Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[zslane]

So let me get this straight: everyone acknowledges that without a profound change in custodianship of the Hero System, be that by means of an influx of capital or a change of ownership, nothing is going to happen with sufficient motive power to push the system and the brand into a bright, shiny future, and yet we are still debating what should be done when this unlikely miracle occurs?

[Surrealone]

zslane,

Apparently some people feel that individuals should donate their time and effort to help the current owners of the copyright(s) see an uptick in usage.  While noble-sounding, there's real work involved, and the only people who will see financial upside from that work (and the resulting uptick in usage of Hero System -- i.e. uptick in sales) are the owners of the copyright(s)... i.e. NOT the donors of the time/effort.

 

I'd only feel comfortable volunteering time/effort on such a project if the Hero System content/copyrights were first placed into the public domain -- because I have a bit of a problem with one or more individuals receiving financial upside from the fruits of donated time/effort -- rather than the donors of that time/effort receiving it (or the upside being pumped back into the project and no one receiving it).

 

Anyone care to wager on the probability of THAT (public domain tidbit) happening?  I don't.  But unless it does, I tend to feel that the people who own the content can do their own work for their own financial upside ... and/or pay others a fair/reasonable wage to do work to help drive their financial upside.  Capitalism, ya' know?

[Tasha]

zslane,

Apparently some people feel that individuals should donate their time and effort to help the current owners of the copyright(s) see an uptick in usage.  While noble-sounding, there's real work involved, and the only people who will see financial upside from that work (and the resulting uptick in usage of Hero System -- i.e. uptick in sales) are the owners of the copyright(s)... i.e. NOT the donors of the time/effort.

 

I'd only feel comfortable volunteering time/effort on such a project if the Hero System content/copyrights were first placed into the public domain -- because I have a bit of a problem with one or more individuals receiving financial upside from the fruits of donated time/effort -- rather than the donors of that time/effort receiving it (or the upside being pumped back into the project and no one receiving it).

 

Anyone care to wager on the probability of THAT (public domain tidbit) happening?  I don't.  But unless it does, I tend to feel that the people who own the content can do their own work for their own financial upside ... and/or pay others a fair/reasonable wage to do work to help drive their financial upside.  Capitalism, ya' know?

 

Who in the world said that?

 

Steve Long is one of the owners. He also donates his time, AFAIK he gets no pay for doing so.

 

Like most RPG companies, Hero is doing Kickstarters to finance their books. There is at least one Licencee doing something similar. For the most part the Kickstarters have been successful (ex Mythic Hero). Other Licencees are producing books they sell on PDF and Print on Demand.

 

You aren't going to see the kind of financing that books got in the old days. Heck, the profit margins are far lower on RPG books than they were in the past. Not many Game companies can afford to pay people to work in an official office.

 

Now some fans have volunteered to Write some Beginners Adventures. From what I see of those threads they are not being asked to do so by any of the IP holders.

 

I can't understand why you think that giving up what's left of Hero's IP would help the company. I could understand selling part of it, but IMHO that's a bit short sighted.

 

I do understand your frustration that the game you love seems to be on a slow burn for releases. All you can do to change that is to buy what books are being published. The more demand for product there is, the more likely there will be more produced. Also, if you have the talent for writing. Write some content, sell it and make some money and boost your favorite game. Talk Hero up on Social Media, ask Kickstarter creators that are creating multi system supplements for Hero Support (I do this and have seen more than one project add Hero System support after people on this board also asked for it). Basically we have to be evangelists of the system. Because, if we don't play and get others to play then what life hero has left will go away due to lack of support.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hero has an excellent licensing system by which you can create content for the game and sell it, they will put it on their catalog and take part of the sales, you get the bulk.  So there's no "do stuff for free and they get the profit" here.  Like I've said before: if you want the game to prosper, what are you doing about it?

 

Not "post moar on the forum boards!!" What are you doing to make it happen?

[Doc Democracy]

Christopher makes a good point and that only hits the financial side. Capitalism is often about exploiting others for your own gain, part of the system right there. Everywhere in the system are people producing for less financial gain than others. However in many cases you see that the gains of those producers are not strictly financial. Kudos and reputation and skill building are all decent returns.

 

Many gamers are frustrated authors, designers, artists etc. This is a great opportunity to write, design and draw for an established brand and system. For the odd person it might be the first steps on a writing career like Steve's. This could be viewed as an opportunity rather than potential exploitation.

 

Even if you have no pretensions to a game design career then there is grand tradition of fan based material produced for the benefit of the whole community.

 

I think it is potentially mean-spirited to dissuade people to participate unless they see hard cash (especially when that hard cash is increasingly scarce).

 

Doc

 

PS: and never has my sig been so relevant to the theme of a discussion on the boards!

[Markdoc]

Agreed. A while back, I wrote up one of my old Fantasy Hero campaigns: Adventures, maps, backgrounds, equipment, NPCs, GMs notes, etc and made it available to GMs. Essentially it was an adventure path before that concept was formalised: a pick-up-and-run series of adventures designed to take PCs from 100 points to 250+ points over the course of a couple of years's regular play. There was clearly interest. I know a few GMs on these boards used it, and I distributed more than 350 copies, even though marketing was restricted to having it on my website or on a few of the fan websites that sprang up (ie: essentially nothing. The GMs who asked for it, found it themselves).

 

If even a quarter of those GMs actually ended up running the game, that translated to several hundred Hero system players. And given the comments I got back from GMs who did run the game, a significant number of them were new to Hero system and so were most of their players.

 

The catch, of course, is that I was giving it away for free: I have no idea how many people would have paid for it. Given the amount of work required, I am pretty sure it would not have been commercially worthwhile even if they all had paid for it. So to echo what Christopher says, if we want this sort of material to be available, we need to make it ourselves

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Or start your own project.  It has never been easier to write, design, publish, and sell products before in the history of mankind.

 

 

Many gamers are frustrated authors, designers, artists etc.

And this is part of the problem.

 

I've been hanging around some in RPG net. The role playing section is divided into three sections(forums) -

D&D

Everything else

Game Design

 

An entire forum, of people creating their own individual games.

Did I say upsteam that everybody and their brother and the dog was playing D&D? They are, but everybody else and their other brother's dog is trying to put out a new game.

 

All the people who might otherwise get into Hero - the tinkerers, the tweakers, do-it-myselfers who say

"no, that's not what an Elf or a Vampire or a Dragon should be like, I'm going to present my OWN vision of it"-

 

They're all too busy cobbling together their own complete rules sets to pay attention to Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that's only one aspect of the problem

[Joe Walsh]

 For the odd person it might be the first steps on a writing career like Steve's.

 

Is it necessary to be odd, or is it just helpful?

[Doc Democracy]

Is it necessary to be odd, or is it just helpful?

I think if you are bog standard you ain't gonna make it. You need some kind of odd! :-)

[Doc Democracy]

All the people who might otherwise get into Hero - the tinkerers, the tweakers, do-it-myselfers who say"no, that's not what an Elf or a Vampire or a Dragon should be like, I'm going to present my OWN vision of it"-They're all too busy cobbling together their own complete rules sets to pay attention to Hero.

And that is perhaps a market for HERO in itself.

 

Build your own system, powered by HERO. If you showed those folk how to utilise the toolkit, how to adapt the underlying system, they could save long hours of play testing because that has been built into the toolkit.

 

They could instead focus on the skin that wraps around the framework...

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

Many gamers are frustrated authors, designers, artists etc. This is a great opportunity to write, design and draw for an established brand and system. For the odd person it might be the first steps on a writing career like Steve's. This could be viewed as an opportunity rather than potential exploitation.

And that's the nutshell of capitalism that isn't taught or understood: what looks like exploitation is in fact opportunity.  Starting out at the bottom isn't being a loser, its being a level 1 worker, at the beginning of your quest.  You're not being cruelly abused by your boss, you're gaining skills, learning, studying, moving up in "levels" and questing for your ambition.

 

But even if you don't aspire to being a great game writer or whatever, putting out scenarios and supplements can be pretty cheap and then its just (slow, trickling) profit because it costs you nothing to maintain a pdf copy and POD service indefinitely.  Putting Hero product on the shelf - especially good quality, in demand product - helps the gaming hobby and Hero games in particular tremendously.  If there's 300 products on that virtual shelf, it means easier to get into the game and makes it seem more popular and attractive.

 

Did I say upsteam that everybody and their brother and the dog was playing D&D? They are, but everybody else and their other brother's dog is trying to put out a new game.

That's the other side of the medal, unfortunately.  That's part of the problem with how easy it is to publish today and it hurts the market.  Everyone is playing their own cobbled up version of a gam instead of the published ones.  And that means people aren't buying product.

 

But as MarkDoc says... perhaps that's a marketing edge, an opportunity.  All those worldbuilders out there, all those creative writing minds, here's your metastructure to make your own game, without having to build and balance your own rules!

 

I'm pondering the best way to present that.  Fantasy seems the most popular build-your-own genre, so maybe a Fantasy Hero book giving the skeleton and guts to adapt to your own world, as well as tips using the system and suggestions.  Here's what the stats are, and what they can be understood as or used in your world!  How to use the power building rules to create your magic system!

[Vondy]

And that's the nutshell of capitalism that isn't taught or understood: what looks like exploitation is in fact opportunity.  Starting out at the bottom isn't being a loser, its being a level 1 worker, at the beginning of your quest.  You're not being cruelly abused by your boss, you're gaining skills, learning, studying, moving up in "levels" and questing for your ambition.

 

But even if you don't aspire to being a great game writer or whatever, putting out scenarios and supplements can be pretty cheap and then its just (slow, trickling) profit because it costs you nothing to maintain a pdf copy and POD service indefinitely.  Putting Hero product on the shelf - especially good quality, in demand product - helps the gaming hobby and Hero games in particular tremendously.  If there's 300 products on that virtual shelf, it means easier to get into the game and makes it seem more popular and attractive.

 

That's the other side of the medal, unfortunately.  That's part of the problem with how easy it is to publish today and it hurts the market.  Everyone is playing their own cobbled up version of a gam instead of the published ones.  And that means people aren't buying product.

 

But as MarkDoc says... perhaps that's a marketing edge, an opportunity.  All those worldbuilders out there, all those creative writing minds, here's your metastructure to make your own game, without having to build and balance your own rules!

 

I'm pondering the best way to present that.  Fantasy seems the most popular build-your-own genre, so maybe a Fantasy Hero book giving the skeleton and guts to adapt to your own world, as well as tips using the system and suggestions.  Here's what the stats are, and what they can be understood as or used in your world!  How to use the power building rules to create your magic system!

 

Personally, I'd be happy to break even on a supplement.

 

Worst case scenario: the sales pay for me to get some cool art done.

[Vondy]

Does anyone have a publication format .pdf or word file with sidebars?

[ghost-angel]

I have some In-Design Templates with sidebars of various sizes, it can create a PDF. But that's it.

[Vondy]

I have some In-Design Templates with sidebars of various sizes, it can create a PDF. But that's it.

 

Interested in layout work?

[ghost-angel]

Depends entirely on size & deadlines. I have work for Denver Comic Con that's taking most of my free project until Mid June.

[Vondy]

Depends entirely on size & deadlines. I have work for Denver Comic Con that's taking most of my free project until Mid June.

 

I'm not that fast. Will PM you.

[zslane]

You aren't going to see the kind of financing that books got in the old days.

But why not? If the hobby/industry is as healthy and heavily populated today as it was 20 years ago, there is no reason for any aspect of the business to be different than in "the old days". There are some here trying very hard to convince us all that the hobby is not in decline and is as popular now as it ever was. If this is so, why would a game as well developed and well known as the Hero System find it impossible to reach the same publication numbers as in the 4th ed. era?

 

Or are we supposed to believe that D&D and Pathfinder have 99% of the market today, rather than only 70% of the market that D&D had 20 years ago, leaving everyone that used to thrive in the other 30% now scrambling to survive on their tiny slice of the remaining 1%? If this is true, then there is literally nothing that can be done to meaningfully fix the "health issues" of a system that is being nudged out of existance by a de facto monopoly.

[Vondy]

But why not? If the hobby/industry is as healthy and heavily populated today as it was 20 years ago, there is no reason for any aspect of the business to be different than in "the old days". There are some here trying very hard to convince us all that the hobby is not in decline and is as popular now as it ever was. If this is so, why would a game as well developed and well known as the Hero System find it impossible to reach the same publication numbers as in the 4th ed. era?

 

Or are we supposed to believe that D&D and Pathfinder have 99% of the market today, rather than only 70% of the market that D&D had 20 years ago, leaving everyone that used to thrive in the other 30% now scrambling to survive on their tiny slice of the remaining 1%? If this is true, then there is literally nothing that can be done to meaningfully fix the "health issues" of a system that is being nudged out of existance by a de facto monopoly.

 

One simple answer is competition and ease of bringing a product to market. In the "old days" you were restricted to traditional publishing, had limited production tools to DIY with, and had to have the capital in hand. As a result, there were a few big publishers who dominated the market. Today, any johnny come lately with gumption, a layout program, and an internet connection can publish. There is electronic format, POD, and traditional publishing. On top of that, there are platforms like kickstarter and their ilk that allow you to push an idea without capital in hand. The result? There are a gazillion tiny DIY shops flooding the market for games. The answer to your question is simply MARKET SHARE. The market may be the same size or slightly larger, but consumers are dividing their dollars between a greater variety of products (and producers). Traditional table top gaming has very much become a boutique / cottage industry rather than a "publishing house" industry. Unless you have the dollars to support a publishing house (and that means its one part of a bigger business in most cases) your option is to be a writer-editor who outsources a lot of work (and crowd-sources a lot of funding). Unless you are a big company that has product well-beyond your table-top game, you probably don't have the deep pockets to support a full-time staff.

[zslane]

Wow, I am way out of touch then.

 

I am incredulous that a thousand tiny, no-name boutique games can find enough of a following to compete with established names like D&D, GURPS, or Champions. My feeling is that gamers who jump on the bandwagon of whatever shiny new Kickstarter-based RPG comes along every few months are not serious gamers at all, but casual dabblers who like collecting boutique products more than they like playing well-designed RPGs from reputable designers with a proven track record.

 

If so, then it isn't just the Hero System that is in trouble, it is the entire industry, because there is no stability in such an environment.

[Vondy]

Wow, I am way out of touch then.

 

I am incredulous that a thousand tiny, no-name boutique games can find enough of a following to compete with established names like D&D, GURPS, or Champions. My feeling is that gamers who jump on the bandwagon of whatever shiny new Kickstarter-based RPG comes along every few months are not serious gamers at all, but casual dabblers who like collecting boutique products more than they like playing well-designed RPGs from reputable designers with a proven track record.

 

If so, then it isn't just the Hero System that is in trouble, it is the entire industry, because there is no stability in such an environment.

Well, one example of a very successful botique game shop with outsourced work is the savage world's crowd. The Giants are stable because their table top RPG'S are only one of a diverse brand. FFG, for instance, makes a ton of money on board and tactical games and leverages licensing (star wars! and cthulu). Wizards? Magic is a huge revenue stream. And they STILL outsource art and a lot of writing on the RPG side. Hero is Jason and zero full time staff. Green Ronin doesn't have much staff, either. They have a license that drives the sakes they pay their freelancers with (DC). Hero is Jason and a warehouse. Without a big license infusion, it's fan - driven products and profit sharing that will get product to market. The only problem I see is that means there isn't a line developer building a consistent set of products.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If so, then it isn't just the Hero System that is in trouble, it is the entire industry, because there is no stability in such an environment. 

Well in one sense, all of publishing is in trouble, the way you mean it.  Not just games, all publishing, from newspapers to magazines to books.

 

In another sense there's never been a better time for games because there's so many options, so much creativity, so many interesting things going on that not only do gamers have tons of fun options, but publishers can do what they never have before.  30 years ago, I couldn't have gotten Hero Games to put my stuff on their catalog and license it, sell it in their own personal store, and reach the entire planet, no matter how hard Rob Bell tried.  20 years ago I could't have even have published what I do now.

[Tasha]

Well, one example of a very successful botique game shop with outsourced work is the savage world's crowd. The Giants are stable because their table top RPG'S are only one of a diverse brand. FFG, for instance, makes a ton of money on board and tactical games and leverages licensing (star wars! and cthulu). Wizards? Magic is a huge revenue stream. And they STILL outsource art and a lot of writing on the RPG side. Hero is Jason and zero full time staff. Green Ronin doesn't have much staff, either. They have a license that drives the sakes they pay their freelancers with (DC). Hero is Jason and a warehouse. Without a big license infusion, it's fan - driven products and profit sharing that will get product to market. The only problem I see is that means there isn't a line developer building a consistent set of products.

 

Also I believe that Jason's more or less full time job is Indie Press Revolution. Which is a competitor to Drive Thru RPG. He's THE person for Hero, but he's also THE person for IPR.

[Surrealone]

Also I believe that Jason's more or less full time job is Indie Press Revolution. Which is a competitor to Drive Thru RPG. He's THE person for Hero, but he's also THE person for IPR.

 

And there are no PoD links/mechanisms via Indie Press Revolution for presently PDF-only Hero System books available on this herogames.com site?  Now THAT is irony....

[Christopher R Taylor]

Definitely adding at least links to POD would be good