Question about linked powers

[TheDarkness]

Fairly specific question here.

 

Am I understanding correctly, using a simple example, if I linked a dodge to a strike, calling it a counterstrike, the two occur simultaneously?

 

 

Second, if I abort to that dodge, I can do the strike, even though in abort, one cannot usually abort to a strike?

 

Third, if the second is true, have I aborted my next action, or my next two, one for the dodge, one for the strike, or is the linked power considered one action?

[Hyper-Man]

1. Dodge and Strike are Combat Maneuvers, NOT Powers so the Linked Limitation is not applicable.

2. See the rules for Combined Attack and Multiple Attack in 6e2.

3. "a character cannot use defensive maneuvers or Actions (such as Block, Dodge, or Deflection) as part of a Multiple Attack. Nor can he make a Multiple “Attack” that consists of nothing but defensive actions."

 

From 6e1 page 383,
 

LINKED
A character can only use a power with this Limitation with another power. If he isn’t using the other power (the “greater power”), he can’t use the power with the Linked Limitation (the “lesser power”) either.

Linked only affects the lesser power. A character can use the greater power without using the lesser power if he wants; Linked doesn’t restrict the greater power in any way. However, he can only use the lesser power when he uses the greater power.

 

[Hyper-Man]

There is an example of a Counter Strike Martial Maneuver in the Hero System Martial Arts book.  It's basically a better Strike that must immediately follow a successful Block. That means on one Phase the character uses Block and on their next Phase they can use the Counter Strike.

 

There is no simple way to combine an attack & defensive action into one Phase.  You might want to take a closer look at the Trigger Advantage though.

[TheDarkness]

This is where I always get a bit confused.

 

Technically, I could build a dodge and a strike by way of skills as powers. So, CSLs that add up to the added OCV, DCV, and DCs of two moves. And, if I'm not mistaken, technically, I could then link those. They might cost more than buying them as maneuvers, but I don't think there is anything against doing so, at least, not from the 'linked is for powers' perspective.

 

At which point, like other powers, they could be linked.

 

Now, here is where I get a bit confused.

 

I understand that multiple attacks and combined attacks do not allow for defensive maneuvers, so they are straight out.

 

But, I am assuming that I am missing something with linked. So let me pose another example to see if I'm just misunderstanding the advantage. Could you link a small AOE blast to a powerful barrier? And could you abort to that barrier when attacked, and would the blast not occur until your next unaborted phase?

[steriaca]

In my opinion the best way to simulate a counterstrike is a Hand-To-Hand Attack power with the advantage Trigger (to a sussful Block maneuver). See my post of Ace Of Spades for more information (you need to searc).h for him

[TheDarkness]

In my opinion the best way to simulate a counterstrike is a Hand-To-Hand Attack power with the advantage Trigger (to a sussful Block maneuver). See my post of Ace Of Spades for more information (you need to searc).h for him

Just checked it out. Love Deathstroke, fun read.

 

What I'm curious about is, since you can define a skill as a power, especially for him, is it necessary to buy the hth attack when you already paid for strength? Couldn't you just buy a CSL for the attack(heightened OCV, DCV, or an added damage class), then buy skill levels for the dodge or block that make it higher point cost than the attack(if the GM holds to the greater power being linked to)?

 

As you have it, if I understand link correctly, unless you have dodge under your powers, you cannot trigger to it.

[steriaca]

"Super Skill" is only a special effect of the powers the Ace of Spades has.

[TheDarkness]

"Super Skill" is only a special effect of the powers the Ace of Spades has.

Lol! Of course!

[Comic]

You could buy +5 DCV Linked to your HA, as a 'Dodge/Strike'.

 

Of course, in games with AP caps, that'd reduce your HA by 5 DCs below the campaign limit.

[Hugh Neilson]

+5 DCV, Linked to HA, would cost 25/1.5 = 17 points. +5 levels with HA would cost 15 (3 point levels), and allow you to allocate the levels between OCV and DCV at your discretion. I'd pick the more flexible and less expensive option myself.

[pinecone]

+5 DCV, Linked to HA, would cost 25/1.5 = 17 points. +5 levels with HA would cost 15 (3 point levels), and allow you to allocate the levels between OCV and DCV at your discretion. I'd pick the more flexible and less expensive option myself.

Yep, that's the way I'd lean..." I can combine move in all sorts of ways" ...+6 with hth.

[TheDarkness]

+5 DCV, Linked to HA, would cost 25/1.5 = 17 points. +5 levels with HA would cost 15 (3 point levels), and allow you to allocate the levels between OCV and DCV at your discretion. I'd pick the more flexible and less expensive option myself.

But with the second, I would lose the counterattack option, correct?

 

I should clarify, I plan on play testing the build to see how it affects hth combat. So, for the playtest, I'm willing to spend the points and see what they get me. I also will likely use a power pool setup in one of the playtests, with a variety of similar countering options in it(counter-grab with a reversal throw, dodge into countersweeps, stuff like this).

 

I'm mainly playing with this idea as a supplement to the martial arts setup, as obviously, martial maneuvers are heavily discounted, but at the same time, do not benefit from the same flexibility of design as the rest of the Heroes system. Which is the tradoff for their  simplicity. So it makes no sense to buy a strike through powers, but this sort of counterstrike, if one wants to do it, isn't actually possible through the martial arts skills, and must be designed. But to use the discounted skills as powers to do this seems like cheating(and is), so I want to do a proper build. Since this seems exactly the sort of thing that linking does, it seemed like a natural fit.

 

So this would not be to replace the martial maneuvers, but to customize a bit through powers while also buying martial maneuvers and CSLs where they are best suited.

 

Trigger seemed like a bad fit, as adding another roll to combat seemed like a headache I didn't want to play test yet.(the roll to check for accidental triggers). Theoretically, trigger sounded like it could add another element, in that an opponent could make a 'draw' maneuver(as in leaving an opening in the hopes of drawing a particular response) to set off triggers, and link attacks to that. But the thought of building it currently makes my head spin, and would not add a lot, as after an initial attack and abort in response, neither of the two opponents could actually abort anymore, anyway.

 

So I decided on linking.

 

What I'm currently thinking, as far as a build, is to use reduced endurance as a naked advantage to a basic STR attack, linking that naked advantage to the equivalent CSLs for a dodge, and seeing how it goes to start. If it works well(not meaning makes the character invincible, but makes for dynamic play without too much trouble), then I will play with power pools and other options to defray costs, much as one would with any power that one wants, but maybe costs more than one is willing to spend for just one ability, and see how that works.

 

My thinking is that the points might actually be worth it for the chance to strike back on an abort, and might add an interesting dynamic for those characters that focus more on combat skills. Further, it seems to me that, for those with powers, linked powers can have some value, so I wanted to see whether that same value could be passed on to the more skills-based hth fighters. Play testing may prove all this wrong, I'll have to see.

[Hyper-Man]

It might be worthwhile to explain in plain English what you envision this character capable of.  It's possible that you are overlooking something that the core/basic combat maneuvers are already capable of*.

 

*I say this with experience as the original reason I first posted to this forum 12+ years ago was to figure out how to create an ability inspired by Dragonball Z combats where Goku or his opponent would move so fast as to be unseen (Teleport) and reappear behind their opponent to deliver a surprise attack. I wanted to take it one step further and create the ability to fly at a target and deliver a Move Through attack but 'interrupt' the direction that the attack was delivered from via Teleportation.  What I discovered was that there is no simple way to build this effect where it can occur within 1 Phase. And as a result there is no residual 'Flight Velocity' that would contribute to the surprise attack.

 

The bigger lesson I learned from this is that it is far too easy to get into crazy complex minutiae of what can occur in a single Phase.  This is not so bad when using the well developed Multiple Attack rules (the 6e version of Sweep) but can quickly get crazy otherwise.  The way to avoid this temptation into chaos is to think of the HERO Turn as the functional equivalent to the generic 'combat round' used by so many other RPG's.  A SPD 2 character doesn't seem so lame from this point of view.  They can Block AND Attack in the same 'round' for example.

 

Hope this helps.

 

HM

[TheDarkness]

It might be worthwhile to explain in plain English what you envision this character capable of.  It's possible that you are overlooking something that the core/basic combat maneuvers are already capable of*.

 

*I say this with experience as the original reason I first posted to this forum 12+ years ago was to figure out how to create an ability inspired by Dragonball Z combats where Goku or his opponent would move so fast as to be unseen (Teleport) and reappear behind their opponent to deliver a surprise attack. I wanted to take it one step further and create the ability to fly at a target and deliver a Move Through attack but 'interrupt' the direction that the attack was delivered from via Teleportation.  What I discovered was that there is no simple way to build this effect where it can occur within 1 Phase. And as a result there is no residual 'Flight Velocity' that would contribute to the surprise attack.

 

The bigger lesson I learned from this is that it is far too easy to get into crazy complex minutiae of what can occur in a single Phase.  This is not so bad when using the well developed Multiple Attack rules (the 6e version of Sweep) but can quickly get crazy otherwise.  The way to avoid this temptation into chaos is to think of the HERO Turn as the functional equivalent to the generic 'combat round' used by so many other RPG's.  A SPD 2 character doesn't seem so lame from this point of view.  They can Block AND Attack in the same 'round' for example.

 

Hope this helps.

 

HM

Of course, and I appreciate your help.

 

Simply, I want to enable an abort to include an attack. Not an attack at the next available segment(after the aborted segment), but an attack in the segment that the abort occurs in.

 

To clarify the why(and to further cement any reputation I may have gained for verbosity(12d6, reduced endurance, AOE, sticky AND penetrating), there are two reasons:

 

1) myself and my player are both martial artists, and the concept of counter strikes, in most cases, involve the actual counterstrike occuring at the very moment the strike it is countering is at its full extension, and so delaying it until even two segments later makes us go "wait, that's not a counterstrike", which really messes with the narrative for us.

 

2) My theory on the results of playtests makes me feel that a few of the results, if I'm correct, will be useful.  The results I expect to see are:

 

A) First, because to do a build like this will be most cost effective for those in the normal human strength range, it will make the starting Daredevil's particularly effective against thugs, as even their aborted actions will often result in counterattacks that mess up the thugs(given the low quality of thugs these days, I blame Obama). Thus, while the brick of the group is duking it out with someone the starting Batman could not hope to harm, the starting Batman is wading through low level thugs in a thoroughly gratifying way, trying to get to Catwoman, because getting to Catwoman is really a worthy goal in my opinion. In this case, the player does not even need to apply the full DCV that a dodge would have, it could be as low as 1 DCV and still open the opportunity for the counterpunch(given that the thugs are swimming uphill, DCV wise, from the character).

 

An example of this build could be the character having 3 CSLs HA, then having a naked advantage of reduced endurance to their STR based attack linked to those CSLs when they are used for defensive aborts.

 

Second, while it may not be cost effective for bricks at the start, later it would mean that, when faced with speedster's and teleporters that they can hardly ever hit, they at least have more chances to miss, thus hedging one of the most overkill aspects of speedsters and teleporters and forcing smart play over design accounting, given that any roll of three still means a STR 50 punch in the nether regions.

 

This one would probably have a similar build, but might devote some skill levels for OCV as well.

 

C) I think it will lend a dynamism to fights between your Daredevils and your Bullseyes, the so-called normals, by increasing the tit for tat, while all paid for fairly.

 

The only reason I'm using reduced endurance is to make it a naked advantage to STR based attacks, instead of spending the points for another hand attack, since the STR is already bought. So, say my STR gives me a strength 4d6 attack roll, I am not needing to spend the points for another 4d6 HA for my maneuver if I simply use a naked advantage to my STR attacks with it, and reduced endurance fits decently. If my STR were more superhuman, this would be more expensive.

[TheDarkness]

So, the simplest build I'm envisioning, assuming a STR 20 character:

 

15 pts.            3 CSLs, all HTH

5 pts.              naked advantage to STR attack: reduced END(1/4), linked to Defensive Abort with CSLs above(-1/4), no need for proportionality(1/4 less limitation)

 

Now, a more ornate version for a power pool might include more CSLs and more specific linked tasks. For example, say the character also had a nightstick(we'll use club costs here).

 

15 pts.            3 CSLs, all HTH

5 pts.              naked advantage to STR attack: reduced END(1/4), linked to Defensive Abort with CSLs above(-1/4), no need for proportionality(1/4 less limitation)

13                   naked advantage to nightstick attack: reduced endurance, linked to Defensive Abort with CSLs above(-1/4), no need for proportionality(1/4 less limitation)    [the active cost here is the nightstick's active cost, the cost of the STR, and the advantage's cost]

 

The above build allows for an abort followed by an immediate strike, or an abort followed by a strike with the nightstick(assuming it is in hand)

 

Now, at some point, a VPP might be useful, but I have to keep in mind, the active points in the nightstick example is 65, so this might not be as cost effective in that case, I'd have to crunch the numbers, but if the nightstick example is the highest value, then a VPP would need around a 15 point pool and a 65 point control cost, which would put the total cost at around 50, if my numbers are right, and could be higher if I built trip maneuvers with the nightstick or something like that.

[bigbywolfe]

Link is a Limitation that forces you to use one Power when you use another. It doesn't allow you to break the rules and perform actions you normally couldn't do.

 

If you want to Abort to a Defensive Action like Dodge or Block and attack the opponent in the same Phase you need to build it with Trigger.

[Greywind]

What it looks like is you're running into the difference between reality and the game system.

[TheDarkness]

Link is a Limitation that forces you to use one Power when you use another. It doesn't allow you to break the rules and perform actions you normally couldn't do.

 

If you want to Abort to a Defensive Action like Dodge or Block and attack the opponent in the same Phase you need to build it with Trigger.

Ah, I did not realize it was breaking the rules, but now, looking at trigger, I see that, even if the trigger elicits an attack action, it does not count as an attack action.

 

Okay, let me try again:

Character with 20 strength:

 

15 pts.              3 CSLs, all HTH

20 pts.              naked advantage to STR attack: reduced END(1/4), triggered by Defensive Abort with CSLs above when he wishes to use this power(+1/4), trigger takes no time(+1/4), trigger takes a zero phase action to reset(1/4)

 

Okay, I was thinking 5 pts seemed too low, now I get it.

 

The cost of the nightstick version should be frightening, eh?

 

52 pts.              naked advantage to nightstick attack: reduced endurance, triggered by Defensive Abort with CSLs above when he wishes to use this power(+1/4), trigger takes no time(+1/4), trigger takes a zero phase action to reset(1/4)

 

Definitely not something I could see putting 52 points into. Twenty, I could see.

[TheDarkness]

What it looks like is you're running into the difference between reality and the game system.

I actually kind of think for 25 points, a 20 STR character having a chance to attack every time he is attacked and not stunned or KO'ed is kind of worth it for some characters.

 

52 points for the nightstick, not so much.

[Amorkca]

So...

 

If two characters have these abilities, say Daredevil & Bullseye, they could theoretically hit/counter-hit each other in one phase until one is knocked out or stunned?

 

Or am I misreading the whole thread?

[TheDarkness]

So...

 

If two characters have these abilities, say Daredevil & Bullseye, they could theoretically hit/counter-hit each other in one phase until one is knocked out or stunned?

 

Or am I misreading the whole thread?

One attacks, once they attack in a phase, they cannot later in the phase abort to dodge.

 

The other, because he has not attacked in this phase, can abort a future phase in order to dodge now, and has a trigger, if they aren't stunned or KOed in the phase, their trigger allows them an attack. Once they attack, they cannot abort again(and will have no reason to, as the first character already attacked in the phase, and so can do no more).

 

So, at most, each one will attack once.

 

Barring multiple attacks.

 

Or combined attacks.

[TheDarkness]

So, Bullseye swings at Daredevil, Daredevil dodges, his dodge has a trigger that allows him to punch. Then Bullseye becomes bitter because Daredevil didn't hit him harder, kills his girlfriend, but, and this is key, he must do it in a future phase, because he already attacked this phase. No matter though, because she's a ninja who gets resurrected as often as Phoenix. Marvel profits greatly. Movies get made. Stan Lee, for some reason, has to appear in every darn one of them.

[TheDarkness]

Thanks for the help, everyone!

[Greywind]

Not true.

 

Marvel movies without Stan Lee:

 

• "Blade" (New Line Cinema 1998)
• "Blade II" (New Line Cinema 2002)
• "X2" (20th Century Fox 2003)
• "The Punisher" (Lions Gate Films 2004)
• "Blade: Trinity" (New Line Cinema 2004)
• "Elektra" (20th Century Fox 2005)
• "Ghost Rider" (Columbia Pictures 2007)
• "Punisher: War Zone" (Lionsgate 2008)
• "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" (20th Century Fox2009)
• "X-Men: First Class" (20th Century Fox 2011)
• "Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance" (Columbia Pictures 2012)
• "The Wolverine" (20th Century Fox 2013)
• Howard the Duck (1986)
• Captain America (1990)
• Man-Thing (2005)
• The Punisher (1989)

[TheDarkness]

 

Not true.

 

Marvel movies without Stan Lee:

 

• "Blade" (New Line Cinema 1998)
• "Blade II" (New Line Cinema 2002)
• "X2" (20th Century Fox 2003)
• "The Punisher" (Lions Gate Films 2004)
• "Blade: Trinity" (New Line Cinema 2004)
• "Elektra" (20th Century Fox 2005)
• "Ghost Rider" (Columbia Pictures 2007)
• "Punisher: War Zone" (Lionsgate 2008)
• "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" (20th Century Fox2009)
• "X-Men: First Class" (20th Century Fox 2011)
• "Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance" (Columbia Pictures 2012)
• "The Wolverine" (20th Century Fox 2013)
• Howard the Duck (1986)
• Captain America (1990)
• Man-Thing (2005)
• The Punisher (1989)

 

Herewith I shall only respond to lists in either chronological or alphabetical order!