General guidance on fantasy campaign balance - request

[Beowulf]

Hi everyone, I have gone through the boards and looked through FRED trying to come up with a good magic system and have good general game balance. I hope I can outline it here and get some feedback.

 

- Standard 75pt + 25 points of disadvantages, no more than 20 points for a single disadvantage.

- NCM is in effect, the maxima can be exceeded by no more than five, and only for a single defining characteristic for new characters. Further increases will be dictated by game circumstance.

- Speed cannot be purchased by new characters.

- Maximum CV is 12 typical range is 4 - 6

- Typical DC is will be 3 to 8, max DC is 12

- Typical armor will be 3 to 6 rPD

- Combat luck can be bought only once

- Powers cannot be used to simulate skills to start

 

Magic system:

- Mana battery required, full night sleep required to recharge it. it will be possible to find external independent focus batteries in game.

- Magic is a VPP, requires a skill roll, side effects (ego blast on failure), incantations, full phase to cast. limited to 40 active points to start. Can only change the VPP by studying a new spell from a book or scroll.

 

What am I missing? Any big mistakes or imbalances?

[Steve]

At the indicated point level, having magic will be a big drain on available points, so you might not have any PC spellcasters. You might consider a different way to do magic to keep the point expenditure on it low, unless you want to limit magic a lot.

 

I didn't see any mention of martial arts. Allowed?

 

Does the CV ceiling also apply to combat maneuvers? Can Dodge only get up to 12 DCV or can it exceed it?

 

What about Talents or limited Powers?

[Beowulf]

Good points. Martial arts would be permitted, and manuvers would let the person exceed the CV or DC limit.

 

I am considering allowing overall skill levels to break that limit as well.

 

Can't think of any talents I am worried about at the moment.

 

Limited powers will be on a case by case  basis. The player will either find an existing spell, which is going to be one I already have approved, or we will agree on the design, so conditionally I will say that any of the 'risky' powers would be approved.

 

Character classes will be based on the classics, with standard such as limited life support for elves, low light vision for dwarves, and adjusted NCM for each race accordingly.

 

Also thinking I should increase the starting points to 100 base + 50 disads

[Steve]

Increasing the starting points is not necessarily needed, depending on the campaign feel you are going for. Rookie heroes would probably be fine at a total of 75+25 points. At that level, goblins are a threat and orcs are a big threat.

 

It all depends on what you want the power level to feel like.

[L. Marcus]

Do you want the characters to pay for the magic VPP, or is it kind of a meta-VPP -- the rules apply, but the size of the Pool is based on, say, Magic Skill or INT/EGO/PRE. A new Talent could be a way to have Magic cost something without being ruinous -- your 40 point Pool would cost 60 points for the character, leaving only 40 for characteristics and skills.

 

Another way could be Skills as Magic -- instead of each spell being bought as-is, buy the separate Power Skill for each one and let the mechanics be cost-free (the Skill Roll may or may not be modified by the size of the Power, whichever feels better).

[Ninja-Bear]

Beowulf I have nothimg against martial arts however be careful about them and skill levels increasing past your cap cause players tend to max out at whatever level you set.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It looks pretty good, but yeah careful with Martial arts for stacking CV and damage, and with that magic system, spells are going to be almost exclusively utility (hard to get decent damage output), so be aware of that from the start if you prefer people to have magic with punch behind it.  The ideal character for this game is a guy with some martial arts, a little boosting magic pool to make their combat better, and some combat skills.

 

Consider that weapons and armor cost only money, while spells cost points, so spellcasters are at a bit of a disadvantage right from the outlet.  For 4 points you can have familiarity with all common weapons in the campaign and then buy anything you want, but the spellcaster has to lay out dozens of points just to light a fire.

 

That's not a bad thing necessarily, if you want a low magic campaign without fireballs, etc.

 

Incidentally 75+25 sounds great to me, I love starting low in campaigns.  Plenty of room for growth, and lots of opportunities for exciting foes that more powerful groups would sneer at, like wolves.

[Beowulf]

One of my concerns was a wizard making the warrior irrelevant, and the pool + mana battery matches the way magic works in the world. I think the solution is to have no cap on the VPP while carefully monitoring the spells available. This lets a late game wizard really feel the power, but I can keep the DC in line with what the warrior types can do by watching which spells become available.

 

This sounds really risky but doable.

 

Martial arts giving that extra edge makes sense to me. The experts who are breaking the CV ceiling are the ones who have put in the rigrious training, and european sword training is as much of an art as something eastern.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would be cautious with letting people break the campaign caps with martial arts.  Then there really aren't caps at all because everyone will have martial arts except the wizard.  Best to keep it all more or less in line, in my experience, and have people distinguish themselves with character concepts, specialities, and role playing.

[Outsider]

"- Speed cannot be purchased by new characters."

 

Expect a lot of DEX 20 characters since it is the only way to get more than SPD 2 without a spell, starting.  Or can people simply not buy full points of SPD?

[Ninja-Bear]

Also I am running a game set at those power levels and I have sent a pack of wolves against the PCs. Good times. However if you use typical fantasy races, they soak up a lot of points just for their abilities. I did look at using multipower for magic users after I started the game because buying each spell at that level is a hugh investment.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh Btw Beowulf I agree with your statement that martial arts can represent in Hero system anything from Dwarven Axe fighting to Karate to Fencing. I however have a brother who lets the word martial arts rhrow him off. He feels that they should have renamed it something else cause martial arts don't belong to fantasy. Oy vey.

 

But also one consideration though about martial arts or really any rule in any game is how familar are you with the rule and how familar are your players? If your players aren't really familar with hero system then I would caution you to not use martial arts at first. Let them become acquainted with just basic combat first. I don't use hit locations just because that added an extra dice roll with new players like my afore mentioned brother. Good luck with your game : )

[Beowulf]

"- Speed cannot be purchased by new characters."

 

Expect a lot of DEX 20 characters since it is the only way to get more than SPD 2 without a spell, starting.  Or can people simply not buy full points of SPD?

My hope was to avoid speed creep. Keep most people at speed 2, let speed 3 and 4 show up much later in the game as the character's powers grew. Doesn't sound like something to legislate. Permitting people to buy up to the next level is a good compromise. That way all the DEX's will be 13 or 17 instead of 20, so there will be a little variaty.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Speed is expensive enough that I've rarely seen anyone use experience to buy a point, but that might just be the group of players I grew up with.

[Markdoc]

Here's my take as someone who's run a lot of low-mid level fantasy

 

- Standard 75pt + 25 points of disadvantages, no more than 20 points for a single disadvantage.

 

 Looks fine

 

 

- NCM is in effect, the maxima can be exceeded by no more than five, and only for a single defining characteristic for new characters. Further increases will be dictated by game circumstance.

 

Bit metagamey for my taste (the party can only have one really strong guy, for example), but I can't see it causing problems

 

-Speed cannot be purchased by new characters.

and

- Powers cannot be used to simulate skills to start

 

This eliminates a lot of concepts from the get-go, and I'm not sure what you gain by it. A player who wants a high-SPD PC, or a power as skill, but who is not allowed to start with one would simply pour all his points into it over the first few sessions. Unless the game is only meant to run for a few sessions, all you gain is them not being able to play the concept they wanted from the beginning.

 

- Maximum CV is 12 typical range is 4 - 6

- Typical DC is will be 3 to 8, max DC is 12

 

Forget typical ranges. If you set the max at 12, every martial character will use that as their starting benchmark. I find that PCs actually start off with lower CVs when I don't set a maximum, because it doesn't give them a "you must be this tall to take this ride" vibe.Really high CVs are rarely if ever a problem anyway, since a PC with an OCV of 10 will hit his target 92% of the time, while someone with an OCV of 14 will hit it 94% of the time

Really high damage, OTOH can be a problem. I'd forget about max DCs, and instead put the "you cannot do more than double the base damage of an HKA by addinfg STR or martial arts damage" optional rule in place

 

- Typical armor will be 3 to 6 rPD

 

No problem here

 

- Combat luck can be bought only once.

 

The problem with combat luck is not stacking with itself, it's stacking with free gear such as armour. Don't permit it. In general, a good rule of thumb is not to permit stacking of powers and free gear at all (see my comments on magic below for more on this)

 

 

Magic system:

- Mana battery required, full night sleep required to recharge it. it will be possible to find external independent focus batteries in game.

- Magic is a VPP, requires a skill roll, side effects (ego blast on failure), incantations, full phase to cast. limited to 40 active points to start. Can only change the VPP by studying a new spell from a book or scroll.

 

This, OTOH, I can see being a giant problem from the very beginning. A 40 point VPP like this would enable a starting wizard to fly, throw up a reduced end 20 PD forcefield that will stop pretty much every mundane weapon, plus an entangle that will be nigh-unbreakable by any character. Or he can fly and turn invisible ... and just get himself a longbow. Heck, he can get himself a two handed sword, pump his STR a bit, throw on his forcefield and just mow down any hapless warriors who get in his way, with his 12 DC killing attack. He can teleport intercontinental distances. The worst and easiest abuses are when you let a mage pick up a free mundane weaponand then use his VPP to enhance it, since that automatically makes his pool "larger". You can easily generate a 70 point attack out of a mundane weapon + a 40 point VPP - and you can even do it without violating the 12 DC rule.

 

In terms of raw damage output, 40 points does not sound like much - until someone throws that first sonic scream spell (1/2d6 RKA, AVAD (vs Flash defence, hearing), does BOD) and starts melting down all his enemies at range, or casts an "arrow storm" spell and turns his 2d6 heavy longbow into a giant area-effect death machine.

 

If you are going to allow a 40 point VPP, I would strongly recommend restricting what spells are available, and thinking carefully about restricting VPPs to certain types of magic, so that you don't get mages who can do everything - unless you want a game where everyone is a mage.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve]

Another way you could approach it would be to allow only one category to go to your campaign limit, but everything else then has to stay in your ranges. So a character may be able to get up to a 12 CV but only a max of 8 DC. That can get a little meta when weapon choice is involved.

 

I also agree with maxing out weapon damage at 2x base damage. Even so, a monk with a quarterstaff and 10 points of martial arts maneuvers can be quite devastating.

 

Will you be using hit locations and bleeding?

[Christopher R Taylor]

In terms of raw damage output, 40 points does not sound like much - until someone throws that first sonic scream spell (1/2d6 RKA, AVAD (vs Flash defence, hearing), does BOD) and starts melting down all his enemies at range, or casts an "arrow storm" spell and turns his 2d6 heavy longbow into a giant area-effect death machine.

I would expect that the damage, defenses, and CV caps would carry through to spells as well as equipment.  And if you turn yourself into a flying howitzer, you won't have points for any defenses.

[Ninja-Bear]

We just sorta house ruled everyone speed three and I keep monsters and such between 2-4 speed mainly 2 for groups like goblins and rarely 4-like the wererat.

[Beowulf]

This, OTOH, I can see being a giant problem from the very beginning. A 40 point VPP like this would enable a starting wizard to ...

 

Thank you for the feedback. Good notes, and good things ot consider.

Regarding the magic comments, I think you may have overlooked the spell mechanic. They have the VPP, but the pool can only reflect known spells. If they have a fly spell in their spellbook, then great. If not they are going to need to do a lot of work.

 

They will start with the ability to choose three spells. Anything else they want to come up with will be the result of game play and fortune. My expectation is that the wizard with the 40pt VPP will pick an offensive, defensive and utility spell to start... or perhaps three smaller utility spells and pick up some martial skills.

[Beowulf]

We just sorta house ruled everyone speed three and I keep monsters and such between 2-4 speed mainly 2 for groups like goblins and rarely 4-like the wererat.

 

Yea, the speed thing really has me thinking if I need to let that go. Having everyone speed 3 and 4 with no 1 or 2 is a bad distribution, and takes away from the variety that would make things interesting. Making 2 the norm, 3 unusual and 4 exceptional just makes sense to me. But some people may chafe at that. Probably better to explain to the group the deal with speed in the campaign and try to come to an understanding.

 

I would expect that the damage, defenses, and CV caps would carry through to spells as well as equipment.  And if you turn yourself into a flying howitzer, you won't have points for any defenses.

Yea, I think this will be fine. Sure, they can research all these spells and eventually they will be insanely powerful, but to start with they just won't. People won't be eager to jump in to the role, but it will be there.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do encourage having absolute limits on what magic can do, and rules such as "all spells must cost Endurance" to make sure nobody gets around the daily recharge rule.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Your benchmarks all look good for a low powered game.

 

Combat value looks like a good range. I would consider restricting Combat Skill Levels (or skill levels in general) at the beginning of the game to represent lesser skilled characters, which is what it looks like you are going for. Maybe a maximum amount of Skill Levels in total (including CSLs) of +3.

 

Your VPP looks good. Its appropriately restricted for the power level you want but high enough AP to facilitate a large number of effective builds. The restriction that spells can only be switched after the character studies their spell book for "X" hours is a good one. Thats your balancing factor. And the fact that you will then control what spells are available to acquire (ancient scrolls can be a very important comodity in this world!) is going to be a relief to you. Just make sure Spell Research is lengthy and challenging for players to design their own spells so that they can add a few of their own, but not so many that they end up running over the other chaaracters.

[Markdoc]

I would expect that the damage, defenses, and CV caps would carry through to spells as well as equipment.  And if you turn yourself into a flying howitzer, you won't have points for any defenses.

 

Actually, with the limitations suggested (requires a skill roll -1/2, side effects (ego blast on failure) -1/2, incantations -1/4, full phase to cast -1/2) you've got -1 3/4 in limitations: that means a 40 active point power draw 14 points out of your pool. A full 40 point attack, plus a full 40 point defence, still leaves 12 real points - enough for 33 active points of powers- say, invisibility to normal sight and 6" of flight.

 

You can do this with the suggested starting VPP and it's going to be more than enough to slaughter anything a 100 point mundane character can bring to bear. Trust me, we've been there, multiple times.

 

And the suggested caps actually don't matter too much to a mage since a) his 40 point VPP is under the cap and b ) he can tailor his attacks to work against low defences. You can, for example without any chicanery at all cast a simple 3d6/5PD+3ED Entangle for 35 active points .... that's going to lock up 90% of starting mundane PCs pretty much forever, and even a 20 STR character for a long, long time .... easily enough to fly them a couple of hundred metres into the air and drop them, for example.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Regarding the magic comments, I think you may have overlooked the spell mechanic. They have the VPP, but the pool can only reflect known spells. If they have a fly spell in their spellbook, then great. If not they are going to need to do a lot of work.

 

They will start with the ability to choose three spells. Anything else they want to come up with will be the result of game play and fortune. My expectation is that the wizard with the 40pt VPP will pick an offensive, defensive and utility spell to start... or perhaps three smaller utility spells and pick up some martial skills.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but we've had countless threads on these boards, with GMs complaining that their shiny new fantasy game is being trashed by their wizards. The "only spells that you have learned" is fine ... right up until the point where the wizard gets his hands on some decent spells. And that will happen (it's the nature of the game, really) unless you as GM are completely hardass about what spells they can access. After all, what happen if two starting PC mages agree to exchange spells? Now they each have 6 to choose from, and that was just the first adventure ....

 

So I am not saying don't use VPPs - I did so in my last campaign, without any problems. I am just warning you to lock down access to spells as tight as you can, rather than just letting them choose "magic". In my last game, I did so by requiring players to choose a specific (and quite limited) school of magic and also restricting them to spells that they could find and/or trade for. That allowed each magic user to do some unique and cool things, but not to dominate the game, since they could not do everything. In addition, they had to use Mana (Long Term Endurance), which recharged very slowly, so that a mage who really went to town with spell use, could find himself taking a couple of days to recover and being so exhausted he could barely move, for a few hours.

 

Getting magic right is the single most important thing you can do for your fantasy game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

re Speed. If you are using NCM, then Speed has a max of 4 until it costs double. In my experience, this dissuades nearly everyone from buying more than a speed of 4. We only see speed inflation in Supers games, never really in Heroic games.