Marvel Cine Universe levels

[Comic]

When I'm doing character modeling, I'm generally against giving someone a specialized power to produce a certain feat, with the goal of reducing the overall power level of the character.

 

Now that's a mouthful of a sentence, but here's what I mean.  Think back to the Avengers movie.  The Hulk makes his appearance for the final battle.  He punches some big, floaty armored dragon thing, and at least knocks it unconscious...  

 

I'd use vehicle rules.. since this was pretty clearly an articulated flying armored space bug carrier, whether it had some aspects of a living thing or not.

 

I don't think Hulk knocked it out. I think he destroyed it. With one punch.

 

But it was a vehicle, and all Hulk had to do was overcome vehicle DEF + BODY. With one punch.

 

A Haymaker, sure. But one punch.

 

To stop Iron Man's 10d6 EB reliably, it would only take 16 DEF to _never_ take enough damage to bring down, even if Tony pushed his EBs until he fell out of the sky. And what vehicle with 16 DEF needs more than 10 BODY?

 

So, 26 BODY in a single attack by Bruce. A haymaker, so 22d6 from one punch.

 

Giving Hulk 4d6 HA due size of fists, that's still 18d6 from STR.

 

I don't see him as a martial artist, though as one of the longer active Avengers (he's been on the run since long before Tony built his first suit of armor, and Cap was in a block of ice or depressed after oversleeping for 70 years after what was after all a career of less than four years, two of them on stage) he could have a couple of levels of skill adder from Dirty Infighting, say.

 

80-90 STR Hulk is about right. His huge size is all that keeps him from leaping off the planet and into orbit or beyond by accident at that STR level.. which in his earlier incarnations he wasn't really bright enough to avoid, I'd think.

 

But then, that's as low as I'd estimate his STR. I could easily see arguments for much higher.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, that's the low end.  He doesn't have an upper end: the madder he gets...  70 is probably a good base for mellow hulk and then upwards from there.

[massey]

Exactly, its lots of fast cuts to show him taking action, not an exact chronological sequence of events. That's like giving James Bond teleportation because he's show in one scene in London and the next in Sao Palo.

Except there are no cuts in that scene. The camera is on him the entire time. It doesn't cut away from him even once.

[Greywind]

PS: Movie editing/movie magic 14-

[massey]

Well if that's the case, Iron Man is a guy with Acting 13-, a few points of wealth, and Psych lim: recovering drug addict.

 

What is the point of trying to write up the characters on the screen if you don't even use the movies for a reference?

[Comic]

What about his missiles?  What about his lasers?

 

https://youtu.be/uy6zdEbxjuU?t=3m

 

So, from 3:03 to 3:11, I count 8 separate "actions" by Iron Man.  That means seeing a target, aiming, and shooting it.  It doesn't appear to be a spread attack, or a rapid attack.  He also mixes in ranged attacks and hand to hand attacks.  8 attacks in 8 seconds is pretty good.  He's definitely higher than a 4 speed.

 

https://youtu.be/DTqa-NEwUbs

 

What about the amount of damage he does here?  The variety of attacks?  Getting shot out of the sky, crashing into rock, and getting up okay?

 

Remembering the Champions combat round is an approximation of time, not an absolute clock-driven mechanism..

 

The Mickey Rourke fight is a bit messy to disentangle among all the maneuvers with the droids, but pacing it out looking at spread, multi-attack maneuvers, autofire and that one big AoE before Rourke arrives, we're looking at a SPD 3 Tony fighting smart and a SPD 4 Rhodes fighting with combat experience and military training.

 

After Rourke arrives, SPD 4 BBEG vs. a SPD 3 & SPD 4, maximum. Those fights took a very long time compared to the number of combat actions.

 

From Gulmira landing to final attack in the first scene is 1:22 to 2:15, I see half move/HA (1:27), EB (1:29), EB (1:31) EB (1:33) (I'd call those two spread EB), autofire (selective target 5 shot) (1:49), then full move HA (2:12) . Four attacks in 12 seconds, I'd call SPD 4. Very slow for next 16 seconds and then next 13 seconds with only 1-2 actions per round. Explain away the first Half move/HA as held action, that's SPD 3.

 

Then dodge/EB at 2:50, next attack at 3:06.. this is not the Flash. This is plausibly a SPD 3 character.

[Comic]

Here's another example.

 

 

Galahad is by my count no faster than SPD 4.

 

Between the time he knocks out his first target with a beer mug to the time he renders the publican amnesiac is roughly 80 seconds, the first attack arguably a held action combined with a PRE attack that delays the fight until Galahad is in most favorable position tactically.

 

25 actions, 75 seconds. An action every 3 seconds.

 

Now, his OCV is at least 5 higher than street thugs, and his DCV similarly exceptional, but Galahad's clearly a highly trained martial artist.

 

With SPD 4.

 

Impressive as all get out, capable of mopping up a half dozen tough thugs, and SPD 4.

 

Notice he doesn't one-punch any of them, either. In the fight the average knocks to knock out his opponents is 3 each. Of course, he was just fooling around, pulling his punches, holding back.

 

Because all out, he'd have killed them outright.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXB6slJSbL4

 

From 0:41 seconds to 1:41, an alarming 25 attacks, though clearly many of them multiple attacks with a selective fire weapon, or sweeps, or martial multi-target maneuvers. SPD 4.

 

There were fewer than 100 participants in the melee; we can charitably say Galahad got in 50 attacks that we saw in the two minutes or so he was on screen. If he weren't a supremely skilled combatant using every trick to maximize his attacks with weapons that feature selective fire and tactics that affected multiple targets by tactics, we might call him SPD 5, or at most SPD 6 if he were an utterly ineffectual buffoon who didn't know how to use his vastly superior SPD effectively.

 

But Harry's a Kingsman, one of the most cunningly efficient combat mercenaries in the world. At SPD 4.

 

Gazelle? SPD 4 too.

[Comic]

Two cinematic characters with higher SPD that couldn't be explained by multi-target maneuvers?

 

Cleric Preston (Christian Bale) from Equilibrium. SPD 5. (Though he certainly uses multi-target maneuvers too.)

 

Hit Girl (Chloe Moretz). SPD 6. (She tends to take on a single target at a time, but in very rapid sequence.)

 

I don't think I've seen any character depicted with higher SPD on film other than in Star Trek. More speed? Sure.

[Greywind]

Well if that's the case, Iron Man is a guy with Acting 13-, a few points of wealth, and Psych lim: recovering drug addict.

 

What is the point of trying to write up the characters on the screen if you don't even use the movies for a reference?

 

For the same reason you don't reference every minor little trick the characters manage in the comic books. Bloat.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hit girl uses a lot of sweep maneuvers and multiple target attacks.

[Comic]

Hit girl uses a lot of sweep maneuvers and multiple target attacks.

 

Yes. Hit Girl is very much the full combat package, capable of switching between a sharp focus on a single target at a time until it's down, and covering the field without focus on a single target, seamlessly.

 

However, review her combat sequences closely, and you'll see it is dominated by linearity -- inhumanly fast, but still one target is cycled down through the attack sequence before the next observed target is oriented on, decided to acquire, and acted on in a clear OODA loop -- over combination maneuvers that rely on success in the previous part of the action to mount the next phase.

 

This is not an accident, but appears to come out of the martial philosophy of her choreographer, similar to Jason Bourne's combat techniques. Hit Girl fights like a Navy pilot, or a practitioner of those chi-focus combat styles over the more balletic dance styles you see in Kingsman or Avengers.

[Cassandra]

Tony Stark

 

Val Char Cost

15 STR 5

18 DEX 24

15 CON 10

12 BODY 4

23 INT 16

11 EGO 2

15 PRE 5

16 COM 3

6 PD 3

4 ED 1

3 SPD 2

6 REC 0

30 END 0

28 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 75 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Combat Driving [small Ground Vehicles] 13-

6 Combat Luck +3 rPD +3 rED

3 Computer Programming 14-

5 Cramming

3 Electronics 14-

3 Inventor 14-

2 Lang: Fluent French

4 Martial Dodge

4 Martial Strike

3 Mechanics 14-

15 Money: Filthy Rich

5 Offensive Strike

3 Power [iNT] 14-

3 PS[iNT]: Industrialist 14-

2 Rep: Genius Billionaire Playboy Philanthropist 11-

3 SS[iNT]: Nuclear Engineering 14-

3 Security Systems 14-

3 Seduction 12-

2 WF: Small Arms

Total Skills Cost: 75 Points

 

Cost Powers

9 Armor +5 rPD +5 rED, 14- (-1/2), IIF: Concealed Body Armor (-1/4)

8 ES: HRRP, IAF: Jarvis Communicator (-1/2)

33 Multiform: 250 Points [iron Man Armor], IAF: Jarvis Communicator (-1/2)

50 VPP 40 Points, OAF (-1)

Total Powers Cost: 100 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disdvantages

5 DNPC: Pepper Potts (Useful Normal) 8-

10 Hunted: Current Villain (As Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: SHIELD (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

15 PsyL: In Love With Pepper Potts (Common/Strong)

15 PsyL: Overconfidence (Very Common/Moderate)

20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong)

5 SocL: Famous (Occasionally/Minor)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

Iron Man

 

15 STR 5

18 DEX 24

25*/15 CON 23

12 BODY 4

23 INT 16

11 EGO 2

15 PRE 5

16 COM 3

8*/6 PD 4

8*/4 ED 2

4*/3 SPD 9

10*/6 REC 3

50*/30 END 0

33*/28 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Cost Skills

2* Absolute Range Sense

2* Absolute Time Sense

2* Bump of Directrion

5* CSL: Combat +1

3 Computer Programming 14-

2 Navigation [Air] 14-

3 Rep: Superhero 14-

3 Systems Operation 14-

3 Tactics 14-

Total Skills Cost: 25 Points

 

Cost Powers

21* Armor +12 rPD +12 rED, Cost END Only To Activate (-1/4)

35* Multipower (52 Points)

3* u) EB 10d6 [Lasers]

3* u) EB 6d6, Double KNB (+3/4) [Repulsors]

3* u) RKA 3d6+1, [16c] (-0) [Anti-Tank Rockets]

3* u) RKA 2d6, AE One Hex (+1/2), Selective Target (+1/4) [shoulder Missiles]

3* u) STR +40, 1/2 END (+1/4)

25* ES: HRRP, Telescopic Sight +4, 360 Degree Radar, UV Sight, Cost END Only To Active (-1/4)

3* Flash Def [sight] 5 Points

12* Multipower (18 Points)

1* u) Flight 9"

1* u) Flight 3", Megascale 1km (+1/4), No END Persistent (+1)

1* u) Swimming +7", 4x NCM, No END (+1/2)

11* LS: High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self Contained, Cost END Only To Activate (-1/4)

Total Powers Cost: 125 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

*OIF: Powered Armor (-1/2)

 

150+ Disadvantages

5 DNPC: Pepper Potts (Useful Normal) 8-

10 Hunted: Current Enemy (As Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: SHIELD (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

15 PsyL: In Love With Pepper Potts (Common/Strong)

15 PsyL: Overconfidence (Very Common/Moderate)

20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong)

5 SocL: Famous (Occasionally/Minor)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

This is my second attempt to build Tony Stark/Iron Man from the Marvel Cinematic Universe.  Genius in a comic book universe is less skill based and rather focuses on what the character can build.  Tony escape from captivity by using his VPP to build a Multiform 200 Points [iron Man Mark 1].  His Cramming is how he became an expert on "Thermonuclear Astrophysics".  

[Cassandra]

What about his missiles?  What about his lasers?

 

https://youtu.be/uy6zdEbxjuU?t=3m

 

So, from 3:03 to 3:11, I count 8 separate "actions" by Iron Man.  That means seeing a target, aiming, and shooting it.  It doesn't appear to be a spread attack, or a rapid attack.  He also mixes in ranged attacks and hand to hand attacks.  8 attacks in 8 seconds is pretty good.  He's definitely higher than a 4 speed.

 

https://youtu.be/DTqa-NEwUbs

 

What about the amount of damage he does here?  The variety of attacks?  Getting shot out of the sky, crashing into rock, and getting up okay?

 

I added the Anti-Tank Rockets, Shoulder Missiles, Lasers, and Repulsors to the new version.

[megaplayboy]

The Big Norse Elephant in the room, probably in excess of 1000 points. Even de-powered, he beats up a bunch of SHIELD agents trying to get to Mjolnir. With the hammer, he's the Head Norseman In Charge.

[massey]

Remembering the Champions combat round is an approximation of time, not an absolute clock-driven mechanism..

 

The Mickey Rourke fight is a bit messy to disentangle among all the maneuvers with the droids, but pacing it out looking at spread, multi-attack maneuvers, autofire and that one big AoE before Rourke arrives, we're looking at a SPD 3 Tony fighting smart and a SPD 4 Rhodes fighting with combat experience and military training.

 

After Rourke arrives, SPD 4 BBEG vs. a SPD 3 & SPD 4, maximum. Those fights took a very long time compared to the number of combat actions.

 

From Gulmira landing to final attack in the first scene is 1:22 to 2:15, I see half move/HA (1:27), EB (1:29), EB (1:31) EB (1:33) (I'd call those two spread EB), autofire (selective target 5 shot) (1:49), then full move HA (2:12) . Four attacks in 12 seconds, I'd call SPD 4. Very slow for next 16 seconds and then next 13 seconds with only 1-2 actions per round. Explain away the first Half move/HA as held action, that's SPD 3.

 

Then dodge/EB at 2:50, next attack at 3:06.. this is not the Flash. This is plausibly a SPD 3 character.

 

I don't think Rhodey is higher Spd than Tony.  Watching the droid fight, Tony takes several more actions than Rhodey does.  Tony is really quick when it comes to seeing a target, aiming, hitting, destroying, and then moving on to a new target.  To me that says most of those require an independent action.

 

The fight with Mickey Rourke is different, because there's a lot of other stuff going on.  For one, he's the big bad villain, and so there's a lot of DBZ-style standing around and posing to look tough.  You also have a lot of standing around and talking.  There's a big build-up to Rhodey launching "the X-1" missile that turns out to be a big dud.  It was really funny in the movie.  Watching that scene again, there's 15 seconds devoted to that, just to make the audience laugh.  I don't think that took a full turn of combat time.  That's probably a full phase action, given how he braced himself and the missile took time to charge up.

 

Someone earlier talked about Hollywood timing, and I think that's true to an extent.  In the game, soliloquy takes no time.  You can basically have a conversation in combat.  On the screen, pacing issues mean that that kind of fight (with a lot of banter) is going to take significantly longer to show.  Besides, it's the big fight with the villain at the end of the movie, and so to be an effective climax, it can't take 7 seconds.  So let's look at the fight:

 

--

 

Pre-Phase 12:  Rhodey fires up the X-1 missile.  He can do this as a free attack since it's funny.  The villain knows it's not going to work ,the GM knows it's not going to work.  Only Rhodey thinks its going to work.  Attack fails, whole group laughs.  Now the real combat begins.

 

Phase 12.  Tony, with the highest Dex, attacks with those missile-dart things.  A small autofire RKA with OCV bonuses.  Attack fails to do damage.  Mickey Rourke lashes out with a spread attack trying to hit both good guys.  Damage is minimal.  Rhodey makes a Breakfall roll and shoots his gatling gun.

 

Post 12 recoveries.  Everybody is okay.  Next combat turn.  Here phases get tricky, because we don't know what Speed everybody is.

 

Phase 2 (?).  Mickey Rourke slashes Rhodey's cannon.  Tony flies into the air.  Mickey Rourke hits Tony with either a grab or an Entangle or something, and throws him to the ground.

 

Next phase (?), Rhodey runs and shoots at Mickey Rourke.  Mickey Rourke raises an arm to protect his head, Tony charges, Mickey Rourke does a martial throw and flings Tony through the air, offscreen.

 

Mickey Rourke then whips Rhodey around the neck.  Rhodey cannot break free.

 

Mickey Rourke pulls Rhodey towards him and punches him in the face.  Tony leaps in from offscreen and punches Mickey Rourke.

 

Tony punches Mickey Rourke twice more, Mickey Rourke headbutts Tony and whips him twice, catching him around the neck on the last one.  Tony cannot break free.

 

Rhodey shoots Mickey Rourke from the ground, Mickey Rourke takes a half-move and stomps on Rhodey's chest.  Some foot clamp thing grabs onto Rhodey.

 

Tony yanks Mickey Rourke backwards, freeing Rhodey for just a second.  Mickey Rourke then whip-grabs Rhodey.

 

Struggling.

 

Struggling.

 

Still struggling.

 

Tony talks to Rhodey, comes up with a plan.

 

Both heroes point repulsors, coordinate their attacks, and maybe haymaker?  Big kaboom.

 

--

 

What I take from this fight.  Mickey Rourke has a higher Speed than either hero.  Tony has more speed, and more maneuvers, than Rhodey.  Tony has the highest Dex, followed by Rourke, followed by Rhodey.  Mickey Rourke's armor is probably build with Extra Limbs (whips and foot clamps), Stretching (whips), and extra Str only for grab (whips).  That's in addition to his normal whip attacks that just do damage.  Whatever Tony's Str is in armor, it's not high enough to break the grab with the whips.

 

I think that towards the end of the fight, there are a few phases of "I try to break out of the grab".  Roll dice.  "You failed to get out of the grab.  He squeezes you again."  I think you've also got a phase or two of "got thrown away from combat area, failed Breakfall roll, gotta spend time getting up and moving back to where the fight is".

 

All told, I'd give Tony in the armor a Speed 6.  I'd give Rhodey a Speed 5.  I'd give Mickey Rourke a Speed 7 or 8.  He's got a big action advantage over the good guys.  Remember that Tony outmaneuvers jet fighters in the first movie, drives a racecar out of armor in the second, and stomps a bunch of paramilitary goons outside of his armor in the third.  He's got good stats.

[massey]

When I'm writing up a character, I usually try to get a ballpark figure of what the guy can do. So I just kinda pick numbers and plug them in. Then I start looking at the source material and seeing what all they can do. Then I compare them to published characters or pre-existing writeups to make sure I haven't missed something important and to make sure that he or she matches up well.

 

As a ballpark, let's go with something like this (5th Ed):

 

Iron Man (in suit)

 

Str 70 (pushes a car 100+ feet with his foot)

Dex 26 (reactions just a hair slower than Cap)

Con 35 (can take a lot of damage)

Body 20 (same)

Int 30 ("Tony Stark built this thing in a cave!")

Ego 15 (holds up under POW conditions)

Pre 25 (charismatic anyway, plus cool suit)

Com 16 (good looking)

 

PD 40 (crashes while flying, not hurt much)

ED 40 (same level)

Spd 6 (see earlier)

Rec 21 (figured)

End 70 (figured)

Stun 75 (mostly figured, but I like multiples of 5)

 

That looks about right to me. We'll give him repulsors and other attacks somewhere in the 15D6 range. For each movie, he's also usually got one "super attack" that is much higher damage than the others. He's got the tank missile in part one and the laser "Death Blossom" thing in part 2. In part 3 he's screwing around with multiple suits, and has that "I keep changing suits in mid-combat" thing that I haven't worked out how to build yet. I didn't like part 3 much and I don't want to rewatch it.

 

I can pretty much justify all of my stats I've given him without too much trouble. That's a good starting point for him. To do a complete writeup, I'd spend a lot more time watching the movies again and estimating damage classes and such. Look and see what those aliens from Avengers could blow up with their blasters. Stuff like that. Getting good benchmarks is important. The exact details of the writeup (multiform, OIHID, etc) are a lot more of a player preference issue.

[Greywind]

I'd chalk up Tony doing more in the fights to 2 things: 1) more experience with the tech than Rhodey 2) it's HIS movie.

 

As for soliloquy, there is a comment made by Raimi on the fact that Spider-Man doesn't quip a lot during the fight with Doc Ock due to the impracticality of it during a fight. When they stop to catch their breath, sure. During the actual fighting, no.

[Comic]

I agree it's translation folly to try to make cinema exactly match game mechanics, for a game based on the cells on a comic book page.

 

That said, the same comic book page cell format is used in story boards used to plot action in movies, so this is arguably a doable feat most of the time.

 

I'm surprised more comic-based movies don't use Ryan Reynolds Deadpool-style 4th wall breaking narrative over the action to get in the soliloquies and banter that just don't work in fast-paced fisticuffs.

 

Or puts his hands up, yells, "Stop! Wait! I know what you're thinking.." to get in that line about the guy in the brown pants having the right idea.

 

In a comic book, Deadpool wouldn't need the "Stop! Wait!" bit. He'd just quip over all the gunfire and explosions and it would have the effect of conveying the character as distinct from all the other guys shooting weapons.

 

So yes, we have to count dialogue as out-of-action time, almost all the time.

 

Still, I abhor SPD bloat. SPD is a relative stat, since it's actions-relative-to-the-other-guys. Unlike STR, we can't get a good measure of how SPDy a character is by what they are shown to lift or throw (which is often inconsistent enough in stories to be maddening anyway).

 

What we can do is look for cues from pacing. We are lucky in Iron Man's case as we have so many referents to compare him to. Not just Whiplash, but also Rhodey, Thor, Captain America, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Happy Hogan.

 

For Iron Man to have 6 SPD means we have to scale all of these referents to him.

 

Black Widow -- a highly trained normal -- would need SPD 9 or 10. Happy Hogan, not the sharpest tool in the shed, SPD 4-5. Every Extremis subject, SPD 6 too, including Pepper Potts. Captain America is faster than Black Widow by a smidge.

 

Now you can sell me on a lot of things about Captain America. But SPD 10-11?

 

That is SPD bloat.

 

And we don't begin to have a hope of putting Quicksilver into the standard 12 SPD framework.

 

So I'm comfortable with a SPD 3-4 Iron Man, tending to 3, and a SPD 5-6 Black Widow, a SPD 6-7 Captain America, a SPD 12 Quicksilver, Happy Hogan at SPD 2. That framing of the whole continuum of character relative SPD works in game sense, and is an adequate interpretation of what we see on the screen. It's remarkably consistent, too, which makes sense given the same story board technique as underlies Champions is at the root of screen action, and a lot of the guys who make movies see their characters much the way we do, too.

[massey]

I don't see any need for the Spd bloat you're talking about.  Why would Black Widow have such a higher Spd than Tony?  Out of armor, sure.  But why when he's in armor?  I don't give people extra Spd just to give it to them.  Black Widow is probably a 6 Spd too.  Cap is a 6 or 7.  Happy Hogan is probably a 3.  He's basically an agent.  Quicksilver, I'd have to watch Age of Ultron again.  He's got a lot of inches of movement, and a high Dex, but other than having streaky special effects, I don't remember him doing much to justify a 12.  The Quicksilver from Days of Future Past, sure.  That guy was terrifyingly fast.

 

I don't see the need to drop comic book characters, or movie characters, so far below the normal baseline that published Champions books have established.  If Defender gets a 5 Spd, then Tony should be at least that good.  I don't go through and modify published characters to tone them down.

[Christopher R Taylor]

For Iron Man to have 6 SPD means we have to scale all of these referents to him.

 

Black Widow -- a highly trained normal -- would need SPD 9 or 10. Happy Hogan, not the sharpest tool in the shed, SPD 4-5. Every Extremis subject, SPD 6 too, including Pepper Potts. Captain America is faster than Black Widow by a smidge.

 

Now you can sell me on a lot of things about Captain America. But SPD 10-11?  

 

That is SPD bloat

 

Yeah I'm with you here.  Cap is 5-6 in my book, tops, with lots of multiple-target attacks and tricks to make him seem faster.  I see him at human max, plus a bit beyond, so STR 25 or 30 max, etc.  Iron man would be 4-5 in armor.

[massey]

 

Yeah I'm with you here.  Cap is 5-6 in my book, tops, with lots of multiple-target attacks and tricks to make him seem faster.  I see him at human max, plus a bit beyond, so STR 25 or 30 max, etc.  Iron man would be 4-5 in armor.

 

 

See, I think the problem here is that those numbers just don't match what we see onscreen.  Movie Cap is a 30 Str, minimum.  I don't care anything about "human max", what we see them do trumps everything else.  In the Civil War trailer, we see Cap outrunning cars on foot, and holding a helicopter in place with his arm muscles.  The Ultimate Vehicle gives an Apache helicopter a 42 Str (other helicopters are not listed).  So even pushing his Str by 10 points, he needs a 32, and that's before the copter tries to add its Flight to get away.  I'd give him at least a 35 Str based on what we see from that scene alone.

 

Don't forget In Age of Ultron when he throws his motorcycle through the front of the HYDRA jeep.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byY3UrjtZMI

 

Later (2:10 in the clip) he grabs Ultron, and one-handed throws him into a concrete pillar, which breaks.  That's probably a 45 or 50 Str right there, to throw him with that much force.  I'll remind everyone that the phrase "max human potential" or any derivative thereof does not appear in the Marvel movies with regard to the super-soldier serum.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, they amped up his strength significantly in the movies.  He's way stronger than he should be, probably because they figured that was cooler.  When I saw him rip the door of a car in the first Cap film I was staring in confusion.  He's not Spider-Man.

[Comic]

I'll be agnostic about Cap's STR for now. It's not very much of an issue for me, though I tend to place Captain America in the 25-45 STR range from the way he's been presented -- and that's an enormously broad range -- let's remember that the upper end of that gives him the strength to throw his shield into freaking orbit using the Ultimate Brick extended charts.. so.. no, just no.

 

Black Widow's SPD? That's easy. She's in multiple scenes in the same film where the pacing clearly shows her at least 50% faster in deliberate, individually targeted actions (whether single or multiple targets per se) than Iron Man. Not Tony, but the suit. Sure, it's possible to fudge and suggest her SPD is just a martial artist version of Iron Man's, and MA's are somehow more tactical than Energy Projectors.. but I just don't buy that, and there's zero need for it if Tony is SPD 3 (or at a stretch, 4).

 

How do we know Quicksilver's SPD is really that much higher?

 

Seriously?

 

 

In a fight with the Avengers in close quarters at least a half move apart from each other, he still gets in attack actions as often as each of them that we see. Sure, some of his attacks might be massive AoE Selective, but this is SPDster Speedster.

 

As for Happy Hogan being a SPD 3 agent? I'd argue SPD 1 plucky comedy relief.

[Tasha]

It's so hard to really peg heroes in the movies or comics. IMHO the best thing you can do is to fit them into the campaign stats YOU want to run. ie for me, I would put Thor at SPD 4, Iron Man at 5, Hulk at 4, Scarlet Witch at 5, Hawkeye at 5, Cap at  6 and Black Widow at 6, Quicksilver 7. You can fiddle with Dex to make up some of the "Feel" differences ie Cap at Dex 30 and Widow at 28, Thor at Dex 23 and Hulk at Dex 18.  Iron Man, Scarlet Witch at 23 and Hawkeye at 26. Make sure that Cap, Widow, Hawkeye all have a boatload of combat skill levels for their attacks.

 

With that spread of numbers I could drop any Champions Villain into the game without much trouble. I could drop a Champions PC into the Avengers without the existing team members outshining the PC's (Unless that is the feel you want).

 

I would keep Cap at STR 30 and assume that he pushed his Str to do some of the crazier stuff you see in the movies.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I try to build characters around reasonable background and concept.  Thor, for example, is very well trained in combat and has been for centuries at least - speed 5 in my book.  Captain America is slightly above human possibility, so speed 5.  Hulk is just big and strong and has never demonstrated any particular swiftness in combat: speed 3.  Scarlet Witch is shown doing lots of stuff but her actions are very implausible as described in the scene with Quicksilver, so I figure the speedster is holding back or (more likely) lots of stuff is happening they don't show, like when the camera is on her, he's hitting 3 more guys.  She's not combat trained or specially fast: speed 3-4.  He's very fast, but not insanely so like Flash: maybe speed 6.