGO roll at -5 to do something that ordinarily doesn't call for a roll, I can see a Physical Complication calling for a CON or DEX roll for something that doesn't ordinarily require it.

 

 

That general point aside, though, I do think this specific case is implying that a character who has been drinking is supposed to get a CON roll to see if they get intoxicated and/or by how much.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary drinks to that

[WistfulD]

Yeah, it's just that when I go to the trouble to build something, I like it to be as "universal" as possible, so I would build it as a Glamour, and then include a Potion of the tipsy giant/ bottle of Jack, as a alternate...

 

I'm fascinated by the idea that a glamour of drunkenness is a more universal conception of drunkenness than actual acohol for the drinking. Shine on you crazy diamond!

[Sean Waters]

Some thoughts based on extensive research…

 

Drinking alcohol:

Everyone gets Alcohol Resistance at a base of CON/2.

You can have that many units before there is any real measurable effect.

Each unit of alcohol (in the UK a unit is 10ml of pure alcohol, although we usually dilute it first…)

A pint of beer, for example, contains about 2 units, depending on strength.

 

Alcohol goes away at the rate of 1 unit an hour i.e. you get a point of Alcohol Resistance back for each hour of not drinking.

 

Your Drunkenness is your number of units consumed-hours since you started drinking-alcohol resistance.

 

Once that becomes a positive number, you gain the Stupid Idea skill at 8- +1 per point of drunkenness over your Alcohol Resistance.  Whenever you roll a skill check you also have to roll a Stupid Idea check and, if you succeed, well, I say succeed, then the skill is affected by a Stupid Idea.  This can be anything from a penalty to the roll to the suggestion above of Pantsing the Bailiff.  Generally the effect will be less severe if you just make the roll, more so if you do really well.  Er, badly.

 

You can buy additional Alcohol Resistance at 1 point per point, subject to any maximum the GM imposes.  You can buy Alcohol metabolism at 1 point per point, which doubles the number of units an hour you metabolise.

 

If you get to Alcohol Resistance x 2 in units, you have to make a CON roll to avoid throwing up, and the same at each additional multiple.

 

If you get to Alcohol Resistance x 3 then you have to make a CON roll to avoid a hangover the next morning.

 

If you get to Alcohol Resistance x 3 then you have to make a CON roll to avoid passing out, and the same at each additional multiple.

 

You can buy bonuses to your CON roll to deal with alcohol.

 

You can buy Complications to reduce any of the above rolls or resistances, or increase the rate your Stupid Idea skill improves at.  You may want to rename the Stupid Idea skill ‘Intoxication’ if the name seems like a stupid idea.

 

Joe Average has a CON of 10, so Alcohol Resistance 5. 

 

After his 3^rd 2 unit Pint he has Drunkenness 6, so Stupid Idea/Intoxication 9 (*+ 1 additional unit).

 

After 5 pints he has to start to roll to avoid throwing up, and is at 10 Drunkenness (SI/I 13-)

 

After 8 pints he has to start to roll to avoid passing out and is at 11 Drunkenness (SI/I 19-, which means everything he does is, at least, at a penalty).

 

Say it took 3 hours to get to that 8 pint mark, your actual Drunkenness would only be 8x2= 16-3 for the passage of time = 13, so you would not actually be in danger of passing out unless you continue drinking.

 

I would suggest skill penalties of -1 per 2 points you make the roll by, with other effects ranging from a minor social faux pas to deciding to scale the outside of a building naked, depending on how well the roll went.

[Sean Waters]

I appreciate this is far too rule heavy for many situations, but it is presented as a modelling system for intoxication that covers most bases and shows what you can do with the skill system if you want to.  Note the levels of intoxication are not entirely arbitrary but based on actual measurements of alcohol units used to determine whether you are too drunk to drive on British Roads.
 
Enjoy in moderation.
 
 
 
Concepts
Alcohol resistance: CON/2 (or 5, if you want to avoid figured characteristics) +1 per 1 point.
Drunkenness: 1 per unit of alcohol consumed -1 per hour that passes since you start drinking.
 
One unit of alcohol is the equivalent of 25ml of 40% by volume alcohol, or a single shot.  A pint of normal strength beer (4%) is about 2 units  A pint of strong beer (6%) is 3 units.  A glass of wine is about 2 units.  These are only approximate values.
 
At certain threshold levels, additional effects occur.
 
When Drunkenness exceeds Alcohol Resistance you are drunk, and you have an Intoxication Modifier.  This corresponds to drinking about 3 pints in an hour for an average person with 10 CON/5 Alcohol Resistance.
 
Intoxication modifier = (Drunkenness-Alcohol Resistance)/2, normal rounding i.e. 0.5 rounds up.
 
The modifier applies as a penalty to skill rolls and (at GM discretion) combat rolls.  It can also act as a modifier to Complication activation, perhaps increasing the chance of someone becoming Enraged, for example.
 
If Drunkenness => Alcohol Resistance x 2, you gain the Intoxicated ‘skill’.  This skill starts at a value of 8 or less and uses the Intoxication Modifier as a bonus.  This is the equivalent of about 6 pints in 2 hours or more over a longer period.
 
The GM may acquire limited control of your character: this should be used in moderation and the level of effect commensurate with the level of intoxication, but the GM can require you to take or avoid taking an action, or ‘re-write’ the way you perform an action.  If you agree with the GM, you can just roll play it, if not, you need to see if you are drunk enough to do it: roll your Intoxicated skill, which you may oppose with an EGO roll (The EGO roll does not take the Intoxication modifier, or you would be counting it twice.
 
Any GM imposed action should be appropriate to the situation, and, generally, appropriate for the character.  It would be ideal to impose an action that related to a psychological limitation, or other complication.
 
If Drunkenness => Alcohol Resistance x 3 (equivalent to about 9 pints over 4 hours) You have to start rolling to see if you become ill.  If you do not become ill, roll again at AR x 4, then AR x 5 etc.
 
Make an Intoxication Roll opposed by EGO, or CON if you are not using CON to calculate Alcohol Resistance.  If you succeed you become ill.  A marginal success (+0 to +2) indicates temporary incapacitation.  Your Intoxication Modifier doubles if you try to take any action.  This lasts until you fail an Intoxication Roll, or throw up.  Use the time chart to determine how often you can roll.
 
The GM should not impose any action on you while you are ill: you just want to sit quietly.
 
If you succeed by +3 or +4, you thrown up.  Reduce your level of Drunkenness by the margin of success.  If you are still at ARx3, roll again to become ill.
 
If you succeed by 5 or more, you lose control of your character.  This usually means you pass out, but can mean you black out, but continue to act, temporarily becoming an NPC.
 
In addition you have to make an Intoxication roll the next morning using your peak drunkenness value.  If you succeed then you are hung over, and the margin of success should be related to the time chart to determine how long the effect lasts.  Whilst hung over you have an Intoxication Modifier penalty to all actions, but can not be forced to take GM suggested actions.
 
Note also that alcohol does have some positive, or potentially positive effects:
 
For every 2 Drunkenness you gain +1 CON (only to determine stunning) and +2 STUN.  Alcohol is an anaesthetic.
 
In addition alcohol often makes people more sociable.  The GM may allow a bonus to social rolls of +2 in an appropriate situation: a bit of alcohol can make you less awkward and better at conversation or charm, or any social skill – if it is acceptable for you to be drinking in that situation.

[Sean Waters]

You can also model drunkenness as a cumulative Mind Control with an activation roll and single command "Do/say something stupid and then go to sleep".

 

Believe me, I know.

[mhd]

You can also model drunkenness as a cumulative Mind Control with an activation roll and single command "Do/say something stupid and then go to sleep".

It does increase your PD, though.

[WistfulD]

I appreciate this is far too rule heavy for many situations, but it is presented as a modelling system for intoxication that covers most bases and shows what you can do with the skill system if you want to.  Note the levels of intoxication are not entirely arbitrary but based on actual measurements of alcohol units used to determine whether you are too drunk to drive on British Roads.

You've definitely got the basic how many to start being impaired part and the how quickly alcohol is metabolized, subject only to caveat that we are using con to replace a much more complex measure including body mass, how much ADH is in ones bloodstream, etc. Mapping the effects of enebriation is a little more subjective, and I would build my own system to have a little more focus on actual cognitive and coordination issues on top of poor decision making and social graces.  

 

The only thing I'd really add is that throwing up doesn't decrease your drunkenness (yes, you could technically have consumed a drink and yet to have had it cross your stomach lining, but this would be one unit at most).

[pinecone]

It does increase your PD, though.

I disagree, though it might add DR, stun only, SE: Hey hold my beer! Unluck linked to stupid stunt..

[Sean Waters]

I would say it adds STUN and CON (only to avoid stunning), but that is debatable.  

 

As to the subjective effects of alcohol, I agree, but that is why I suggested that alcohol would have an amplifying effect on your complications, you could build additional 'alcohol defences' for the character and that the effects were controlled, at least in part, by a dice roll: the effects will not always be the same even for the same subject, and could be considerably different for different subjects.

 

I've actually got a spreadsheet that accounts for height, weight and gender, but you can't attach excel documents to posts on this forum, apparently.  If anyone knows how I can, I would be happy to post it.

[bigbywolfe]

I like that Sean.  Probably too detailed for me to use in most games, but I do like it.  
At what point in your system would you incur the CV penalty outlined in the rules?  Or would you just ignore them an count on the penalties from your system?

[mhd]

I disagree, though it might add DR, stun only

Okay, instead of PD maybe a Breakfall bonus. I thought that had been scientifically proven

[Sean Waters]

I like that Sean.  Probably too detailed for me to use in most games, but I do like it.  

At what point in your system would you incur the CV penalty outlined in the rules?  Or would you just ignore them an count on the penalties from your system?

 

Generally I would apply the Intoxication modifier as a CV penalty for both OCV (you are less accurate) and DCV (you are not so good at predicting what is about to hit you) BUT it would be situational, at least to an extent: if someone is really angry the I might not impose the OCV penalty, is someone is really mellow I might not impose the DCV penalty, but it would be based on how the drunkenness was roleplayed.  That means that two people of equal drunkenness have the same chance to hit or miss as two people of equal sobriety, although the drunken ones would be slightly harder to put down (assuming +1 Intoxication  = +1 PD, or somesuch).

 

This accords with my experience of people who are drunk, at least from what I can remember

 

The problem with modelling 'drunk' is that, again this is subjective, I get better at playing pool when I've had a few.  Hmm.  Maybe I just get worse at pool more slowly than those I'm drinking with...

[Sean Waters]

You've definitely got the basic how many to start being impaired part and the how quickly alcohol is metabolized, subject only to caveat that we are using con to replace a much more complex measure including body mass, how much ADH is in ones bloodstream, etc. Mapping the effects of enebriation is a little more subjective, and I would build my own system to have a little more focus on actual cognitive and coordination issues on top of poor decision making and social graces.  

 

The only thing I'd really add is that throwing up doesn't decrease your drunkenness (yes, you could technically have consumed a drink and yet to have had it cross your stomach lining, but this would be one unit at most).

 

Absolutely: I've taken a perception v reality view in suggesting that throwing up clears alcohol out of you: it does not (or not much), although it could easily make you more perceptive of the moment, and so less apparently drunk.

 

Whilst medical programmes on TV insist on defibrillators being used to restart hearts, I don't feel too bad about a little artistic licence

[Sean Waters]

Okay, instead of PD maybe a Breakfall bonus. I thought that had been scientifically proven

 

That works for me.

[Sean Waters]

Also, what is wrong with these people?

 

[WistfulD]

I like that Sean.  Probably too detailed for me to use in most games, but I do like it.  

At what point in your system would you incur the CV penalty outlined in the rules?  Or would you just ignore them an count on the penalties from your system?

 

GURPS 3E had a rigorous set of rules for alcohol consumption in their players guide (a late edition colation of optional rules and over-complexity) which could be considered diffinitive (for their own rule set), but too detailed to ever use.

 

Here in Heroes, we at least have precidence that alcohol is just another power that can be used on/at/by characters.