Nothere Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I don't know how things work in 6th edition so I'm curious. How many iterations of summon would you allow? For example Character summons General who summons 4 colinals who summon 16 majors And so on. Would you let it go as far as the player would pay points, cut it off at the first or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I personally would stop at 8. IMO, any more than that is just OP, and usually 8 is slightly OP, too. This is the reason why I hate summon, and, partly, the reason I never use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 At that rate, by the time you get to the enlisted ranks you have a squadron. More to the point, Advantages and Limitations aside, and speaking generally (ha) every 1 pt spent on Summoning the general gets you 5 pts of general, who can spend those for 25 pts of colonel, who can spend those for 125 of major, meaning you get a really major return on that initial investment of 1 pt. And at 625 pts in the captain for just 1 pt the original summoner spent, you can get Captain America. Nesting point breaks have an exponential effect. Like buying a Follower and having the follower buy a Base and having the Base buy a Computer, which I believe is explicitly forbidden. Now, there can be drawbacks to the kind of Summoning you talk about - it takes time for each summonee to summon the next summonee, passing orders down the line eats up a task at each level and runs the risk of your intentions being garbled or deliberately subverted, etc - so I suppose it's possible I'd allow something like this. But it definitely has potential to be unbalancing. I wouldn't blame someone for saying "no way" and not even considering it. Lucius Alexander Summon Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I personally would stop at 8. IMO, any more than that is just OP, and usually 8 is slightly OP, too. This is the reason why I hate summon, and, partly, the reason I never use it. Over Production? On the Pill? Operating Perilously? Orientation Program? Oscillating Periods? Opus the Penguin? Lucius Alexander Offending Palindromedaries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Over Production? On the Pill? Operating Perilously? Orientation Program? Oscillating Periods? Opus the Penguin? Lucius Alexander Offending Palindromedaries? Not what I meant... I meant that I would allow on character to have a total summon capacity of 8. If he can summon one, then his summoned can summon 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I usually require that summons be restricted to a predefined set of summonable creatures, which are basically not going to be able to summon anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I recently suggested El Rey, a powered armor user in Create A Villian Theam thread. One of the things he can 'do' is to drop a golden tube which unfoldes into robots (basically a summon on a focus). Logically, the robots can not summon other robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Not what I meant... I meant that I would allow on character to have a total summon capacity of 8. If he can summon one, then his summoned can summon 7. What I meant to say was: I have absolutely no idea what "OP" stands for or means. Will you please tell me? Lucius Alexander I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "Overworked Palindromedary" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Original Post, or Original Poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 Original Post, or Original Poster. That's what I'd usually take it to mean, but.... I personally would stop at 8. IMO, any more than that is just OP, and usually 8 is slightly OP, too. This is the reason why I hate summon, and, partly, the reason I never use it. Somehow that doesn't seem to make sense in this context. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks it might mean "Over Powered" which does make sense in context.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 Power wise, there is no such thing as to much summoning. Unfortunately, control wise, there is such a thing. What other powers can be as much of a problem? Me thinks duplication is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 OP: Over Powered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 How many iterations of summon would you allow? Hmm...interesting question. As far as I know, there's nothing in the rules as written in any edition to prohibit that, apart from the standard "the GM can nix anything that seems unbalanced." Personally I've never allowed a summoned being to summon additional beings, in the same way I don't let Followers have their own Followers, Bases, etc. (Vehicles maybe, if it's something like a motorcycle only the Follower can use.) So my initial thought would be to nix it up front. Tho it might be an interesting build if "I Summon An Army" is part of the character concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 (edited) Out of curiosity, I ran some quick numbers. Primary character summons 1 General, who summons 4 Colonels, each of whom Summon 4 subordinates, and so on down the line. Say each subordinate is built on 25-fewer points than the summoner, starting with 275-pt Very Powerful Heroic, and working your way down to 100-pt Competent Normals. To make it work, you'd need to have Loyal at each level which increases the costs. Rank Summons Pts Ea. Base Cost AP Ea. # Ea. Total AP Total # Character 1x General 275 55 83 1 83 1 General 4x Brigades 250 50 75 4 85 4 Brigade Commander 4x Battalions 225 45 68 4 78 16 Battalion Commander 4x Companies 200 40 60 4 70 64 Company Commander 4x Platoons 175 35 53 4 63 256 Platoon Leader 4x Squads 150 30 45 4 55 1024 Squad Leader 4x Teams 125 25 38 4 48 4096 Team Leader 4x Privates 125 25 38 4 48 16384 So you wind up with an army of 21,845 - not bad for an initial investment of 83 AP! (And yes, I'm aware that organizational structure matches no armies in history, but just to keep things simple.) The catch is depending on what kind of Limitations you want to put on the Summons (Extra Time? Must Inhabit Locale?), the Summon could eat up 30-40% of the character points at each level, reducing their effectiveness. So you might wind up increasing the character points at each level, which in turn increases the costs... Interesting exercise! Munchkiney as all hell, but fun to play around with! Edit: Sorry, took a few tries to get the table to display correctly. Edited February 28, 2016 by bigdamnhero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 OK, I'm having WAY too much fun with this... Say you don't care about each higher rank being built on more points, and just want to Summon an army of 100-point Competent Normals, and you want to add the cost of the Summons on top of that so you have a full 100-points for combat skills. And we also want them to stay around longer, so we increase the number of tasks they'll complete before disbanding. And you want to throw on some reasonable Limitations so the Summoning isn't completely magical and instantaneous So the Primary Character buys: Summon General: Summon 117-point General, Loyal (x4 as many tasks; +1) (48 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), OAF (Radio; -1), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2) [12 Real Points] The General, and each subordinate rank buys: Summon Subordinates: Summon 4x 117-point Subordinates, Loyal (x4 as many tasks; +1) (68 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), OAF (Radio; -1), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2) [17 Real Points] All the way down to Team Leaders, who save 2 RP because they only have to Summon 100-point Privates (who don't need to buy Summons). So 12 Character Points and a few minutes and you too can have your own army! Yeeeeaaaaah, that seems just a teensey bit broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 28, 2016 Report Share Posted February 28, 2016 So 12 Character Points and a few minutes and you too can have your own army! Yeeeeaaaaah, that seems just a teensey bit broken. But only if you happen to already be on a military base where the soldiers are. So, not so much calling up an army, as taking command of an army that's already there. How much is the Perk cost for Rank: General? Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says oh yeah? You and whose army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 By the way, I was using OP as Overpowered. Also, Military Rank: General has a cost of 5 points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nothere Posted February 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 Like I said I don't know how it works in 6th I only have 5th, so I'm forced to ask in 6th a summoned can only perform a set number of tasks before leaving? And if so what counts? If I say General order your men to make a half move, shout, and attack is that 3 tasks, 2, or 1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 That depends upon your GM. I would personally count it as one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted March 1, 2016 Report Share Posted March 1, 2016 But only if you happen to already be on a military base where the soldiers are. So, not so much calling up an army, as taking command of an army that's already there. Ah, but you'll notice I specifically did not take Arrives Under Own Power... Like I said I don't know how it works in 6th I only have 5th, so I'm forced to ask in 6th a summoned can only perform a set number of tasks before leaving? It's the same in both editions: "If the Summoner wins the contest, the Summoned being must obey him for a number of tasks equal to the Summoner’s EGO/5." [5ER p233 or 6e1 p288] And if so what counts? If I say General order your men to make a half move, shout, and attack is that 3 tasks, 2, or 1? In both books, the next page has guidance on what constitutes a task, and states that each Phase on combat generally counts as a task, so I'd say that counts as 1. Summon didn't really change much (at all?) between 5th & 6th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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