Minion Pool

[bigdamnhero]

A player of mine wants to have a bunch of minions/sidekicks/interns/whatever, which totally fits the character concept. So far he's up to 16 Followers. Of course having 16 Followers on the table would slow combat down to a crawl, so we've agreed he can only have one or two "active" at any one time. So I'm wondering how fair it is to charge him for 16 Followers when 14-15 of them are going to be off-duty most of the time? If the Followers were identical except for the name tag, I might just handwave it; but he definitely wants them to have unique powers/skills/etc. So how might you handle this:

1. Charge for 16 Followers, but with a Limitation for "Only 1-2 at a time"? (And how much would you say that Lim is worth?)
2. Charge for 1 or 2 Followers, and throw on some sort of Variable Advantage? (Again, how much?)
3. Build a Minion VPP, Followers Only (-1), Can only change between scenes (-1/4)? 
4. ...or something else?

Context, if it informs your answer: superheroic game, PCs are high-powered (~500 pts), he wants an array of low-powered minions (~300 pts). Thanks,

[Surrealone]

Followers going into frameworks seems like a huge no-no.

 

If you and the player are both agreed that only 2 followers will tend to be present in a given scene, then I think it would make sense to charge for 2 followers and permit no more ... but to then charge for an advantage that allows them to be different ... and then to limit the followers in such a way that they can only be changed between scene.

 

For guidance on how much the advantage might be (+1/4 ... to possibly as much as +1), I recommend looking at Duplication's 'Altered Duplicates' advantage, as It provides guidance on the % change between duplicates ... something that might make sense to apply to a % change between followers.  Both powers (Duplication and Followers) also cost 1 point per 5 ... so I think it's an apples-to-apples application of the advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

Keep in mind that Followers aren't just a combat asset. They can be prepping and driving vehicles, directing communications, repairing gadgets and weapons, treating injured comrades, doing research, handling public relations, supervising finances... and the more of them you have, the more of those activities they can handle at once.

[bigdamnhero]

Followers going into frameworks seems like a huge no-no.

I agree we're well into "GM Approval Required" territory!

 

For guidance on how much the advantage might be (+1/4 ... to possibly as much as +1), I recommend looking at Duplication's 'Altered Duplicates' advantage, as It provides guidance on the % change between duplicates ... something that might make sense to apply to a % change between followers.  Both powers (Duplication and Followers) also cost 1 point per 5 ... so I think it's an apples-to-apples application of the advantage.

I hadn't thought about that - good idea!

 

Keep in mind that Followers aren't just a combat asset. They can be prepping and driving vehicles, directing communications, repairing gadgets and weapons, treating injured comrades, doing research, handling public relations, supervising finances... and the more of them you have, the more of those activities they can handle at once.

Absolutely. And some of them are doing stuff like that off camera, which does complicate the question. But at least some of them are basically combat sidekicks, so the fact that they're not all in combat at the same time seems like it'd be worth some kind of discount?

[Surrealone]

Absolutely. And some of them are doing stuff like that off camera, which does complicate the question. But at least some of them are basically combat sidekicks, so the fact that they're not all in combat at the same time seems like it'd be worth some kind of discount?

 

As has been pointed out, there's more than just a combat application.  For reasons of both balance and mechanics I think you need to decide how many followers can be in any given scene -- whether it's combat or non-combat -- and start there.   IMHO the build-out is unreasonably/un-necessarily complicated if you want N for combat scenes and Y for non-combat scenes.

 

Keep in mind that part of balance is combat utility versus non-combat utility; a character heavy in one is not necessarily great at the other...

[Scott Baker]

I'm of a mind with Lord Liaden. Pay for all of the followers. There's absolutely nothing that states that they have to ever be in combat with the PC, so there's no reason to reduce the cost. 

[DasBroot]

I actually had this exact situation come up.  We had to sit down and discuss what the player was actually looking for out of the situation and in the end we went with this:

 

Contact (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact is slavishly loyal to character), Organization Contact (x3) (45 Active Points) Roll: 16-

 

And specified that part of the 'extremely useful skills or resources' would occasionally include combat support resources - doing things like securing the perimeter, reporting on activity, etc - and if the need came up the contact organization itself would step into combat at his side with a fully GM built and controlled NPC built to similar points as the rest of the team (so stronger than a follower, but not directly controlled by the player - despite the loyalty).  

 

That might seem like a bargain, and it was, but it was mechanically a lot cleaner than specifically telling him 'please don't do that' if he wanted to field the thirty-two 175 point followers he'd bought.  He was the mastermind he wanted to be as his organization worked in the background and I actually varied the 'combat' NPC depending on circumstance and location - giving me a chance to introduce new characters to the game (They were fond of "Konig Lederhosen" - the Bavarian Brawler, Master of the Sidewalk Shattering Suplex.  He wasn't too bright but when you can head-butt buildings who needs brains?).

[bigdamnhero]

As has been pointed out, there's more than just a combat application.  For reasons of both balance and mechanics I think you need to decide how many followers can be in any given scene -- whether it's combat or non-combat -- and start there.

Fair question. In this case, I think the answer is more-or-less the same for combat or noncombat; I can't think of a situation where he's had more than two Followers in a scene at the same time, to include "bluebooking" what's going on behind the scenes. I expect I'd look at it differently if we were talking about an army of 50-pt secretaries and accountants working behind the scenes, and the base cost would be cheap enough to not matter as much. But we're talking about 300-point supers here, most of whom are built for combat operations.

 

There's absolutely nothing that states that they have to ever be in combat with the PC...

True. But on the flip side, there's no rule saying they can't all be in combat with the PC. So if I impose that restriction, shouldn't the player get some kind of discount for it?

 

I actually had this exact situation come up.  We had to sit down and discuss what the player was actually looking for out of the situation and in the end we went with this:

 

Contact (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact is slavishly loyal to character), Organization Contact (x3) (45 Active Points) Roll: 16-

Interesting solution. I can see that working well for the above-mentioned army of secretaries and accountants. I'd be real hesitant about letting Contacts provide supers-level combat power, but that may just be an "I've never done it that way" moment on my part.

[bigdamnhero]

Thinking about this some more, If we're assuming at least some of the Minions are doing useful stuff behind the scenes even when they're not on camera, then I think I agree the VPP may not be the way to go.

 

I also thought about Summons' Expanded Class Of Beings Advantage, which is +1/2 for a Limited Class of Beings. But again, that mechanic implies only one being is doing stuff at a time. I'm starting to think what I'm looking for is more of a Limitation to reflect the "No more than two on camera at a time" restriction?

[DasBroot]

I looked at it this way: Most combats or stories I provide a similar point value GMPC from a pool of people that the team has helped/worked with before anyway as an interactive mouthpiece and light combat support (no party buffs, no controls - just hitting things) - if the mastermind gets to say 'he works for me' when Konig Lederhosen pile drives Armadillo into the sewer via a street instead of Lederhosen already being on the scene (maybe the one who called the heroes in the first place) I'm ok with that.

 

If you go the 'no more than two' as a limitation route you just have to figure out how limiting that actually is for the character.  On the surface it might seem incredibly limiting - if they're 300 points you've reduced his follower active points from 4800 to 600: a factor of 8. This is 'almost entirely' which is -1.5 to -2 but that doesn't feel right - but if these minions aren't meant to be the core of the character, just an add on, and the player is trustworthy and not going to take that rebate and do something terrible with it I'd consider it.

 

It will come down to other people at the gaming table as much as anything - are they ok with 'Bob' getting 3 turns?  Will they follow suit and have you end up running an army per fight? My golden rule is "When the stars align and your shtick goes off - how much fun is it for everyone else at the table?".  

[Lord Liaden]

In the spirit of, "There's more than one way to do anything in Hero System..."

 

How about purchasing this ability as a Summon Power? As the default, a person can only have as many Summoned beings present at one time as he paid for when building the Power construct. So, your player can Summon (under whatever conditional Limitations you think appropriate, e.g. "locale inhabiting") two of his minions at once... but the Summon could be built with eight Charges, for a total of sixteen minions.

[ghost-angel]

You don't even need Charges for that; There's no reason a Summon can't summon a different Minion with each use, the Summon Beings limiter is specifically on the number present with any given Summon.

 

The drawback is it gets much more expensive when you add on the Loyal and Specific Being Advantages to the base Summon Power. Because otherwise you get a random Minion whenever you call for one, and you have to make a contest of wills to get them to do anything, and they have a bad habit of leaving when the task is technically complete....

 

Summon is a cool construct, but possibly not the best one for this specific job, unless you have dozens, or hundreds, of minions to call on to justify the costs of the Power.

[Scott Baker]

Scott Baker, on 17 Jan 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

There's absolutely nothing that states that they have to ever be in combat with the PC...

True. But on the flip side, there's no rule saying they can't all be in combat with the PC. So if I impose that restriction, shouldn't the player get some kind of discount for it?

 

 

For purposes of game balance during play GMs often "restrict" things that players don't get a limitation for. This is Hero, you can roll your own as you like. 

[Lord Liaden]

You don't even need Charges for that; There's no reason a Summon can't summon a different Minion with each use, the Summon Beings limiter is specifically on the number present with any given Summon.

 

 

Well, that was my reason for putting the Charges Lim on the Power; to reflect that the maximum number the character had to draw from was sixteen.

 

The drawback is it gets much more expensive when you add on the Loyal and Specific Being Advantages to the base Summon Power. Because otherwise you get a random Minion whenever you call for one, and you have to make a contest of wills to get them to do anything, and they have a bad habit of leaving when the task is technically complete....

 

Summon is a cool construct, but possibly not the best one for this specific job, unless you have dozens, or hundreds, of minions to call on to justify the costs of the Power.

 

Just exploring the different possibilities.   You make a good point; OTOH point efficiency isn't always the goal. Sometimes a more expensive construct models what someone wants to do in a way that satisfies them more. YMMV.

[Lucius]

I'd go for a combination of a Contact (for all the behind the scenes stuff) and Summon, but maybe a better solution is Contact and Follower with some Limitations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if anyone else remembers the Variable Babe Pool

[ghost-angel]

Just exploring the different possibilities.   You make a good point; OTOH point efficiency isn't always the goal. Sometimes a more expensive construct models what someone wants to do in a way that satisfies them more. YMMV.

 

Very true; and I definitely like the Summon construct, probably a really good build for a Leader type, a General, President, or someone in charge of a larger organization; A "I have just the people we need for this..." kind of Power.

[bigdamnhero]

I looked at it this way: Most combats or stories I provide a similar point value GMPC from a pool of people that the team has helped/worked with before anyway as an interactive mouthpiece and light combat support (no party buffs, no controls - just hitting things) - if the mastermind gets to say 'he works for me' when Konig Lederhosen pile drives Armadillo into the sewer via a street instead of Lederhosen already being on the scene (maybe the one who called the heroes in the first place) I'm ok with that. 

Makes sense in that context.

 

It will come down to other people at the gaming table as much as anything - are they ok with 'Bob' getting 3 turns?  Will they follow suit and have you end up running an army per fight? 

We already had that conversation, and everyone more or less agreed that one on-table Follower per PC was cool, but anything beyond that was too much. Several other PCs have 1 or 2 Followers as well. Plus, while I don't tend to use GMPCs, I'll often let players run key NPCs just to spread the wealth and give me one less thing to worry about.

 

My golden rule is "When the stars align and your shtick goes off - how much fun is it for everyone else at the table?".  

That is an excellent rule that I am totally stealing!

 

How about purchasing this ability as a Summon Power?

I thought about Summon, but as g-a notes it gets real expensive real quick, so it didn't work in this case. Actually another PC in the same group has a demon summoning power that gives her 1-2 minions on the table...

[Hyper-Man]

I KNOW I am not the only person who originally had this thought when reading the thread title.

 

 

HM

[Lord Liaden]

I was really trying to keep my train of thought away from those things. Thanks a lot.

[Lucius]

 

How about buying one Follower but giving the Follower a Multiform Power?

Not that that specific individual actually changes into other people, but to account for the fact that it won't be the same person each time.

 

Or if you really want to emphasize that there can be several active at once but mostly "off panel" use Duplication, Cannot Recombine, but heavily Limited because the duplicates can never be helping each other in combat.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or do what I do and get a reifier of palindromedaries

[Surrealone]

Am I the only one who is super resistant to the idea of a character paying 1 per 5 for a follower ... and then the follower doing 1 per 5 for a multiform, duplicate, etc?  That just smacks of all kinds of broken, to me....

[ghost-angel]

It's not entirely broken, but it certainly is dangerous territory.

[massey]

Followers going into frameworks seems like a huge no-no.

 

If you and the player are both agreed that only 2 followers will tend to be present in a given scene, then I think it would make sense to charge for 2 followers and permit no more ... but to then charge for an advantage that allows them to be different ... and then to limit the followers in such a way that they can only be changed between scene.

 

For guidance on how much the advantage might be (+1/4 ... to possibly as much as +1), I recommend looking at Duplication's 'Altered Duplicates' advantage, as It provides guidance on the % change between duplicates ... something that might make sense to apply to a % change between followers. Both powers (Duplication and Followers) also cost 1 point per 5 ... so I think it's an apples-to-apples application of the advantage.

I am really, REALLY against this idea. it makes what should be a flavor power into a very expensive ability.

 

Suppose I'm Batman, and I take two Followers (Robin and Batgirl). They are 250 point characters (compared to my 450 point Batman knock-off), and they are mostly the same, but have minor stat and skill differences. Your proposal would potentially double the cost of my Followers, just so I can make some minor variation between the two. It would be significantly cheaper for me to just buy two identical followers that had better abilities than either one.

 

You're charging Batman 110 points (50 for each 250 pt follower, +5 adder for doubling, +1 advantage to vary them) to get two unique individuals (and maybe less if you only make it +1/4 or +1/2). But Bolivar Trask can get two-hundred and fifty identical 350 point Sentinels for that same 110 points.

 

By their nature, Followers aren't always present. They generally have to travel under their own power. They have their own lives, their own concerns and interests. It's perfectly reasonable for the GM to say that not every single Follower can be available for every combat. This isn't something that needs game mechanics to represent. This is part of the conditions the GM establishes when he approves the character for play. "Okay, having 50 followers is fine, but you know they aren't all showing up for combat at once, right?"

[Surrealone]

I am really, REALLY against this idea. it makes what should be a flavor power into a very expensive ability.

 

massey,

As noted in this thread, the player is using followers for 300-point supers.  See this comment:

 

But we're talking about 300-point supers here, most of whom are built for combat operations.

 

 

massey,

Given bigdamnhero's comment which I just quoted ... as well as other text in this thread, it has basically been implied in this thread that some of the followers are ALWYAS present -- much like an entourage.  In such a case the character is basically trying to be a one-man team of sixteen (16) 300-point supers (with himself as the mastermind).  If the aforementioned is true, this has gone beyond a "flavor power" -- and even with limitations on number of followers on scene, the followers likely should be spendy (but not overpriced, if limited).

 

I think we can all agree that the GM is reasonably seeking to limit the ability of the player for reasons of balance and has stopped short of invoking GM fiat.  You may find a +1/4 to +1 advantage painful by itself, but you neglected to consider the mathematical impact of the limitation I suggested ("limit the followers in such a way that they can only be changed between scenes") ... which is likely a -1/4 to -1/2 limitation depending on GM prerogative ... a limitation that would help offset the advantage ... and also avoid cheapening the cost of followers below the raw point cost (which would happen if no advantage is present).

 

Frankly, with a 50% delta in point expenditures on a per-follower build basis (which is a +1/2 advantage) ... and a -1/2 limitation for only two followers on scene and only changeable with scene changes ... the advantage and limitation cancel and the raw point expenditure remains the same!  Assuming all of the followers are mostly human with skills, characteristics, and the like, this is pretty sane.

 

If, however, some of the followers are alien, off-worlders, or vastly different from typical humanoid followers, then perhaps the cost goes up due to an increase in the advantage (to +3/4 or +1).  Even then, the cost stays very reasonable when offset by the limitation ... given that the character is paying (before advantages and limitations) 1 per 5 pts to get an entourage of sixteen (16) 300-point supers, only two of which can be on scene at once (changeable between scenes). 

 

​Plainly put, I don't agree with your assertion that this implementation is a flavor power -- because the above use case clearly isn't.  Also plainly put, it SHOULD be expensive to have that kind of power all the time as an entourage, and the GM -does- need to place limits on it if he's to allow it without outright saying 'no' by GM fiat -- otherwise the game is prone to being woefully unbalanced.

[bigdamnhero]

Am I the only one who is super resistant to the idea of a character paying 1 per 5 for a follower ... and then the follower doing 1 per 5 for a multiform, duplicate, etc?  That just smacks of all kinds of broken, to me....

It would certainly raise a bunch of Stop Signs for me if a player suggested it. But if it was understood that it wasn't really duplication, and I trusted the player not to abuse it...? Maybe.

 

Given bigdamnhero's comment which I just quoted ... as well as other text in this thread, it has basically been implied in this thread that some of the followers are ALWYAS present -- much like an entourage.  In such a case the character is basically trying to be a one-man team of sixteen (16) 300-point supers (with himself as the mastermind).

Yes and no. The player wants to have a variety of minions to choose from, but only wants to have 1 or maybe 2 on the table at any time; he has no desire to actually juggle 17 character sheets at once, and fully understands the effect that would have on combat.

 

I think we can all agree that the GM is reasonably seeking to limit the ability of the player for reasons of balance and has stopped short of invoking GM fiat.

Actually I already have invoked GM fiat by saying "no more than 1-2 Followers on camera per scene." The question I'm asking myself is whether or not the player deserves some sort of discount for my having done so, and if so how much.

 

As far as cost goes, I would say anything that makes the 2 Variable Followers cost more than 16 regular Followers is probably a non-starter.