Horns by Joe Hill

[arch2ngel]

I'm trying to mimic the effect of the horns in Joe Hill's book "Horns." Specifically, the horns are visible, but treated as common, everyday item. People ignore they are there, until they are pointed out to someone, at which point they acknowledge their existence, but try to change the subject as quickly as possible. Their minds don't want to acknowledge the horns...

 

So I was thinking of having a character with this ability. He could activate it, change into (or out of) his hero uniform, and no one would pay him any mind. Once he dropped the power, though, everyone would suddenly "realize" that they knew his secret identity's face. If he did anything in front of a camera, anyone watching the camera would ignore him while his power was active, but anyone looking at old footage would immediately be able to recognize his actions and respond accordingly.

 

So...how do I make that? I started with invisibility, but it would work against EVERY sense. Maybe it just needs to be that expensive? (It is pretty potent...) I was going to add Only When Not Attacking, but how to simulate the after effect (not being invisible retroactively)? Or is there a better starting point than invisibility?

[Ndreare]

This sounds to me like a mind control with area of effect, cumulative, personal immunity and perhaps dismissal.

People want to forget it, until...

[massey]

From what you've described, it doesn't have to be built with points.  It doesn't do anything.  You just have horns, but you haven't taken the disadvantage for a Distinctive Feature.  This doesn't give you anything that a normal person doesn't get for free.  So you shouldn't have to pay any points for it.  You're just changing the genre of the game somewhat by having them.

 

Think about it like this -- the Hero System doesn't limit itself to any one type of game.  You can play a fantasy game, a sci-fi game, a superhero game, etc.  A guy with horns might be perfectly normal and acceptable in a fantasy game, or a Star Trek game.  Nobody comments about Worf's head ridges or Spock's ears.  Those characters don't pay points for that.  It's just considered normal in their world.  You're really just talking about a variation on that same concept.  In this particular game, for whatever reason, the horns just aren't an issue for him.  You're just playing with the genre conventions, that's it.

 

In the Hero System, by default, characters have a "normal" appearance.  Nobody has to pay points to not be a freak.  You get it automatically.  You get more points if you take a Disadvantage/Complication that makes you look strange, or odd.  Therefore, if you didn't take the Disadvantage, you don't suffer the ill effects.  Sometimes a GM might require a character to take a Disadvantage because of the genre of the game they're in -- a guy with a 40 Str in a post-apocalyptic mutant game might be required to be 8 feet tall, bald, with giant muscles and radiation burns.  But those are simply campaign requirements designed to evoke a certain feel, so that players can get into the mood of the game.  It isn't required by the normal game rules.  This is the sort of thing you talk about with your GM.  I've never even heard of this book, but it sounds like some mystical effect is preventing people from noticing anything unusual -- it reminds me of White Wolf horror games, where people can see the supernatural and they just completely block it out.  Tell your GM you would like to have something like that be a part of the campaign world.  And remember that the GM may not want something like that in his game.

 

But game mechanics-wise, it's easy as can be.  You just don't take the disadvantage.

 

Edit:  Now, if you want the horns to come up as part of the story, and be something people investigate, something they will eventually notice, then you just buy the disadvantage that way.  Distinctive Feature: Weird horns people usually don't notice for some reason, even though they're right there.  5 point disadvantage.  Or however often you want it to come up.

[Ndreare]

^^^^

A much better answer than mine.

[arch2ngel]

I apologize for the confusion - Ndreare was stating along the lines of what I'm looking for. I was thinking of the horns the character in Horns had, but I wanted it to apply to the entirety of my character, so long as the power was active (it would've been limited to the horns, but persistent in the book - for my character, it would be the whole character and require END to keep it up).

 

For example, if an NPC was going into a restricted area of a secret facility, my character, while using his power, could grab the door before it closed and walk in behind him, and no one around would care. If I stopped one of them and said, "I'm not allowed in here, right?" They'd get a bit confused, say "no, you're really not," but not try to escort me out - in fact, they'd try to go right back to ignoring my character. If I pressed the issue, they'd get annoyed and say something like, "we've been over this - you're not allowed in here. Now, will you leave me alone? I don't have time to keep explaining this to you!" On the other hand, when I dropped the power or attacked someone, everyone would suddenly be clear about the problem, and quickly report a security breach. That's what I'm looking to be able to do. It gives the advantage over Invisibility that I can interact with people while using the power (though the longr the interaction, the more irate they'll become), but the disadvantage that, retroactively, nothing I did was hidden...

[massey]

OK. That's weird.

 

You're going to spend way more points on this than you need to. That is a danger anytime you try to duplicate an incredibly specific power. It sounds like a big area of affect mind control is the most direct way to duplicate this. The problem is, in order to get enough dice to get the effect you want, you will spend more points than if you were to just buy invisibility versus all sense groups.

 

One big problem with that, is that if you run into someone who has a high ego, or a lot of mental defense, or if you just roll poorly, then your power doesn't work.

 

Also, you are literally paying more points so that your character can suffer from the limitations he had in the book.

 

The best way I can think of to make this function how you want it, without spending way more points than you need, would be this:

 

Invisibility vs sight and hearing

Custom limitation: visible after-the-fact -1/4

 

6d6 Telepathy

Only to speak and read surface thoughts -1/2

Custom limitation: Visible after-the-fact

 

You basically walk around invisible when the power is working. You communicate with someone using the telepathy. The Power that is used means that they are not actually speaking out loud when you communicate with them. The limitation on all of it means that after you turn it off, you retroactively become visible to everyone who is nearby.

[Ndreare]

I would build as follows. The result would allow them to interact for only a single action before most people would start ignoring you again. This does not include the lock out or any accounting for AP limits.

 

37

Horns: Mind Control 3d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Mental Defence; +0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2); Only to Forget Me Now (-1)

 

0

 

 

 

The way this is built if you activate and keep stacking the power for three phases before taking action you will have achieved an Ego+30 effect (Ego considered 0 because of Attack versus alternate defense only Mental defense counts). That means you could go so far as slapping someone and their aggravation would fades super-fast.

[Tasha]

Use the Invisibility (completely natural for PC to be there, PC not noticed). not vs photography, not vs Xdef Mental Def

[arch2ngel]

Thanks, guys! I greatly appreciate the insight and advice!

 

Massey: it could easily get too expensive, normally. In this case, I was building it into a Multipower, so as long as I can keep the Active Points below 90, it shouldn't cost all that much.

 

Ndreade: I kept skipping over Mind Control, due to the need for that Ego +30 roll. I hadn't considered Cumulative! (Nor Megascale, for that matter - so long as he activates the power far enough out, it'll already be working on everyone by the time he gets there!)

 

Thanks again for everyone's help - I love seeing what a new (to me) system can do, and this was one of the harder concepts I've ever tried to make work.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would build as follows. The result would allow them to interact for only a single action before most people would start ignoring you again. This does not include the lock out or any accounting for AP limits.

 

37

Horns: Mind Control 3d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Mental Defence; +0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2); Only to Forget Me Now (-1)

 

 

The way this is built if you activate and keep stacking the power for three phases before taking action you will have achieved an Ego+30 effect (Ego considered 0 because of Attack versus alternate defense only Mental defense counts). That means you could go so far as slapping someone and their aggravation would fades super-fast.

A few nitpicks. First, targets hit by mental powers are aware of the attack. Once it's effective the "Forget" will kick in, but until then everyone within 10,000 km or so knows they are the victim of a mental attack, and that recurs when the power drops.

 

Second, the Cumulative aspect caps out at 18 - you need to add doublings for it to go beyond that cap, so it's going to be at least +1 (4x 18 limit = 72). If course, you could reduce the base power to 1d6 (and add more doublings on Cumulative) so it will take longer to become effective, but be cheaper. Of course, 6 points of mental defense (versus 18 for the build as drafted) makes a target immune. Armor Piercing can help out on that score, if desired.

 

AoE Constant powers need a Mobile advantage or they are fixed in place after activation. On the other hand, this one could also have No Range, and be Mobile with the character, which would net to higher AP and lower real cost. As it is not Persistent, being Stunned will shut it down, and it will need to be turned on again. It's pretty common for 0 END Constant powers to require some reasonably obvious shutdown mechanism as well. If the character needs to activate the power, Costs END to Activate could be considered.

 

I'm unclear what AVAD is supposed to mean. Mind control works against Ego Defense by default. All or Nothing means the ability fails entirely against anyone with Mental Defense.

 

I wonder if Change Environment might work better. Imposing an EGO roll, with penalties, to notice the character seems reasonable. A No Range CE can apply penalties to others' PER rolls to see the character, so the same could reasonably apply to this power. Otherwise, it will need to be AoE. 90 AP will permit a pretty hefty penalty on an EGO roll. Let's assume it has to be AoE...

 

-12 Ego Roll Penalty to care about the character, AoE 4" Radius, Mobile (+3/4), Megascale (4 km; can't alter +3/4), Constant (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2) is 90 AP. No Range will reduce the real points, but it sounds like 90 AP for the multipower is really the key.

[Ndreare]

Good catches Hough, I don’t like the Change Environment it is too costly for what is needed, but perhaps if the CE where reduced to -6 to Ego Rolls.

 

With this build (another Mind Control) the character would activate his power for a while ahead of time again (however long it takes him to have 12 phases). Once he felt the power settle in, he would continue using it. As he goes about his business. As soon as he stops using his power people are able to perceive him again. It is not persistent by design because he said he wants the power to stop when he stops using it, so people would get Ego break out rolls as soon as they had a reason.

 

 

 

 

 

Doubling: I did forget the doublings, good catch.

 

AVAD: I wanted to make sure characters with Mental Defense would be immune to the power (because of the way I envisioned it, not because of what the poster said, I made it penetrating on this version).

 

Mobile: No real need for mobile at 40,000 kilometers it covers the entire planet. But I did forget to put personal immunity on it, it would suck if he forgot himself.

 

 

 

29 points Horns: Mind Control 1d6, Dismissable, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Penetrating (x2; +1), Cumulative (48 points; +1 1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2); Only to Achieve One Effect (Forget Me with Target Does not Remember; -1), No Range (-1/2) 72 active points

 

 

 

 

 

Personally one of my favorite things about Hero is designing these powers and seeing how they balance out. This power would be a super huge Stop sign in 90% oif games and as a GM, I would allow it if the character included Lockout and Canceled by Combat.

[Ndreare]

Perhaps bump the cumulative up by another doubling, but I do not know the active point limit of the original posters game.

[IndianaJoe3]

Use the Invisibility (completely natural for PC to be there, PC not noticed). not vs photography, not vs Xdef Mental Def

 

I can't believe that nobody has suggested, "Invisibility, Invisible Power Effects" yet.

[Mister E]

"Ms. or Mr. Nobody": +10/+10d6 Striking Appearance ("unobtrusive" to all characters)(30 active pts); Costs END (every Phase of use; -1/2). 20 character pts.

 

This paradoxical power allows a character to look extraordinarily normal to absolutely everybody by paying 3 END per Phase.

 

A subtle aura of forgetfulness stops the character from attracting bothersome attention.

 

 

"I am not the superhero you are looking for."

 

[edit]: this thread reminds me of an essay on the invisibility of privilege: http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

[Hugh Neilson]

Good catches Hough, I don’t like the Change Environment it is too costly for what is needed, but perhaps if the CE where reduced to -6 to Ego Rolls.

-12 was simply the maximum which would fit the OP's stated 90 AP cap to fit this within a Multipower. For the same reason, I did not look too hard at limitations, since they aren't all that relevant when AP is the main, if not only, constraint.

 

For CE, I think the "personal effect only" approach, rather than the AoE Megascale approach is more appropriate (it could be used with PER rolls as well, but those go sense by sense). That would either make it less AP, or allow a much greater EGO roll penalty. I went with the more expensive build to see how high the EGO roll penalty could be at that level.

 

With this build (another Mind Control) the character would activate his power for a while ahead of time again (however long it takes him to have 12 phases). Once he felt the power settle in, he would continue using it. As he goes about his business. As soon as he stops using his power people are able to perceive him again. It is not persistent by design because he said he wants the power to stop when he stops using it, so people would get Ego break out rolls as soon as they had a reason.

If going the Mind Control route, it's important to remember that every character knows he is being attacked while the power is building. That does not mesh well with the intended subtlety of this power. The out for that is IPE for the period in which it builds up. Oh, and it also needs Telepathic Command unless he wants to tell people to forget him (and not have it work on those who can't hear or understand him). The gradual buildup is reminiscent of my old buddy Margarita Man (at http://www.herogames...an?do=findComment&comment=2385838) although the rest of the build is quite different as they serve different purposes.

 

Agreed on the Persistent, except that this means a considerable (at least in combat time) period before it works again, during which time all the targets **know** a mental attack is being made on them.

 

Mobile: No real need for mobile at 40,000 kilometers it covers the entire planet. But I did forget to put personal immunity on it, it would suck if he forgot himself.

As always, that depends on the campaign, but my look to Mobile is based more on the expectation the ability emanates from the character, and does not sit in a spot than any mechanical or point efficiency consideration.

 

29 points Horns: Mind Control 1d6, Dismissable, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Mental Group; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Penetrating (x2; +1), Cumulative (48 points; +1 1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2); Only to Achieve One Effect (Forget Me with Target Does not Remember; -1), No Range (-1/2) 72 active points

At that level of Cumulative, high EGO folk will remain immune, although a -6 EGO roll still gives an 18+ EGO target a shot as well. Adding Target does not Remember, however, means you need 48 points of effect to get an 8 EGO target, so anyone with a 9+ EGO won't forget him. That seems way too low. Still, 1 more Cumulative (96 max), Telepathic and IPE can easily be added with a 5 point base cost.

 

Perhaps more problematic, everyone gets breakout rolls. These will be normal EGO rolls (since we did not try to impose a penalty - and at best 1d6 would get 5 above what we needed, then lock in the effect). So every target gets a breakout roll when the effect accumulates, plus another one at the end of the first turn, with better than 50% succeeding. The character now is remembered until that 1d6 per phase builds back up again.

 

That Change Environment platform is looking better and better...

 

Personally one of my favorite things about Hero is designing these powers and seeing how they balance out. This power would be a super huge Stop sign in 90% oif games and as a GM, I would allow it if the character included Lockout and Canceled by Combat.

Definitely a stop sign. As the OP plans it as an MP slot, it will shut off when he moves the points, which effectively adds both Lockout and Canceled by Combat. Well, to the CE version - the Mind Control version would still be running on breakout rolls after he shifts the points. In a Supers game, I'd allow a CE version, which he could likely buy up to a level it would normally be "absolute effect".

[Ndreare]

I missed that he had 90 AP.

I your build would work better. I did not worry about breakout because it is a 0 endurance and constant power. So he starts it and just keeps stacking it on top of the previous effect. But you are definitely right about it not being subtle, that was what I was trying to get out of IPE but I don't think it is rules legal.

[arch2ngel]

Change Environment doesn't seem right, especially given that the description in the book says it's not allowed to cause effects that can be simulated by other powers - and there's enough discussion about Mind Control and Invisibility that it really seems like that's exactly what we'd be doing here. Having said that, it really was an elegantly written concept.

 

Mind Control FEELS like it should work, and matches the tone of the power perfectly, except for the beforehand "if it doesn't work (yet), then everyone knows about it" clause. I'd be fine with those who could see him during that phase being able to know about it, but everyone in the megascale's radius? That's a LOT of people who would be panicking before the power took effect and after it was shut down...all for an "ignore me" command. Anyone who never saw him shouldn't be aware that anything happened.

 

That leads me back to Invisibility. Would Indianajoe3's suggestion about Invisibility with Invisible Power Effect (or maybe with a Limitation that it only works as long as the power is active) work? How much does it cost to be invisible to EVERY possible sense?

[massey]

Invisible with invisible power effects shouldn't actually do anything. There's a bit of history with people buying IPE on powers that already invisible and using that to represent an unusual effect. People have bought resistant defenses with IPEand defined it as "it looks like he got shot, he's bleeding and everything, but he didn't actually take damage". I'm of the opinion that this doesn't actually work the way they think it works.

 

Invisibility has IPE by default. It isn't necessary to buy it, though it might work as a good shorthand method of getting what you want. You basically say "I'm not sure exactly how I want this to work, so this is close enough".

[Mister E]

That & recall Desolid is Invisibility to Touch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Change Environment doesn't seem right, especially given that the description in the book says it's not allowed to cause effects that can be simulated by other powers - and there's enough discussion about Mind Control and Invisibility that it really seems like that's exactly what we'd be doing here. Having said that, it really was an elegantly written concept.

Yet thick fog seems a lot like Darkness, and "For example, a character might have a “Stealth Suit” that imposes a -4 Sight PER Roll penalty on attempts to see him, or a plane might be built with radar-absorbing materials that impose a -8 PER Roll penalty to perceive it with Radar." seem a lot like variants on invisibility, don't they?

 

The Mind Control build has a lot of issues, largely highlighted above.

 

Maybe the problem is that we are trying to build a CE effect using other powers, not that we are using CE for something other powers simulate better.

 

Mind Control FEELS like it should work, and matches the tone of the power perfectly, except for the beforehand "if it doesn't work (yet), then everyone knows about it" clause. I'd be fine with those who could see him during that phase being able to know about it, but everyone in the megascale's radius? That's a LOT of people who would be panicking before the power took effect and after it was shut down...all for an "ignore me" command. Anyone who never saw him shouldn't be aware that anything happened.

Mind Control feels to me like forcing a target to do my bidding, not simply going unnoticed. Funny...all the problems you note seem to disappear if we use CE instead. Perhaps that should tell us something?

 

 

That leads me back to Invisibility. Would Indianajoe3's suggestion about Invisibility with Invisible Power Effect (or maybe with a Limitation that it only works as long as the power is active) work? How much does it cost to be invisible to EVERY possible sense?

But he's not invisible - he can perceive and be perceived. Again, we're trying to shoehorn this into Invisibility.

[sinanju]

I apologize for the confusion - Ndreare was stating along the lines of what I'm looking for. I was thinking of the horns the character in Horns had, but I wanted it to apply to the entirety of my character, so long as the power was active (it would've been limited to the horns, but persistent in the book - for my character, it would be the whole character and require END to keep it up).

 

For example, if an NPC was going into a restricted area of a secret facility, my character, while using his power, could grab the door before it closed and walk in behind him, and no one around would care. If I stopped one of them and said, "I'm not allowed in here, right?" They'd get a bit confused, say "no, you're really not," but not try to escort me out - in fact, they'd try to go right back to ignoring my character. If I pressed the issue, they'd get annoyed and say something like, "we've been over this - you're not allowed in here. Now, will you leave me alone? I don't have time to keep explaining this to you!" On the other hand, when I dropped the power or attacked someone, everyone would suddenly be clear about the problem, and quickly report a security breach. That's what I'm looking to be able to do. It gives the advantage over Invisibility that I can interact with people while using the power (though the longr the interaction, the more irate they'll become), but the disadvantage that, retroactively, nothing I did was hidden...

 

I designed a character whose power was being a lucid dreamer. The whole world is a communal hallucination or dream, and she's the only one (or one of the very few) who recognize that fact--and as a result, like a lucid dreamer, she can change that dream/reality to suit herself. One of her powers is an ability to seamlessly join a group of people who would normally react to her presence--but that take her presence for granted. They ignore it. So she can walk into any secure area, or sit in on a meeting of her enemies and listen to them make plans...and they'll see her (she's not invisible), and they'll even know it's her--but her presence will just seem normal and unremarkable until and unless she draws attention to it.

 

I used Shapeshift for this. I think that's all you need. The effect is that you have horns--but people react as if you didn't (or rather, they see them, they just don't notice or care).

[IndianaJoe3]

Invisible with invisible power effects shouldn't actually do anything. There's a bit of history with people buying IPE on powers that already invisible and using that to represent an unusual effect. People have bought resistant defenses with IPEand defined it as "it looks like he got shot, he's bleeding and everything, but he didn't actually take damage". I'm of the opinion that this doesn't actually work the way they think it works.

 

Invisibility has IPE by default. It isn't necessary to buy it, though it might work as a good shorthand method of getting what you want. You basically say "I'm not sure exactly how I want this to work, so this is close enough".

 

Yeah, Invisibility with IPE might be overthinking things (which is why I included the smiley).The character is seen but not noticed, which would normally amount work out to the same thing. Are there situations where they would not be equivalent?