Incorporating Hit Location effects into Attack Roll

[Outsider]

I didn't cost it out, but I did pick picked values that were more or less in line with what various characters had in my years of experience playing Fantasy Hero. This was in 5th and prior editions, though, so things might be (and probably are) considerably different in 6th.

 

In Supers games, things could get even uglier, as it was easier to have an larger CV & SPD disparity.

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, but in supers the damage etc diverges and the options diversify even more. Like I say, once the brim gets ahold of the martial artist, it tends to mean game over...

 

As for balance, the big drawback in HERO is for the GM to balance things and to enforce the things that do the role in Fantasy Hero. Did you use the encumbrance rules for the armour? I seem to remember even five points all over required a substantial amount of STR to avoid significant END penalties. First game I played that really enforced the distinction between heavy, slow and well-armoured versus fast and lightly armoured through player decision rather than by class.

[Steve]

A question that comes to my mind is if the constructs Outsider is using for his analysis would get greatly different results if we were comparing their ability to do damage as called shots? In my experience, characters with a significant CV advantage will generally use called shots more often than low CV characters. I admit there would be more missing, cutting down on the average damage, but it seems that Nestor would be using more called shots and Hubert wouldn't even bother, since his CV is so much lower.

 

Part of my original thinking came from how autofire attacks work. Damage increases as you get better results on the dice, so why couldn't something like that happen with a regular hit?

[Doc Democracy]

I am with Steve. I think high STR combatants should benefit from glancing blows. I think that balances high DEX combatants choosing to risk missing to increase damage...

[pinecone]

Actually, what I had in mind was something like this:

 

1) Hit by 0 to -3: Normal Damage

2) Hit by -4 to -7: 1.5x Damage

3) Hit by -8 or more: 2x Damage

 

Instead of one roll to hit and then a second roll to determine hit location, it's done in one roll.

 

Perhaps it could even be expanded into near-miss territory. Miss by 1 or maybe even 2 and still do 1/2 damage. Miss by 3 or more and it's a clean miss.

I just roll 6 dice 3 of one color, 3 of a differant...hit roll, and location in one roll...?

[pinecone]

Actually, what I had in mind was something like this:

 

1) Hit by 0 to -3: Normal Damage

2) Hit by -4 to -7: 1.5x Damage

3) Hit by -8 or more: 2x Damage

 

Instead of one roll to hit and then a second roll to determine hit location, it's done in one roll.

 

Perhaps it could even be expanded into near-miss territory. Miss by 1 or maybe even 2 and still do 1/2 damage. Miss by 3 or more and it's a clean miss.

I just roll 6 dice 3 of one color, 3 of a differant...hit roll, and location in one roll...?

[Steve]

I just roll 6 dice 3 of one color, 3 of a differant...hit roll, and location in one roll...?

The hit location roll still requires consulting a chart to determine the location and damage multipliers for that location.

[Hyper-Man]

The hit location roll still requires consulting a chart to determine the location and damage multipliers for that location.

 

 

1) Hit by 0 to -3: Normal Damage

2) Hit by -4 to -7: 1.5x Damage

3) Hit by -8 or more: 2x Damage

 

 

is still a chart

 

[Steve]

Yes, but you could technically say the same thing about an autofire attack. It's a pretty simple chart compared to trying to look up or remember the damage multipliers for hit location 15.

[Doc Democracy]

is still a chart

 

It is but it is counting two sets of dice rather than one (some of the problems folk have with dice amazes me).

 

The harder you can make a single roll work (and make the rolls more consistent with outcomes) the better.

 

Doc

 

(IMOSHOO)

[Doc Democracy]

*In My Oh So Humble Opinion, Obviously

[Steve]

Borrowing from autofire, the progression could be further smoothed.

 

1) Hit by 0 to -1: Normal Damage

2) Hit by -2 to -3: 1.25x Damage

3) Hit by -4 to -5: 1.5x Damage

4) Hit by -6 to -7: 1.75x Damage

5) Hit by -8 or more: 2x Damage

[Hyper-Man]

AOE Accurate (which is automatically vs. a DCV of 3) become even better with no downside.

 

Example:

40    Heat Vision: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) - END=6

[Steve]

True. The downside with hit location penalties and AOE Accurate is the greater chance to miss, since to get the same chance of hitting the head with the example AOE Accurate power requires buying eight penalty levels versus hit location penalties.

[Outsider]

Yes, but you could technically say the same thing about an autofire attack. It's a pretty simple chart compared to trying to look up or remember the damage multipliers for hit location 15.

 

Autofire attack may ramp up damage with better to hit rolls, but AF is also an advantage to the power, and carries a significant END penalty if one doesn't add yet another advantage.  

 

"Aimed Shot After The Fact" as a +1 Advantage would be a different discussion than "Aimed Shot After The Fact" as a freebie.

 

If your goal is to get rid of the 3-18 random hit location table, there are several other options available.

 

1) Replacing the current hit location system with a simplified 'aimed shot' rule that otherwise works exactly the same as the current aimed shot rule.  A -8 shot gets 2.0x/5x, a -4 gets 1.5x/4x, otherwise, any hit does 1.0x/3x.   Declare ahead of time, if the penalty causes you to miss, you miss all together.

 

2) Just use the STUN Multiplier die.  1,1,2 3,4,5.  High rolls are hits to 'good' locations, low rolls to 'bad' ones.  If a 1D6-1 roll is too random, make it (2D6/2)-1, or just have all attacks do 3x STUN, and leave it up to the raw damage roll to determine 'good' vs 'bad' hits.

 

3) Give each character the option to fight in a freebie 'metastyle'

A) Precision Strikes :  "Aimed Shot After The Fact" as you've presented it.  

Cleaving Blows : "All attacks are considered AoE hex accurate (always attack against DCV 3), but also always do only 3x STUN."

Any heavy fighter who persists in choosing A) when fighting a nimble opponent deserves to lose.

 

(Note : option isn't entirely serious.  It is just giving an example of a 'rule change' that is clearly biased the other way, screwing higher DCV characters instead of screwing lower DCV ones, like the ASATF.)

[pinecone]

The hit location roll still requires consulting a chart to determine the location and damage multipliers for that location.

Ah, though that chart is on the char sheet...?

 

The main issue is "meta" if there is a big bonus attached, then buying levels etc becomes an "issue"

 

"Duelist's eye": +5 OCV with single weapon is pretty cheap, and "I practice" is a good justification.

[Doc Democracy]

The whole topic shows our in-built assumptions and the things we have agreed are OK because they fit in with the way we play. AoE Accurate is one of those. We accept that paying an advantage on our energy blast allows us to negate someone's DCV . That is cool but it is an absolute solution to a graded problem. Should the same advantage have the same effect on DCV 7 as it does on DCV 30? This becomes more edged when that solution might be used to double damage using hit locations.

 

You are raising problems that this kind of change might cause but I would say the change only highlights some of the issues inherent in the current system as you move from the generalist approach of hit, roll damage to the more specific of hit, determine random location, generate and modify damage, or target location, hit or miss, generate modified damage.

 

Any tweak we make to assumptions will guarantee that you need to look at all the ramifications, including whether the shortcuts we have previously accepted continue to be acceptable compromises. In some cases the answer to that is going to be no.

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Borrowing from autofire, the progression could be further smoothed.

 

1) Hit by 0 to -1: Normal Damage

2) Hit by -2 to -3: 1.25x Damage

3) Hit by -4 to -5: 1.5x Damage

4) Hit by -6 to -7: 1.75x Damage

5) Hit by -8 or more: 2x Damage

....let me make sure I understand you.

 

You're proposing to regularly multiply damage rolls by 1.25 or 1.75....and this is supposed to make the game run faster or simpler or less complicated or something?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and one and three quarters palindromedaries

[Steve]

For every two extra points you hit your target on the dice, the damage you roll increases by 25%, borrowing from the structure of autofire attacks.

 

I'm proposing this as an alternative to rolling a second set of 3d6 and then consulting a chart to see what location is hit, finding the multipliers from that chart for normal or killing damage (since they are not the same) and then applying those multipliers to the damage rolled.

 

Instead of rolling to hit, rolling for hit location and then rolling for damage, I'm proposing a way to take one set of rolls (and a chart lookup) out of the combat resolution.

 

Roll to hit, gain a 25% damage bonus for every two points you hit by, roll damage and multiply.

 

It seems easier to me, but without the hit location roll I admit there is not a way to fit into it impairing and disabling wounds, since they go against specific locations. In campaigns that don't use those rules, it would be a simpler way to do something like hit location damage multiples without needing the chart.

[mallet]

I'm working on something similar for a Western Hero game I'm running soon. Trying to simplify things a bit, add a bit of order to the randomness and give it a bit more of a feel for the setting. 

 

What I'm currently going with is that all hits are assumed to hit the chest.Then by every full 2 points you make your attack roll by the character can chose to move the hit location a certain amount. 

 

Right now it is like this:

 

Roll made by      Location Options

0-1                      Chest

2-3                      Stomach or Shoulder

4-5                      Arm or Leg

6-7                      Head or Vitals

8+                       Hand or Foot

 

I realize that this makes hitting the head and vitals slightly easier then RAW, but A ) I feel RAW isn't realistic (it is a lot easier to shoot someone in the head then it is to shoot them in the hand) and B ) I'll be playing with the group of friends I've been playing with for 12+ years, so I know they won't be abusing the system. They will want to shoot a NPC in the hand to make them drop a gun or the foot to stop them from running away just as much (if not more) then always going for the "kill shot" to do the most damage. 

 

I'm hoping this slightly speeds up game play, while making the characters able to still hit the enemy and have the more options in where they hit them (depending on their roll) to add some flavour and to give them potentially "non-lethal" hit options if they just want to wound an enemy, not kill them. 

 

Anyway, haven't tested it out yet, just something I'm fooling around with as I tweak the rules for the campaign. 

[Lucius]

For every two extra points you hit your target on the dice, the damage you roll increases by 25%, borrowing from the structure of autofire attacks.

 

 

 

Give it a try and let us know how quickly your players can multiply by 1.75.

 

 

And I have to ask - who uses the Hit Location chart and DOESN'T use the Impairing and Disabling rules, and why would you?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Have you see the Hit Location Chart for the palindromedary?

[Hugh Neilson]

Right now it is like this:

 

Roll made by      Location Options

0-1                      Chest

2-3                      Stomach or Shoulder

4-5                      Arm or Leg

6-7                      Head or Vitals

8+                       Hand or Foot

So, if I am the most accurate shooter in the Wild West, I will typically hit my target in the hand or foot, but if I'm some farmboy who just picked up a gun, I'll typically get a chest hit, normally the better combat result? I would think a sharpshooter is more likely to hit whatever body part he chooses to target, not more likely to hit an extremity than center body mass.

[Outsider]

Just allow the shooter to pick any location that his roll, or worse, would allow.   If you're the best shot int he west and typically hit by 5, you typically choose arm, leg, stomach, shoulder OR chest.   Farmboy typically just gets chest if he hits at all.

[Outsider]

For every two extra points you hit your target on the dice, the damage you roll increases by 25%, borrowing from the structure of autofire attacks.

 

I'm proposing this as an alternative to rolling a second set of 3d6 and then consulting a chart to see what location is hit, finding the multipliers from that chart for normal or killing damage (since they are not the same) and then applying those multipliers to the damage rolled.

 

Instead of rolling to hit, rolling for hit location and then rolling for damage, I'm proposing a way to take one set of rolls (and a chart lookup) out of the combat resolution.

 

Roll to hit, gain a 25% damage bonus for every two points you hit by, roll damage and multiply.

 

It seems easier to me, but without the hit location roll I admit there is not a way to fit into it impairing and disabling wounds, since they go against specific locations. In campaigns that don't use those rules, it would be a simpler way to do something like hit location damage multiples without needing the chart.

 

 

Zoiks!  You're multiplying the damage BEFORE applying defenses?   OCV isn't just emperor, its divine!

 

It also doesn't simulate the bullet (say) having to penetrate the target's personal armor before getting to that vulnerable multiple damage location that lets it do more damage. 

 

Is there even a cap?  Or if I manage to hit by 16, do I get to quadruple the damage before my target applies any defenses?

[Steve]

Zoiks!  You're multiplying the damage BEFORE applying defenses?   OCV isn't just emperor, its divine!

 

It also doesn't simulate the bullet (say) having to penetrate the target's personal armor before getting to that vulnerable multiple damage location that lets it do more damage. 

 

Is there even a cap?  Or if I manage to hit by 16, do I get to quadruple the damage before my target applies any defenses?

 

Hmm. If I do it after defenses, then STUN from Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks would work the same, which might not necessarily be a bad thing.

 

Double damage would be the cap.