Change Environment to Expose Invisibility?

[Greywind]

Worked in Hollow Man.

[Grailknight]

You cannot assume that the SFX  interaction of two powers will allow the results you desire.

 

Change Environment: Dust storm/torrential rain might reveal  an Invisibility: Light refraction but do nothing for Mental Images. Other powers can also interfere. Damage Negation/Reduction defined as partial Desolidification would allow the invisible character to cruise through dust/rain.

 

In short, the SFX of  X's powers cannot impose limitations on  Y unless Y purchased their powers a certain way that allows the interaction. (Transform is a mechanic not a SFX.)

 

What you should to do is buy a Dispel/Drain/Supress AoE or (gasp) an Enhanced Sense with the SFX of the Change Environment. You can define it in such a way that some SFX of Invisibility are not detected but that is a limitation X imposes on their own power not Y's.

[massey]

Let me put it another way.  For consistent results, you need Enhanced Sense: Detect Invisibility, or Dispel Invisibility.  In a pinch, though, creative use of other powers and/or the environment can sometimes nullify an enemy's powers.

[Hyper-Man]

I understand and agree with the idea that HERO can appear too complex (especially to NEW players) because of issues like this.  This is why I have repeatedly stated that this is a GM decision.

 

However, I also think this shows a flaw in the current rules for Invisibility.  I don't have the power description in front of me at the moment but if memory serves it can be purchased to near Absolute Effect levels of effectiveness (works vs ALL Sense Groups except Unusual & No Fringe).  Perhaps it needs to require a defined method of defeat above and beyond just having a sense not affected by the Invisibility (like AVAD/NND does).  Then issues like the original topic of this thread would already be dealt with at power creation.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Let me put it another way.  For consistent results, you need Enhanced Sense: Detect Invisibility, or Dispel Invisibility.  In a pinch, though, creative use of other powers and/or the environment can sometimes nullify an enemy's powers.

 

Technically Detect Invisibility would ONLY be valid if it uses a Sense Group NOT currently affected by the Invisibility Power.

[Ninja-Bear]

Surrealone what is the special effect of your change enviroment by the way?

[Ninja-Bear]

You cannot assume that the SFX interaction of two powers will allow the results you desire.

 

Change Environment: Dust storm/torrential rain might reveal an Invisibility: Light refraction but do nothing for Mental Images. Other powers can also interfere. Damage Negation/Reduction defined as partial Desolidification would allow the invisible character to cruise through dust/rain.

 

In short, the SFX of X's powers cannot impose limitations on Y unless Y purchased their powers a certain way that allows the interaction. (Transform is a mechanic not a SFX.)

 

What you should to do is buy a Dispel/Drain/Supress AoE or (gasp) an Enhanced Sense with the SFX of the Change Environment. You can define it in such a way that some SFX of Invisibility are not detected but that is a limitation X imposes on their own power not Y's.

He specificly asked whether change enviroment can affect invisibilty. Which I say it can based on special effects. No more no less.

[Ninja-Bear]

I understand and agree with the idea that HERO can appear too complex (especially to NEW players) because of issues like this. This is why I have repeatedly stated that this is a GM decision.

 

However, I also think this shows a flaw in the current rules for Invisibility. I don't have the power description in front of me at the moment but if memory serves it can be purchased to near Absolute Effect levels of effectiveness (works vs ALL Sense Groups except Unusual & No Fringe). Perhaps it needs to require a defined method of defeat above and beyond just having a sense not affected by the Invisibility (like AVAD/NND does). Then issues like the original topic of this thread would already be dealt with at power creation.

 

HM

No I think this shows how people can make the game more complex than it already is. I know I use to be so much by the book it hurts but now I understand why Steve Long repeated often in fifth revised dramatic sense and common sense with each power.

[Grailknight]

He specificly asked whether change enviroment can affect invisibilty. Which I say it can based on special effects. No more no less.

 

And the answer I gave him was: Maybe. Because some SFX for Change Environment will interact with differing SFX for Invisibility in different ways. The SFX , he gives for his VPP in a later post would reveal Light based Invisibility but be ineffective against Mental based Invisibility. 

[Surrealone]

Surrealone what is the special effect of your change enviroment by the way?

 

As previously noted, I'm running a low (base) point VPP that's not quite cosmic.  The VPP powers are only slightly limited in special effects -- specifically to things involving forces and energy states.  Thus, I have control over forces/energy at all levels (i.e. particle, wave, quantum, weak force, strong force, etc.).  This means I can redirect energy, convert energy to mass or even one type of mass to another (i.e. build bonds), convert mass to energy or other types of mass (i.e. break bonds), change the vector of a force, etc.

 

In this case, the opponent in question has invisibility to sight with a fringe where light is bent in Predator-like fashion.  Change environment with the above special effects could be used a number of ways on this.  Some examples include: vectoring light waves within the AE of CE to make the fringe more apparent; ionizing the area to cause it to contain more particulate matter (like dust) that obviates the fringe; you get the idea.

 

I intend to discuss with the GM the concept of the CE's negatives only offsetting bonuses gained by the opponent's invisibility -- that way CE sticks to its mechanics of applying negative modifiers.  I also feel visibility of the fringe and PER rolls at more than 1" distance are appropriate as long as the opponent is within the AE of the CE.

 

Thoughts?

[Ninja-Bear]

As previously noted, I'm running a low (base) point VPP that's not quite cosmic. The VPP powers are only slightly limited in special effects -- specifically to things involving forces and energy states. Thus, I have control over forces/energy at all levels (i.e. particle, wave, quantum, weak force, strong force, etc.). This means I can redirect energy, convert energy to mass or even one type of mass to another (i.e. build bonds), convert mass to energy or other types of mass (i.e. break bonds), change the vector of a force, etc.

 

In this case, the opponent in question has invisibility to sight with a fringe where light is bent in Predator-like fashion. Change environment with the above special effects could be used a number of ways on this. Some examples include: vectoring light waves within the AE of CE to make the fringe more apparent; ionizing the area to cause it to contain more particulate matter (like dust) that obviates the fringe; you get the idea.

 

I intend to discuss with the GM the concept of the CE's negatives only offsetting bonuses gained by the opponent's invisibility -- that way CE sticks to its mechanics of applying negative modifiers. I also feel visibility of the fringe and PER rolls at more than 1" distance are appropriate as long as the opponent is within the AE of the CE.

 

Thoughts?

Sounds reasonable.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Worked in Hollow Man.

This is the crux of the problem. People are forgetting one of the primary meta--rules of Hero: if something makes common and/or dramatic sense, allow it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You cannot assume that the SFX interaction of two powers will allow the results you desire.

 

Change Environment: Dust storm/torrential rain might reveal an Invisibility: Light refraction but do nothing for Mental Images. Other powers can also interfere. Damage Negation/Reduction defined as partial Desolidification would allow the invisible character to cruise through dust/rain.

 

In short, the SFX of X's powers cannot impose limitations on Y unless Y purchased their powers a certain way that allows the interaction. (Transform is a mechanic not a SFX.)

 

What you should to do is buy a Dispel/Drain/Supress AoE or (gasp) an Enhanced Sense with the SFX of the Change Environment. You can define it in such a way that some SFX of Invisibility are not detected but that is a limitation X imposes on their own power not Y's.

Or an enhanced sense linked to Change Environment.

[Tech]

This is the crux of the problem. People are forgetting one of the primary meta--rules of Hero: if something makes common and/or dramatic sense, allow it.

 

Agreed. If a power vs power becomes a problem, the GM makes a decision. Understanding how a power should/shouldn't work is fine, even necessary but when there's confusion (particularly during a game), come to a consensus or have the GM make a quick ruling and discuss it later.

[Tech]

I'll also add: if the later consensus/ruling by the GM contradicts what happened during the game, just say it was one of those special power events where it can't be repeated.

[薔薇語]

I stopped reading a bit ago when some of the arguments kept going on so if I am repeating anyone, I am sorry.

 

The player has a CE with variable advantages / special effects, etc so that he can actually rework the power as needed.

 

The Target is visually invisible to the character by some means (likely due to the Invis power). The target also seems to have flight or clinging, etc, as they are not leaving visible footprints or setting off some kind of floor traps (I assume given the description).

 

The Goal is to better track and perhaps target the unseen target using what the Player has at their disposal.

 

I highly encourage you to "think around" the problem even more. If "throw flour" on the target hasn't had an effect then they might be like the Invisible Woman and essentially immune to such trivial counters. How else can you make the target easier to track? Well lets think of the other senses:

 

Taste / Smell: Perhaps you could could create a perfume that the target would have to pass through. This would give them negatives to their stealth checks (CE) or others bonuses to their PER checks (Images).

 

Touch: It is probably fair to assume that there is still a physical form interacting with the world. Thus you could find a way to block the target's path. Maybe a sheet of thin plastic like substance that can be lit up or colored automatically when moved through (A weak Entangle plus Images)

 

Hearing: If the target is still breathing and is nominally human, perhaps creating a black pepper bomb would work. While it won't make the target visible, it could cause them to cough up a storm and thus make them extra easy to target with your hearing. This could be a CON check made with CE (No need to Breathe, etc. being a free pass). Again, it won't stop the character or make them visible, just make them easier to find with one's hearing.

 

Touch 2.0: If they are actually flying through an area, perhaps just limiting their movement would be good enough. God's Mighty Presence witch forces individuals to subjugate themeselves before God could force the target to the ground. This would be a CE with a minus to all movement, especially flying since Flying in the face of God is a big no-no. Or it could be done with a might TK punch down through the CE. I like the former option more. This doesn't make the target visible but would make movement through an area much harder. Perhaps limiting him to the ground where he could be tracked better.

 

Then there are all the other alternate versions that ignore trying to make the target 'more perceivable'. Create a cube around the area of the target with (power name escaping me) and slowly contract them until you get resistance. That will narrow down where the target it.

 

Goo Gun Entangles over whole areas. Doesn't make them visible but might stop them anyway.

 

Minor Transform to create lush plant growth in an area. The target would have to literally pass through the room size grass. And as long as it has a physical form - even if invisible - it must interact with the grass.

 

Create Fake Rooms and areas where you can trap the target with Transform and CE.

 

If you can, just make other senses targeting or create new senses (Infrared vision, for example).

 

And of course at some point just ask the GM for advice. Maybe it is just a "plot power" and nothing you do is going to reveal the target because the GM doesn't want the target revealed. I once roleplayed against such a character - Was my cousin who even had the ability to hide from my father's future sense apparently.

 

Foreign Orchid.