Selling off MCVs

[massey]

You are forgetting Army Of Darkness. Where he brought out books on engineering, chemistry, and others the create the crazy machinery he ultimately made.

 

Those books also were used in Evil Dead 2, when he modified the chainsaw and his boom stick.

 

So I disagree. There was nothing wrong with his INT. But there was plenty wrong with his sanity.

 

 

 

Clearly a genius.

[Shiva13]

 

Clearly a genius.

 

Forgetting something in a stressful situation is not a measure of someone's intelligence.

 

Anyone can fail an INT roll.

[massey]

Usually I'm the GM.

 

And many posters in this thread seem to forget one of the core rules of the Hero System. "The GM is the final arbiter of the rules."

 

And as a GM, looking at that stunt, I'd tell you to "Go @#$% yourself" And throw you out of the game group.

 

A player committing such an act is "gaming the system", And not actually playing in the campaign that the GM and the other players have worked so hard to carefully craft. They instead are being directly disruptive. And frankly, in my opinion, they deserve the wrath of the whole game group.

 

I had one player in a campaign in the past that pulled this stunt with literally every character they submitted. Regardless of concept. It absolutely was an act to scam extra points through "gaming the system". There was no character concept justification for it at any level.

 

Again, if 6 points is an issue for you, well then I really don't know what to say.  Your players have been very kind to you.

[Shiva13]

Again, if 6 points is an issue for you, well then I really don't know what to say.  Your players have been very kind to you.

 

Far from it. It's just the latest in a long line of annoying things players have tried to pull in my decades of dealing with the Hero System.

 

Some things have been worse than others. But they all add up to increasing my stress level. Instead of contributing to the relaxation I seek in gaming.

 

And 6 points can make a huge difference in play balance. Especially if you have a player prone to pulling the "one point Multipower slot" trick. Meaning, every spare point can be converted into a separate Multipower slot.

[massey]

Forgetting something in a stressful situation is not a measure of someone's intelligence.

 

Anyone can fail an INT roll.

 

Bruce Campbell says: "Ash has a weird kind of appeal, though. He's an idiot, you know? But he's our idiot."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Decision making is an act of will. Acts of will are actions.

 

 

You're misunderstanding how the Hero System works.  You are attributing special effect to mechanic.

[Shiva13]

You're misunderstanding how the Hero System works.  You are attributing special effect to mechanic.

 

I'm misunderstanding nothing. Mechanics were made to represent special effect from the outset. That's their intended design.

 

I've been a Hero Gamer since 1987. Most of the time since, I was a GM. So yes, I know the game and its core concepts pretty intimately.

 

I've also shared a table on numerous occasions with many of the game's contributing authors.

 

So I'd appreciate not being treated like an idiot by the pseudo-intellectual set around here.

[Greywind]

OMCV also represents a character's force of will. A character without sufficient force of will, won't be capable of heroic deeds. Simply because they do not have the force of will to motivate them to do them in the first place.

 

I thought that was what EGO was...

[Shiva13]

I thought that was what EGO was...

 

It was. When there were still Figured Characteristics. Now? Its former functions are divided between multiple characteristics.

[Greywind]

Not seeing a basis for that belief.

 

 

EGO: Determines character’s resistance to most Mental Powers, provides EGO Rolls
OMCV: Indicates the character’s accuracy in Mental combat
DMCV: Indicates how hard it is to hit the character in Mental combat

 

Ego represents a character’s mental strength

and strength of will. EGO helps a character

when he undergoes a test of willpower, becomes

wounded, resists interrogation or Mental Powers,

or tries to overcome his Psychological Complica-

tions (see 6E1 425). EGO has a Base Value of 10;

each +1 point of EGO costs 1 Character Point.

 

Offensive Mental Combat Value

represents a character’s general

accuracy in Mental Combat. It’s used

to make Mental Attack Rolls, but

does not have a Characteristic Roll.

OMCV has a Base Value of 3; each

+1 point of OMCV costs 3 Character

Points.

See 6E2 39 regarding how OMCV

is modified and reduced.

 

Defensive Mental Combat Value

represents how difficult it is to hit

a character in Mental Combat. It

factors into Mental Attack Rolls

made against him, but does not have

a Characteristic Roll. DMCV has

a Base Value of 3; each +1 point of

DMCV costs 3 Character Points.

See 6E2 39 regarding how DMCV

is modified and reduced.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm misunderstanding nothing. Mechanics were made to represent special effect from the outset

 

You have that backward.  You build the mechanic and pick a special effect to represent it.  That's why there's 100 ways to build anything in Hero.  When someone asks "how do I build a taser in Hero" you don't get "look up taser!" you get "energy blast, or NND, or AVAD vs power defense, or drain, or transform to stunned target, or..." there are many ways to represent any concept.

 

You are insisting that OMCV must only and always without exception represent one special effect.  That's not how Hero works.  You have the mechanic to simulate how the character interacts with the game at the rules level, and the concept and special effects that simulate how and why it works at a roleplaying and idea level.

[Shiva13]

The GM is the final arbiter of the rules. Nothing "overrules" the GM. If a GM catches you doing something cheesey, they have every right and obligation to say "no". And that "no" is the final word.

 

I'm not going to sit here and continue to argue with people who seem to ignore that centerpiece of the Hero System rules.

 

The GM is the law. They override the rulebook. You don't like it? Find another group.

 

But I will say this one thing: No GM has to sit and just suck whatever exploit a player thinks is "clever". No GM should ever be brow-beaten and bullied by players looking to be exploitive of "imperfections" in the rules. A GM has a right to have fun too. And that behavior by players kills the fun of the game for GMs.

[ghost-angel]

I don't think anyone's arguing that point...

 

What we are saying is that occasionally your die hard definition of an exploit isn't going to hold true for all games and all groups; But yet you seem to be speaking with 100% authority at a RAW System Level vs Your Table Label of arbitration.

 

We get it - you wouldn't allow it. Doesn't mean it's not viable somewhere else.

[Christopher R Taylor]

We get it - you wouldn't allow it. Doesn't mean it's not viable somewhere else.

 

 

Right, I'm fine if you don't want that in your game.  Its your game, you can say no and you don't even have to explain why.  And players can decline to play by the same standards, if they wish although this would be an awful petty reason to do so.

 

But claiming that your definition of OMCV and Ego is rules and the way the game works is just not accurate.

[Shiva13]

But claiming that your definition of OMCV and Ego is rules and the way the game works is just not accurate.

 

In your opinion. But frankly that doesn't matter a hill of beans unless the GM agrees with you.

 

Trying to force your opinion on a GM that doesn't agree with you is completely out of line. It's being argumentative and disruptive to the campaign in question. And that GM has every right to send you packing.

 

As a GM, I have the right to define the rules as I see fit. That means making my own interpretations based on the rules as written and how I want them to work for my campaign.

 

The rulebook NEVER overrules the GM. Read Rule 0. Burn that into your memory. Everything else in the rulebooks are merely suggestions.

[ghost-angel]

now you appear to be arguing just to argue.

 

Again - no one disagrees with the statement that the GM is the final arbiter.

 

We're saying that the blanket decision that selling OMCV across all games from all GMs, forever and ever is being a munchkin or "gaming the system", as you implied, is not true.

[massey]

In your opinion. But frankly that doesn't matter a hill of beans unless the GM agrees with you.

 

Trying to force your opinion on a GM that doesn't agree with you is completely out of line. It's being argumentative and disruptive to the campaign in question. And that GM has every right to send you packing.

 

As a GM, I have the right to define the rules as I see fit. That means making my own interpretations based on the rules as written and how I want them to work for my campaign.

 

The rulebook NEVER overrules the GM. Read Rule 0. Burn that into your memory. Everything else in the rulebooks are merely suggestions.

Shiva, I think it's safe to say that none of us WANT to play in games you GM.

[CptPatriot]

I think the main point Shiva is saying that unless the character concept submitted justifies the need to drop the appropriate MCV stats, then it is munchkin behavior.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Possibly, but as munchkin goes, 9 points isn't exactly breaking anything.

[Shiva13]

Shiva, I think it's safe to say that none of us WANT to play in games you GM.

 

SInce my last campaign detonated because of constant munchkin behavior by a couple of players, I have become very choosey about who I game with.

 

Unless I have known the players in question a long time. And have great communication with them, I wouldn't even consider GMing again.

 

At this stage of my life. I believe I have every right to be extremely picky about who I game with.

[CptPatriot]

9 points by itself, maybe not, but Munchkins rarely stop at 1 vector of munchkinism. They will try doing it every chance they can that makes sense.

[Shiva13]

9 points by itself, maybe not, but Munchkins rarely stop at 1 vector of munchkinism. They will try doing it every chance they can that makes sense.

 

cptpatriot is right. Munchkins rarely stop at just one vector of munchinism. Usually they throw everything they can at the GM. Leaving the GM to make sense of their mess,

 

Having been on the receiving end. I can honestly say it is not any fun to deal with.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure but all that is a problem with munchkins, not selling off MCV

[Lucius]

 

"We now join our correspondent reporting live from the front lines of the War on Straw."

 

Thank you. First let me reassure our listeners that I am safe. Except for those unfortunates made of straw, the battle at this point seems more depressing and even boring more than it is dangerous and terrifying. For the men of straw, though, the assault is ongoing and relentless.

 

"What about reports we heard that the cavalry had actually taken one hundred percent casualties? From where you stand does that seem true, that they were entirely wiped out?"

 

That's not exactly true, but it IS true that the cavalry is no longer functioning as cavalry, if they ever did in this battle. The one hundred percent casualty rate is true only of the HORSES. The horses are really taking a beating and it goes on and on. Despite the fact they seem to all be dead.

 

"Would you say then that big losers in this conflict are horses and straw men?"

 

Calling them losers implies they were ever actually fighting. Horse carcasses and straw men are the victims. I don't see any clear winners.

 

"Do you have any fresh insights to share with our listeners?"

 

Nothing they haven't heard from me before. Signing off now from the front lines of the War on Straw, I am

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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[CptPatriot]

We've discussed the points of view and offered our suggestions. Before this conversation gets any more volatile, can we lock this thread please?